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Bad at Scouting/Evaluating WR's?

My only comment to the initial thread is that I am always amazed that anyone can whiff on a first round draft pick. Disappointment, sure. J.J. Stokes was not a great player as hoped, but he played and contributed a little. The guys that simply get gut, e.g., Balmer, Carmazzi, Jenkins (OK, a polite cut), that floors me. So many people getting paid so well to analyze that talent and still you see fairly frequently these perplexing first round busts.
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Overrated? Here's SOME of what the overrated Trent Baalke has done since being incorporated into the Front Office in 2010....

DRAFTED Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Kyle Williams, Boobie Dixon, Bruce Miller, Daniel Kilgore, Kendal Hunter, Chris Culliver, Colin Kaeprnick and Aldon Smith. ELEVEN Pro-Bowl/Solid contributors to the current roster.
He was pressured by Mike Singletary into selecting Taylor Mays and as soon as he had the chance, he traded Mays away for what would become Bruce Miller IIRC.

Got rid of Nate Clements and his gargantuan contract, and replaced him with Carlos Rogers and added a Donte Whitner for good measure. Both enjoyed their best seasons as 49ers in 2011 and are still a large part of the teams plan to win the Super Bowl.

REVAMPED the Offensive Line from by cutting names like Baas, Wragge, Rachal and Snyder

Traded Alex Smith for Vance McDonald/Tank Carradine plus a future selection in the Top 100.

Extended the contract of Ahmad Brooks, Justin Smith, Frank Gore, Vernon Davis, Anthony Davis, Patrick Willis, Navarro Bowman and Joe Staley. Our core.

That's just off the top of my head..............

Kilgore is a solid contributor? Really?


Yes, he is. He is a mainstay in the Jumbo packages (which the Niners run alot) and he'll be the starting center when Goodwin is done.
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Kilgore is a solid contributor? Really?

I always find it funny when people walk by a forest and only acknowledge one tree....as you were.

For what it's worth, Kilgore is a good ST guy and contributed on short yardage runs last year. This season, he is in line to possibly beat Goodwin for starting C. Call it whatever you wanna call it...

I see a forest of great players. Mostly from McCloughan/Nolan. Gore, Willis, Staley, Vernon, Crabs, Boone, Brown, Justin Smith, Brooks, Haralson. Baalke has supplemented that incredible foundation well and had some good FA pickups. But he can't be judged for another 5 years or so. The greatest move he has made so far is getting Harbaugh. Other than that, jury still out.


Right...because we can't judge him on Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Bruce Miller, and LaMichael James.

Three of those players are All Pro's, 2 are Pro Bowl alternates, 2 are very good reserves behind a possible HOF RB, 1 is a promising young corner and the last is Colin freakin' Kaepernick.

Ya....too early to judge. Only that in three drafts. What a bum.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by ayetee:
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Are Baalke and Co. bad at scouting and evaluating college WR's?

In the 2011 draft, The Niners selected Ronald Johnson in the 6th round, who no longer is in the NFL

In the 2012 draft, The Niners selected A.J. Jenkins in the 1st round. Jenkins is probably the 7th best WR currently on the Niners roster and has looked terrible in games.

Notable WR's taken after Jenkins are:
- Alshon Jeffery
- Ryan Broyles
- Reuben Randle
- T.J. Graham
- Mohamed Sanu
- T.Y. Hilton
- Chris Givens
- Josh Gordon

Baalke and Co. stared these guys in the faces and still decided to pull the trigger on Jenkins. For me, this begs the question; Is Baalke bad at evaluating college WR's? It remains to be seen if Quinton Patton succeeds in the NFL, or if Jenkins can salvage his young career.

The Niners have drafted players with character concerns before, so for me, that is not an excuse for passing on guys like Alshon Jeffery and Josh Gordon.

Tell me what you guys think.
I think you have perfect 20/20 hind sight.

Hind sight quite frequently is as bad as just plain old sight.

Baalke has been in charge of four drafts for the team. He has selected four wide receivers.

The OP only speaks of two of the four. Those two happen to be the worst of his four picks.

20/20 hindsight has to be better than that.

Scroll up and you'll see info on 6 WR's that Baalke had a hand in drafting.
worst thread of all time
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by ayetee:
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Are Baalke and Co. bad at scouting and evaluating college WR's?

In the 2011 draft, The Niners selected Ronald Johnson in the 6th round, who no longer is in the NFL

In the 2012 draft, The Niners selected A.J. Jenkins in the 1st round. Jenkins is probably the 7th best WR currently on the Niners roster and has looked terrible in games.

Notable WR's taken after Jenkins are:
- Alshon Jeffery
- Ryan Broyles
- Reuben Randle
- T.J. Graham
- Mohamed Sanu
- T.Y. Hilton
- Chris Givens
- Josh Gordon

Baalke and Co. stared these guys in the faces and still decided to pull the trigger on Jenkins. For me, this begs the question; Is Baalke bad at evaluating college WR's? It remains to be seen if Quinton Patton succeeds in the NFL, or if Jenkins can salvage his young career.

