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2013 - Week 1: Thoughts after rewatching the game...

  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,043
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

GB was keyed to stop the run. I find it hard to fault Kap for pushing the ball down the field. He did it well and he did it accurately. We complain about QBs for years checking down, and now we finally have one pushing the ball down the field and we still complain. FWIW, I remember on the McDonald drop (short-route) the announcers noted that Kap had an open option deep but he went with the safer, sure-thing. Much ado about nothing, imo.
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.


On the list of things that would upset me about a QB, keeping his eyes deeper down the field is pretty low on the list.

There is a reason he has a CAREER 8.7 yards per attempt as a starter (and his 8.3 would have led the NFL last year if he'd thrown enough passes).
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

Next to turnovers the stat the most corresponds with victories is explosive plays. Like you said, Green Bay was down two men and Kap and the coaches did the exact right thing... Attack the weak spot. The Term greedy will only apply if Kap continues that trend when there is nothing there and starts forcing the ball. He didn't do that yesterday so its pretty silly to complain about lack of check downs.
He kept many plays alive w/his legs scrambling.

Remember when Alex almost always went to the shorter route guy and we invariably ended up w/ a 3 yard gain.

Kap is doing just fine.
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

Next to turnovers the stat the most corresponds with victories is explosive plays. Like you said, Green Bay was down two men and Kap and the coaches did the exact right thing... Attack the weak spot. The Term greedy will only apply if Kap continues that trend when there is nothing there and starts forcing the ball. He didn't do that yesterday so its pretty silly to complain about lack of check downs.

The reason why I take issue with Kaepernick's approach is that next week against Seattle, they are going to take away a lot of the deep passes. Seattle's been susceptible to Frank Gore and the rushing game, which is essential to getting things going in the hysteria of C-Link Stadium. Greg Roman's gameplan last year was pretty much the opposite of what seems smart; pre-snap motion on every play, taking the play clock down to almost nothing on every play. So what if our offense needs more time to get downfield with rushing plays and short passes? That's the way Joe Montana did it, give the receivers and backs a chance to make plays before the 1st down marker instead of trying to hit them downfield all the time.

My concern is that after a hugely successful passing game against the Packers, the Niners will continue to erode their power running game in favor of a quick strike deep field offense. I just want to see some balance for long term success. It's good to know we can win in a shoot out, but now the Niners are becoming more and more similar to the other "elite" teams like the Patriots, Packers and Giants, who have crappy defenses but will pass all day long, 50 to 60 times a game.
  • AmpLee
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 16,043
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

Next to turnovers the stat the most corresponds with victories is explosive plays. Like you said, Green Bay was down two men and Kap and the coaches did the exact right thing... Attack the weak spot. The Term greedy will only apply if Kap continues that trend when there is nothing there and starts forcing the ball. He didn't do that yesterday so its pretty silly to complain about lack of check downs.

The reason why I take issue with Kaepernick's approach is that next week against Seattle, they are going to take away a lot of the deep passes. Seattle's been susceptible to Frank Gore and the rushing game, which is essential to getting things going in the hysteria of C-Link Stadium. Greg Roman's gameplan last year was pretty much the opposite of what seems smart; pre-snap motion on every play, taking the play clock down to almost nothing on every play. So what if our offense needs more time to get downfield with rushing plays and short passes? That's the way Joe Montana did it, give the receivers and backs a chance to make plays before the 1st down marker instead of trying to hit them downfield all the time.

My concern is that after a hugely successful passing game against the Packers, the Niners will continue to erode their power running game in favor of a quick strike deep field offense. I just want to see some balance for long term success. It's good to know we can win in a shoot out, but now the Niners are becoming more and more similar to the other "elite" teams like the Patriots, Packers and Giants, who have crappy defenses but will pass all day long, 50 to 60 times a game.

We rushed the ball 34 times with Gore getting over 20 carries. I'm not sure where we abandoned the run game. GB was simply keyed on stopping the run and daring us to pass down the field, which we did and succeeded. I'd give our staff a bit more credit on creating a game plan that combats the opponent's strengths. We are not going to abandon our run game because we needed our QB to carry the offense with his arm against a team daring him to do it.
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

The only problem is that the SEA defense is perfect against an offense that wants to check down. They can man-up on the WR's all day and leave the rest of the coverage for check-downs.

