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Has the Pass Rush improved enough from last season?

Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
How is signing Dorsey , drafting d line AND drafting a 3rd rd rush LB, not trying to improve the pass rush?

FYP
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
How is signing Dorsey and drafting d line not trying to improve the pass rush?

They are trying to improve the D Line but with both rookies (Tank & Dial) unable to play right now I don't see the depth being better than last year. Hopefully Dorsey will be able to give breaks to all 3 spots on the line. The OLB's spots should have depth.
Agree with the OP on many of the points. I have a feeling Cam Johnson is going to seriously add something to the WILL spot this year behind Aldon. In fact, if he adds value in run defense and more athleticism in coverage, he could very well push Haralson right off the roster or to the background as the season progresses. Lemonier won't add much of anything more than Brooks already adds as the SAM position in our 3-4 requires more reading and run support/edge-sealing and zone coverage than the WILL. So people shouldn't expect another Aldon Smith, but at the SAM position.

Really, the point I've been making all off season is "Scheme is the Theme for 2013." This is a veteran defense now and NOW it's up to Fangio to scheme more pass rush this year with some creativity rather than perpetually playing the straight-up 3-4 base. Aldon, Brooks, Bowman, Willis, Johnson, Lemonier, etc. should all be schemed to rush from various positions and play interchangeably more rather than three of these guys often times being relegated to underneath/zone coverage.
[ Edited by NCommand on Aug 8, 2013 at 8:46 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:


Really, the point I've been making all off season is "Scheme is the Theme for 2013." This is a veteran defense now and NOW it's up to Fangio to scheme more pass rush this year with some creativity rather than perpetually playing the straight-up 3-4 base. Aldon, Brooks, Bowman, Willis, Johnson, Lemonier, etc. should all be schemed to rush from various positions and play interchangeably more rather than three of these guys often times being relegated to underneath/zone coverage.
Fully agree. They need to become more creative and really get after the QB with press coverage from the CB's.
  • dj43
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Originally posted by saj4423:
Originally posted by NCommand:


Really, the point I've been making all off season is "Scheme is the Theme for 2013." This is a veteran defense now and NOW it's up to Fangio to scheme more pass rush this year with some creativity rather than perpetually playing the straight-up 3-4 base. Aldon, Brooks, Bowman, Willis, Johnson, Lemonier, etc. should all be schemed to rush from various positions and play interchangeably more rather than three of these guys often times being relegated to underneath/zone coverage.
Fully agree. They need to become more creative and really get after the QB with press coverage from the CB's.
I was happy when I heard Fangio was coming here to run the defense. Having worked under Dom Capers, who runs some of the most creative blitz schemes in the league, I expected to see some of that here. However, that has not been the case. The stuff Fangio has been running here is pretty vanilla compared to Capers stuff. It would seem that more variety in the packages would be a part of the solution. As it is, I do not expect a great deal more than last season.
If the Smith Bros are healthy = YES
if not = NO
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by saj4423:
Originally posted by NCommand:


Really, the point I've been making all off season is "Scheme is the Theme for 2013." This is a veteran defense now and NOW it's up to Fangio to scheme more pass rush this year with some creativity rather than perpetually playing the straight-up 3-4 base. Aldon, Brooks, Bowman, Willis, Johnson, Lemonier, etc. should all be schemed to rush from various positions and play interchangeably more rather than three of these guys often times being relegated to underneath/zone coverage.
Fully agree. They need to become more creative and really get after the QB with press coverage from the CB's.
I was happy when I heard Fangio was coming here to run the defense. Having worked under Dom Capers, who runs some of the most creative blitz schemes in the league, I expected to see some of that here. However, that has not been the case. The stuff Fangio has been running here is pretty vanilla compared to Capers stuff. It would seem that more variety in the packages would be a part of the solution. As it is, I do not expect a great deal more than last season.

Exactly...it's more VaNolan-like (when here in SF) than Capers-like, for sure! I don't know how you can have the best 4 LBers in the game and just play them straight up and relegate 2 or 3 of them to coverage (though I understand we didn't have S's who could cover/no range). All four are your playmakers and should be playing down hill and dictating the offense rather than reacting to it.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
thl408--Premise of your post seems muddy to me. You say the two rookies are unknown, then conclude the pass rush will be the same, which does not follow a logical track.

Here are your points:

  • Middle: A wash.
  • Rookies: Tank and Lemonier (maybe Dial down the road) are unknown.
  • Health: Justin and Aldon are healthy and will be fresher.

That seems to lead to a logical conclusion that the 9er pass rush will be better by a lot or a little depending on the rookies and the luck of health.