The Niners have drafted players with character concerns before, so for me, that is not an excuse for passing on guys like Alshon Jeffery and Josh Gordon.

Tell me what you guys think.
I think you have perfect 20/20 hind sight.

Hind sight quite frequently is as bad as just plain old sight.

Baalke has been in charge of four drafts for the team. He has selected four wide receivers.

The OP only speaks of two of the four. Those two happen to be the worst of his four picks.

20/20 hindsight has to be better than that.

Scroll up and you'll see info on 6 WR's that Baalke had a hand in drafting.

I only count 3...
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Kilgore is a solid contributor? Really?

I always find it funny when people walk by a forest and only acknowledge one tree....as you were.

For what it's worth, Kilgore is a good ST guy and contributed on short yardage runs last year. This season, he is in line to possibly beat Goodwin for starting C. Call it whatever you wanna call it...

I see a forest of great players. Mostly from McCloughan/Nolan. Gore, Willis, Staley, Vernon, Crabs, Boone, Brown, Justin Smith, Brooks, Haralson. Baalke has supplemented that incredible foundation well and had some good FA pickups. But he can't be judged for another 5 years or so. The greatest move he has made so far is getting Harbaugh. Other than that, jury still out.


Right...because we can't judge him on Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Bruce Miller, and LaMichael James.

Three of those players are All Pro's, 2 are Pro Bowl alternates, 2 are very good reserves behind a possible HOF RB, 1 is a promising young corner and the last is Colin freakin' Kaepernick.

Ya....too early to judge. Only that in three drafts. What a bum.

We will see how good all his players are once McCloughan's are all gone. Which was my point. Right now he is living off of someone else's foundation. We shall see if he can build his own. But please, list a couple more backups to prove your point.
WR's are very hard to judge. EVERY TEAM misses on them. If they knew what John Taylor or Terrell Owens could bring to the NFL, they would be top 5 picks.


It's probably one of the most difficult position to judge.
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Recent WR draft choices and position Baalke held with the team.
Also, top WR's for that season (To give you an idea who the team felt comfortable deploying).

Dir. of Player Personnel - 2008-2009
2008: 6th, #8 Josh Morgan (Isaac Bruce, Bryant Johnson, Josh Morgan, Arnaz Battle)
2009: 1st, #10 Michael Crabtree (Josh Morgan, Isaac Bruce, Delanie Walker, Jason Hill)

VP of Player Personnel - 2010
2010: 6th, #37 Kyle Williams (Michael Crabtree, Josh Morgan, Delanie Walker, Ted Ginn Jr.)

GM - 2011-present
2011: 6th, #17 Ronald Johnson (Michael Crabtree, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr., Josh Morgan, Braylon Edwards)
2012: 1st, #30 A.J. Jenkins (Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Kyle Williams)
2013: 4th, #31 Quinton Patton (Anquan Boldin, ??????????)

The 49ers have one of the deepest, most talented rosters in the league. Our QB, O/D line, RB's, LB's, TE's and even the secondary respectively rank among the best in the NFL. But for some reason, the FO can't assemble formidable WR's. No wonder 3rd down and red-zone conversion %'s perennially suck.

Acquiring a top free agent would be too expensive, so the answer is through the draft! Crabtree's injury is a crying shame, but behind him the is zero depth, and I call that just plain irresponsible.


Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
I only count 3...

Here
Originally posted by pdizo916:
WR's are very hard to judge. EVERY TEAM misses on them. If they knew what John Taylor or Terrell Owens could bring to the NFL, they would be top 5 picks.


It's probably one of the most difficult position to judge.

A WR is more of a tertiary player in that their production and development is dependant upon the QB who is dependant on the OL and coaching. Fitz did not produce to standard last season for example. The situation can influence a WR greatly oftentimes despite their best efforts
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by SaksV:
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Kilgore is a solid contributor? Really?

I always find it funny when people walk by a forest and only acknowledge one tree....as you were.

For what it's worth, Kilgore is a good ST guy and contributed on short yardage runs last year. This season, he is in line to possibly beat Goodwin for starting C. Call it whatever you wanna call it...

I see a forest of great players. Mostly from McCloughan/Nolan. Gore, Willis, Staley, Vernon, Crabs, Boone, Brown, Justin Smith, Brooks, Haralson. Baalke has supplemented that incredible foundation well and had some good FA pickups. But he can't be judged for another 5 years or so. The greatest move he has made so far is getting Harbaugh. Other than that, jury still out.


Right...because we can't judge him on Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, Colin Kaepernick, Chris Culliver, Kendall Hunter, Bruce Miller, and LaMichael James.