Now, as for Kap being reluctant to check down...I don't buy it. He properly goes through all reads and then check-downs rather than immediately checking down after his first read is not open. Why? Because he can due to his mobility. Not all QB's can do it.

SEA will be tough but if Kap can buy time, then he will destroy their man coverage. The other thing we can do is run a spread, thin our their defense and rely on draws or Kap gaining big chunks running it.
Originally posted by Psinex:
My concern is that after a hugely successful passing game against the Packers, the Niners will continue to erode their power running game in favor of a quick strike deep field offense. I just want to see some balance for long term success. It's good to know we can win in a shoot out, but now the Niners are becoming more and more similar to the other "elite" teams like the Patriots, Packers and Giants, who have crappy defenses but will pass all day long, 50 to 60 times a game.

think this is much ado about nothing. what's the most logical reason to continue doing anything? it works. the packers got beat early and often in coverage, especially with the bunch formations / vernon in the slot. packers had two injuries already in their secondary coming in. greg roman knew that. kaepernick knew that. he repeatedly targeted gb's weakness until they adjusted -- they never did. if not for a v. davis drop in the 2nd quarter, some timing and penalty / rust issues, this game wouldn't have been close. our running game is still there, just four games ago this same packers team gave up 200+ yards on the ground. i'd much rather have an offense that can remain fluid and adjust to what the opposition is showing you - be opportunistic - than be aligned to one dogmatic approach no matter what to ensure some artificial sense of 'balance'. we had that in sfo not too long ago with the jimmy raye smash mouth football offense. this way is much better.

running game will be more involved against seattle and their db's, you can count on that.
Originally posted by Psinex:
The reason why I take issue with Kaepernick's approach is that next week against Seattle, they are going to take away a lot of the deep passes. Seattle's been susceptible to Frank Gore and the rushing game, which is essential to getting things going in the hysteria of C-Link Stadium. Greg Roman's gameplan last year was pretty much the opposite of what seems smart; pre-snap motion on every play, taking the play clock down to almost nothing on every play. So what if our offense needs more time to get downfield with rushing plays and short passes? That's the way Joe Montana did it, give the receivers and backs a chance to make plays before the 1st down marker instead of trying to hit them downfield all the time.

I think this is spot on.

I understood what he was trying to do with trying to go deep right out of the chute. Maybe you hit a big one on the first play of the game, quiet the crowd down immediately, and get Seattle on their heels. However, once it didn't work, they should have gone back to the game plan they had when they played in SF. Run the ball up the middle over, and over, and over. Seattle can't stop the trap run game they ran so successfully last season in their first meeting. And as you said, minimize the pre snap reads, minimize the shifts, and motions, snap the ball and give Gore 30+ carries and SF will win this game. Especially with all of the injuries Seattle has on the defensive front.
Originally posted by Mr.Mcgibblets:
Good stuff, Marvin. A very satisfying game, despite many penalties.

This. Hopefully we can clean up the penalties & clock management under control.
Great post as per Marv, one of my fave threads on the zone. Few points

Nmandi- I think we'll see him get targeted a bit more now that there are doubts about his ability. When he was top of his game teams didn't try to beat him, they would constantly try throw away from him. I'd imagine this covered up some of the things were seing now. I still think he'll be good but like someone said earlier will miss tackles and cause us to shake our heads occassioanally. He'll be handy tho.

Kap - so nice to have a great qb surrounded by elitw talent again, just showed how gampelaning for one aspect of his game will burn you. Teams are gonna have to choose and hope they contain either the rush or pass. Look for gore to have a big one next week

The one thing that concerns me is there are still problems from last eg play clock, that I thought would have been worked on and fixed. That maybe down to kap trying to do to much , calling audibles like manning , without the experience or it could just be down to week1 seeing as the starters didn't play much pre season. Still cause for concern and I think it will hurt us next week.

Matthew is a joke. Will be done for roids if they ever bring it in.

We're 1-0 after beating a good packers team that had game planned all off season for this one. If we can put up 34 with all the penalties and issues etc then I can't wait till we get it right. Defense will be fine , that's one of the best offenses going around.