My counter points:

  • CK is a much more quick strike QB and will bring the defense back onto the field faster. Depth is key to withstanding this change...as we saw last season, it wears down the DL. Depth is now greater.
  • Haralson may bring a great deal of stability to the rotation that was missing last year.
  • The two rookies seem to be best attacking, which should be useful in pass rush situations, but will hurt run defense (if Tank sees the field at all this year).
  • I believe Soap was better than many believe and will be missed when playing against teams with power in the middle of the OLine.

I get how I might have sounded muddy. But here is are my points in a (hopefully) clearer way, as I may have been rambling late last night:

- There are still only two proven pass rushers on the team, same as last season. (A case can be made for Brooks as a proven pass rusher.)
- The only additional body, that can help in 13-14, is Lemonier, who is an unproven rookie.
- The team is still one injury away from being in the same spot as they were last season.

I understand that Harralson, Lemonier, Dorsey will allow for a better rotation and a fresher Aldon and Justin, but the fact remains that there are still only 2 legit pass rushers on the team.
[ Edited by thl408 on Aug 8, 2013 at 10:07 AM ]
We will see...
You guys are talking about Dom Capers, right? You guys are saying the defense needs to be more like the Dom Capers style defense?

Would that be the same Dom Capers who fashioned a defense that allowed the Niners to ring up 579 yards and 45 points in the playoffs last season?

Just sayin...

Yeah, I'd like to see some more aggressive blitzing as well, but Capers is not exactly the poster boy for how you stop somebody these days.
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
How is signing Dorsey and drafting d line not trying to improve the pass rush?

I'm not suggesting they didn't try to improve. Spending 2 of the top 4 draft picks on the front 7 is definitely a concerted effort to improve. I'm questioning whether it was improved enough to make a big difference when compared to last season. Dorsey is a stout run stopper with no history of bringing heat on the QB. Of the two rookies, the better one can't help till mid season. With their history of how they ask rookies to contribute, who knows what role Lemonier will play.

Good points about how having better corners can allow Vic to get more creative with the front 7. I like it "scheme is the theme". We did see glimpses of Willis and Bow blitzing up the middle vs NE, ATL, and GB with success. That's something that Vic may call upon more often.
Dorsey move alone is gonna pay dividends, guy is now playing on a contender, knows that if he wants to turn his career around he's gotta do it now (in a system that's actually gonna help him more than it did in KC), or he'll never have a starting snap in the NFL again.

I think Aldon's gonna break the sack record with this d-line.
[ Edited by SnakePlissken on Aug 8, 2013 at 10:27 AM ]
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
We will see...
this is the truth, bottom line,, we hope so, we think so, with the guys they drafted and by signing dorsey, it should. we also are thinking that there is no way it can be worse than last year. But as chip says , we will really do not know. we all know what it means if our depth is the same or even worse than last year now what earnie and robby douglas think about things is a whole other story
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by GNielsen:
You guys are talking about Dom Capers, right? You guys are saying the defense needs to be more like the Dom Capers style defense?

Would that be the same Dom Capers who fashioned a defense that allowed the Niners to ring up 579 yards and 45 points in the playoffs last season?

Just sayin...

Yeah, I'd like to see some more aggressive blitzing as well, but Capers is not exactly the poster boy for how you stop somebody these days.
my lord this is the truth,, you know I was bored the other night and watched that playoff game on youtube and i forgot just how much the niners made the packers defense look like a bunch of dummies,,, I also was very surprised in looking back how much criticism troy aikman threw at capers that night!!
Originally posted by GNielsen:
You guys are talking about Dom Capers, right? You guys are saying the defense needs to be more like the Dom Capers style defense?

Would that be the same Dom Capers who fashioned a defense that allowed the Niners to ring up 579 yards and 45 points in the playoffs last season?

Just sayin...

Yeah, I'd like to see some more aggressive blitzing as well, but Capers is not exactly the poster boy for how you stop somebody these days.

This made me laugh so hard! Yeah, obviously we want a Capers "formation" out of a Fangio "base" defense. One thing Capers does very well is use his best pass rusher and attack weaknesses along the OL...(just ask Staley!). He doesn't just stick Matthews at the SAM position all game long. He moves him to the WILL if he feels he can dominate the LT. Or he lines him up off the LOS and rushes inside. Then maybe he'll move him back to the SAM. He keeps him free to rush and be a playmaker. Imagine if Capers had our personnel and had Fangio to pull in the reigns at times. Capers is the defensive equivalent of Mike Martz (go big or go home). Somewhere in the middle is the perfect formula but it starts with observing the oppositions weaknesses and then exploiting them on game day. We seem to wait to see what the offense does first and then adjust as they dictate. This by definition, is the opposite of how a 3-4 was designed.
[ Edited by NCommand on Aug 8, 2013 at 11:05 AM ]
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