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Bad at Scouting/Evaluating WR's?

I guess with Alex and AJ gone the WZ needs something to b***h about...
yah they need to bring in an independent WR evaluator.
  • buck
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Originally posted by doc_brown_:
You're completely missing the point. Who made the decision to wait until the LATE rounds to address a pressing need? Crabs and Anquan would have been a nice duo, but injuries happen in the NFL, which is why depth is important.

Look at some of the good teams in the NFL right now:
Denver - Thomas (draft pick), Decker (draft pick), Welker (FA)
Atlanta - Jones (draft pick), Roddy (draft pick), Douglas (draft pick)
GB - Cobb (draft pick), Nelson (draft pick), Jones (draft pick)
Seattle - Tate (draft pick), Rice (FA), Baldwin (Undrafted FA)
Houston - Andre (draft pick), Hopkins (draft pick), Martin (draft pick)

Notice anything?

Yes. We should evaluate, in your words, the person "who made the decision."

Earlier it seemed to evaluating Baalke based upon drafts that he had a hand in.

Clearly not the same.
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Sigh. Seriously?

2 things can be equally true. The old GM can be really good and the NEW GM can ALSO be good.

The 49ers had SIX players on the All-Pro team last year. THREE were taken by Baalke. TWO were drafted by Nolan/McCloughan. ONE was Andy Lee who came in before both of them.

Of course those pre-Baalke picks contributed in a big way. They are very good/great players. Still...Baalke freakin' took the premiere pass rusher in the game AND one of the most exciting young QBs in the game in the SAME DRAFT. How good are the 49ers right now WITHOUT Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, and Colin Kaepernick? Seems to me that those players are every bit as important as any of the McCloughan picks.

Good point, where could the 49ers ever find some interior linemen (just move Boone out to RT), a second ILB to play next to the best in the league, an athletic pass rusher to look good next to Justin Smith and they got to the NFCCG with Alex Smith. I think they could survive. How would they survive without Gore, Willis, Davis, Staley, Crabs, Smith, Brown, Brooks? I think they would suck pretty bad, those are the most important positions and core of the team right there.

................

You and the point are completely missing each other. Kinda funny how you just glossed over 2/5ths of the best line in the game today and attributed Aldons success to Justin...because every player who has ever played next to Justin had a record setting first 2 years in the NFL. Wait, wha? Nobody even close to Aldon? Really?

We saw what the team looked like Pre-Baalke. Alot of that can be attributed to Harbaugh and the coaching staff, but don't try and make the case that adding huge pieces via the draft had little to do with where the team is.

I am not trying to compare the two regimes. I'm trying to make the point that Baalke in only 3 drafts has done EXCEPTIONALLY well and has already made his case as one of the best GMs in the league. I'm not even including the 2013 draft because it's really early, but right now it looks pretty damn good.

Would the 49ers be in the playoffs without the best line in football, the premiere pass rusher in football, or one of the best young QBs in football?

I think the answer would be a resounding "no".

The 49ers wouldn't be where they are without EITHER GMs picks.
[ Edited by Marvin49 on Aug 20, 2013 at 2:15 PM ]
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Man, fire him since he can't turn LATE ROUND PICKS into the next Jerry Rice.

You're completely missing the point. Who made the decision to wait until the LATE rounds to address a pressing need? Crabs and Anquan would have been a nice duo, but injuries happen in the NFL, which is why depth is important.

Look at some of the good teams in the NFL right now:
Denver - Thomas (draft pick), Decker (draft pick), Welker (FA)
Atlanta - Jones (draft pick), Roddy (draft pick), Douglas (draft pick)
GB - Cobb (draft pick), Nelson (draft pick), Jones (draft pick)
Seattle - Tate (draft pick), Rice (FA), Baldwin (Undrafted FA)
Houston - Andre (draft pick), Hopkins (draft pick), Martin (draft pick)

Notice anything?

Yeah I do, hardly any of those WR's were taken in the first round. D Thomas looked bad until Peyton came on board and Atlanta gave up major picks to get Julio. Baalke got AB for peanuts and if teamed with Crabs and Kyle Williams, who Baalke drafted and who has gotten better each year, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
[ Edited by ChipDouglas510 on Aug 20, 2013 at 2:03 PM ]
Need a receiver badly? .... Draft a receiver in the 1st round, but make sure to cover your ass by drafting another one in the 3rd or 4th just in case the 1st round dude is a bust. I hope Patton will make us all forget about the Jenkins fail.
[ Edited by qnnhan7 on Aug 20, 2013 at 2:07 PM ]
Originally posted by SaksV:
Overrated? Here's SOME of what the overrated Trent Baalke has done since being incorporated into the Front Office in 2010....

DRAFTED Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Kyle Williams, Boobie Dixon, Bruce Miller, Daniel Kilgore, Kendal Hunter, Chris Culliver, Colin Kaeprnick and Aldon Smith. ELEVEN Pro-Bowl/Solid contributors to the current roster.
He was pressured by Mike Singletary into selecting Taylor Mays and as soon as he had the chance, he traded Mays away for what would become Bruce Miller IIRC.

Got rid of Nate Clements and his gargantuan contract, and replaced him with Carlos Rogers and added a Donte Whitner for good measure. Both enjoyed their best seasons as 49ers in 2011 and are still a large part of the teams plan to win the Super Bowl.

REVAMPED the Offensive Line from by cutting names like Baas, Wragge, Rachal and Snyder

Traded Alex Smith for Vance McDonald/Tank Carradine plus a future selection in the Top 100.

Extended the contract of Ahmad Brooks, Justin Smith, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Anthony Davis, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman and Joe Staley. Our core.