Bring on next week.
Hey Marvin, gotta give it up for Gore once again in. Another year, another duty and the man shines no matter what: I have never seen anu sweeter zone-read blocks than what Gore put on display. Never. He made read after read to give his qb extra time. I think Gore needs more national recognition
Re-watching the game something that stood out to me was how much GB's oline was holding. They held early and often, all game. They did get some holding penalties but they got away with a lot.
Originally posted by AmpLee:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.

Next to turnovers the stat the most corresponds with victories is explosive plays. Like you said, Green Bay was down two men and Kap and the coaches did the exact right thing... Attack the weak spot. The Term greedy will only apply if Kap continues that trend when there is nothing there and starts forcing the ball. He didn't do that yesterday so its pretty silly to complain about lack of check downs.

The reason why I take issue with Kaepernick's approach is that next week against Seattle, they are going to take away a lot of the deep passes. Seattle's been susceptible to Frank Gore and the rushing game, which is essential to getting things going in the hysteria of C-Link Stadium. Greg Roman's gameplan last year was pretty much the opposite of what seems smart; pre-snap motion on every play, taking the play clock down to almost nothing on every play. So what if our offense needs more time to get downfield with rushing plays and short passes? That's the way Joe Montana did it, give the receivers and backs a chance to make plays before the 1st down marker instead of trying to hit them downfield all the time.

My concern is that after a hugely successful passing game against the Packers, the Niners will continue to erode their power running game in favor of a quick strike deep field offense. I just want to see some balance for long term success. It's good to know we can win in a shoot out, but now the Niners are becoming more and more similar to the other "elite" teams like the Patriots, Packers and Giants, who have crappy defenses but will pass all day long, 50 to 60 times a game.

We rushed the ball 34 times with Gore getting over 20 carries. I'm not sure where we abandoned the run game. GB was simply keyed on stopping the run and daring us to pass down the field, which we did and succeeded. I'd give our staff a bit more credit on creating a game plan that combats the opponent's strengths. We are not going to abandon our run game because we needed our QB to carry the offense with his arm against a team daring him to do it.

Whether we run or pass, who the niners play will dictate our game plan. I don't understand how we abandoned the run, because we ran the ball 34 times. The plays that stand out were Kaeps passes. The niners team of 2013 is almost complete meaning they can beat you throught the air, on the ground, and/or defense. Against Seattle, I don't see the Niners going through the air as much. Kaep will have to pick and choose his throws and I'm sure Gore will e utilized more often. I think we're balanced, its just we have so many options now on how to beat a team.
[ Edited by Baldie on Sep 9, 2013 at 2:54 PM ]
Originally posted by Psinex:
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Psinex:
Hey Marvin,

What do you think about Kaepernick ignoring his receiving options underneath? On one play, I saw Kaepernick scrambling away from the rush with Frank Gore running wide open down the middle. Gore shrugged in the middle of his route. On the pass to Bruce Miller, he went through every single progression before it looked like he dumped off a pass to Miller as if he had nothing better to do. He seems to be repulsed by the idea of throwing underneath.



http://www.sportingcharts.com/dictionary/nfl/checkdown.aspx

No kidding. But Kaepernick ignores his outlet passes and underneath routes to the point where he's almost greedy for long plays. If he took more underneath routes, he would eat up more clock and extend drives. With Kaepernick, it seems like it's either feast or famine. Yesterday, everything worked out well because our passing game tore up Green Bay's secondary, but let's not fool ourselves. Several of their key starters were out, and they were playing undermanned.

Against a better defense like Seattle, Kaepernick's most likely not going to throw for 400 yards. If our running game can't get going, we are going to be in big trouble. We will need shorter completions to get down field with the occasional long strike. Balance is the key.


Wow, talk about nitpicking. This is after a performance where Kap threw for over 400 yards, had 3 TD passes, no interceptions, a passer rating of 130, and a 10.5 YPA average. And you're complaining because you don't think he's checking down quickly enough? He checked down when he had to and a couple of those plays resulted in big gains. Kap just takes what the defense gives him, and he did a pretty good job of that yesterday. Of course he's not going to be perfect, but that was what I would consider a pretty outstanding performance. But all of a sudden we want nothing short of absolute perfection from our QB?
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