Three of those players are All Pro's, 2 are Pro Bowl alternates, 2 are very good reserves behind a possible HOF RB, 1 is a promising young corner and the last is Colin freakin' Kaepernick.

Ya....too early to judge. Only that in three drafts. What a bum.

We will see how good all his players are once McCloughan's are all gone. Which was my point. Right now he is living off of someone else's foundation. We shall see if he can build his own. But please, list a couple more backups to prove your point.

Sigh. Seriously?

2 things can be equally true. The old GM can be really good and the NEW GM can ALSO be good.

The 49ers had SIX players on the All-Pro team last year. THREE were taken by Baalke. TWO were drafted by Nolan/McCloughan. ONE was Andy Lee who came in before both of them.

Of course those pre-Baalke picks contributed in a big way. They are very good/great players. Still...Baalke freakin' took the premiere pass rusher in the game AND one of the most exciting young QBs in the game in the SAME DRAFT. How good are the 49ers right now WITHOUT Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, and Colin Kaepernick? Seems to me that those players are every bit as important as any of the McCloughan picks.
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Recent WR draft choices and position Baalke held with the team.
Also, top WR's for that season (To give you an idea who the team felt comfortable deploying).

Dir. of Player Personnel - 2008-2009
2008: 6th, #8 Josh Morgan (Isaac Bruce, Bryant Johnson, Josh Morgan, Arnaz Battle)
2009: 1st, #10 Michael Crabtree (Josh Morgan, Isaac Bruce, Delanie Walker, Jason Hill)

VP of Player Personnel - 2010
2010: 6th, #37 Kyle Williams (Michael Crabtree, Josh Morgan, Delanie Walker, Ted Ginn Jr.)

GM - 2011-present
2011: 6th, #17 Ronald Johnson (Michael Crabtree, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr., Josh Morgan, Braylon Edwards)
2012: 1st, #30 A.J. Jenkins (Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Kyle Williams)
2013: 4th, #31 Quinton Patton (Anquan Boldin, ??????????)

The 49ers have one of the deepest, most talented rosters in the league. Our QB, O/D line, RB's, LB's, TE's and even the secondary respectively rank among the best in the NFL. But for some reason, the FO can't assemble formidable WR's. No wonder 3rd down and red-zone conversion %'s perennially suck.

Acquiring a top free agent would be too expensive, so the answer is through the draft! Crabtree's injury is a crying shame, but behind him the is zero depth, and I call that just plain irresponsible.


Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
I only count 3...

Here
Man, fire him since he can't turn LATE ROUND PICKS into the next Jerry Rice.
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Sigh. Seriously?

2 things can be equally true. The old GM can be really good and the NEW GM can ALSO be good.

The 49ers had SIX players on the All-Pro team last year. THREE were taken by Baalke. TWO were drafted by Nolan/McCloughan. ONE was Andy Lee who came in before both of them.

Of course those pre-Baalke picks contributed in a big way. They are very good/great players. Still...Baalke freakin' took the premiere pass rusher in the game AND one of the most exciting young QBs in the game in the SAME DRAFT. How good are the 49ers right now WITHOUT Anthony Davis, Mike Iupati, Navorro Bowman, Aldon Smith, and Colin Kaepernick? Seems to me that those players are every bit as important as any of the McCloughan picks.

Good point, where could the 49ers ever find some interior linemen (just move Boone out to RT), a second ILB to play next to the best in the league, an athletic pass rusher to look good next to Justin Smith and they got to the NFCCG with Alex Smith. I think they could survive. How would they survive without Gore, Willis, Davis, Staley, Crabs, Smith, Brown, Brooks? I think they would suck pretty bad, those are the most important positions and core of the team right there.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,551
Originally posted by doc_brown_:
Scroll up and you'll see info on 6 WR's that Baalke had a hand in drafting.

He has been in charge of four drafts: 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2013. He has drafted 4 wide receivers in those drafts.

We know that those picks are his for better or worse.

We should evaluate him on what we know, not what we suspect or wish. .
[ Edited by buck on Aug 20, 2013 at 1:50 PM ]
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Man, fire him since he can't turn LATE ROUND PICKS into the next Jerry Rice.

You're completely missing the point. Who made the decision to wait until the LATE rounds to address a pressing need? Crabs and Anquan would have been a nice duo, but injuries happen in the NFL, which is why depth is important.

Look at some of the good teams in the NFL right now:
Denver - Thomas (draft pick), Decker (draft pick), Welker (FA)
Atlanta - Jones (draft pick), Roddy (draft pick), Douglas (draft pick)
GB - Cobb (draft pick), Nelson (draft pick), Jones (draft pick)
Seattle - Tate (draft pick), Rice (FA), Baldwin (Undrafted FA)
Houston - Andre (draft pick), Hopkins (draft pick), Martin (draft pick)

Notice anything?