That's just off the top of my head..............
...but he drafted Jenkins. He's gotta go.
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
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Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Need a receiver badly? .... Draft a receiver in the 1st round, but make sure to cover your ass by drafting another one in the 3rd or 4th just in case the 1st round dude is a bust. I hope Patton will make us all forget about the Jenkins fail.

Patton's gonna shine
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
That has nothing to do with Trent. The coaches will play a player when they are ready.
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
That has nothing to do with Trent. The coaches will play a player when they are ready.


The coaches were brand spanking new. There was a holdout, and they didn't even meet the players until a few weeks before the season started. How on earth could the coaches have known that those players were "ready"?
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
That has nothing to do with Trent. The coaches will play a player when they are ready.


The coaches were brand spanking new. There was a holdout, and they didn't even meet the players until a few weeks before the season started. How on earth could the coaches have known that those players were "ready"?

We didn't fire everybody. You really think Trent is going to tell Tomsula which DL to play and when......not happening. The coaches sweating on the field make the decisions, not the guy in a suit sitting in an office.
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Man, fire him since he can't turn LATE ROUND PICKS into the next Jerry Rice.

You're completely missing the point. Who made the decision to wait until the LATE rounds to address a pressing need? Crabs and Anquan would have been a nice duo, but injuries happen in the NFL, which is why depth is important.

Look at some of the good teams in the NFL right now:
Denver - Thomas (draft pick), Decker (draft pick), Welker (FA)
Atlanta - Jones (draft pick), Roddy (draft pick), Douglas (draft pick)
GB - Cobb (draft pick), Nelson (draft pick), Jones (draft pick)
Seattle - Tate (draft pick), Rice (FA), Baldwin (Undrafted FA)
Houston - Andre (draft pick), Hopkins (draft pick), Martin (draft pick)

Notice anything?

Yeah I do, hardly any of those WR's were taken in the first round. D Thomas looked bad until Peyton came on board and Atlanta gave up major picks to get Julio. Baalke got AB for peanuts and if teamed with Crabs and Kyle Williams, who Baalke drafted and who has gotten better each year, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

I agree with Chip, I live in Denver, D. Thomas was horrendously underachieving before Peyton came in. Decker was a 3rd rounder I believe and Welker was acquired through a patriot f*ck up. Then you want to look at GB, forgetting that Cobb was almost practice squaded if he didnt show his return ability and Jones was almost let go of in FA, because the packers didnt think he was that valuable... until all their other receivers got injured and he stepped up. Seattle is laughable, no way their receivers are tops in anything. And you forgot that the texans gave up on Jones and let him walk....

So what was the point of pointing to "good teams"? to show you dont know how teams compile receivers either?
[ Edited by 5280High on Aug 20, 2013 at 8:53 PM ]
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
That has nothing to do with Trent. The coaches will play a player when they are ready.


The coaches were brand spanking new. There was a holdout, and they didn't even meet the players until a few weeks before the season started. How on earth could the coaches have known that those players were "ready"?

We didn't fire everybody. You really think Trent is going to tell Tomsula which DL to play and when......not happening. The coaches sweating on the field make the decisions, not the guy in a suit sitting in an office.


Are you implying the DL coach decides who starts on the DL?

Everybody gets together to make these decisions, but with only a few weeks to prepare, the coaching staff had no choice, but to rely, as you said, on the previous regimes input. Baalke, being the general manager, and previously the director of player personnel, and previously the head scout (or something like that), watched, analyzed, and evaluated these players for nearly their entire careers. Not only that, but he understood the strengths of the team.
Who better to provide input? Furthermore, Harbaugh has said on countless occasions, that he and Baalke are always discussing the team, its personnel, etc.

It's not like all we did was promote some players. It was an entire retooling with an entirely new PHILOSOPHY of how we were going to build a defense.

For example, we trade Manny Lawson, a player who is excellent in coverage, and replace him with a player we already had, who is not as good in coverage. This type of commitment requires a different defensive philosophy and strategy. When we promoted McDonald, we moved Sopoaga to nose tackle, where he had previously failed before, another MAJOR decision, which cannot be determined in a few weeks of watching film. Obviously, input into the player, his strengths, his weaknesses, etc, was required to make that type of decision. Input that can only be provided by, again, people who have watched him play and practice, up close, for years and years; people like Trent Baalke.

Half of our defense was different from the previous year. A few weeks is not enough time to make these types of major strategic decisions on your own. Baalke was obviously providing most of the input and suggestions as to the direction this team should go, based upon the personnel they already had, as well as the personnel they could obtain in free agency.

A head coach simply does not have the TIME to orchestrate major changes to an NFL team of this scale in a mere few weeks. The head coach has to spend time coaching the players, running them through practice, coaching the quarterback, talking to players etc. The GM's JOB is to handle personnel decisions and long-term strategy.
[ Edited by BrianGO on Aug 20, 2013 at 9:10 PM ]
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,723
Originally posted by jreff22:
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Everyone is forgetting the fact that a GM's job goes well beyond just the draft.

Baalke has done an epic job of obtaining players from other teams and taking the players we already have and PROMOTING them into starting positions.

McDonald became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Brooks became a starter the first year under Baalke.
Bowman became a starter the first year under Baalke.
I think Brown became a starter the first year under Baalke. The previous regime barely let him on the field.

We became an elite defense just because of the decisions he made to promote certain players.
That has nothing to do with Trent. The coaches will play a player when they are ready.

Who hired Harbaugh and the coaches who made those moves? The answer is Baalke.

But, no Baalke had nothing to do those moves. They were good moves.

But, if he had a hand in the drafting of a bad receiver before 2010, he had some thing to do with those move, the bad ones that is.