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Which Remaining 3 WRs Will Make The 53-man Roster ?

Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Giving the Niners WR an unbaised look, one has to conclude that it is not an elite group.

Even with Crabtree healthy, the combination of Crabtree and Boldin would IMO not be an elite standard. Both are excellent possession-type receivers, and bone fide starters, but the take-the-top-off element is lacking with that combination. One or more of the young ones, realistically only AJ or Lockette, maybe Moore, needs to step up to fill that role. They're the ones possessing the speed requirement. I feel that none of them have had enough time in training camp (especially with the injury time-outs) in order for fans or reporters to make any kind of determination. The coaches should have some kind of feel based upon OTA's and practices, but they will not let on, but will allow the process to work itself out.

My best guess on the rest, apart from Crabtree and Boldin:

1. It would be nice if AJ did "step up" and fill the void. He was drafted to fill that role. No doubt, he has all the physical attributes. It all depends on whether he has the mental toughness. And the desire. It's one thing to excel in college. It's quite another to step it up a notch for what is required in the pros. the best the oragnization can do is give him the kind of support that will encourage the best out of him. I have to believe that the coaches have an inkling about him. The next few weeks will solidify their opinion. If he doesn't possess the necessary mental touhgness, this organization is smart enough to cut their losses and he will be gone: Traded or cut. I hope that he earns a roster spot. Niners could use his speed.

2. KW: If he ends up #2 this would be bad news for the Niners. Because that really means that the team has a below par receiving core. He is not a starting quality WR. He's a #4 or #5 at best. And a good back-up punt returner.

3. Collie: Right now, I would rate him the Niners second best healthy receiver. He has proven that he can play, very productively at the NFL level. His history of productivity exceeds KWs and he has better size and moves. Very good at running precise routes. Hopefully, his concussion history is not as serious as many are making it out to be. We know that the longer one is away from the last concussion episode, the less the likelihood of another. He has been out for a couple of years, last year because of a tendon tear, not concussion. Unless injured in TC, I guess he makes the final cut.

4. Chad Hall: I really like this guy. Smart, disciplined, highly dedicated and motivated. Looks after himself and possessing good character. That's why the Niners like him, I feel. He and KW fit the same mold, they are both physically limited, and ideally the team only keeps one of them if both are healthy. Personally, I would feel sad to see either go, I think that one of them will either be on IR/PUP or be waived.

5. Lockette: He has the best measurables of all the WRs. It would be great if he could translate that into a complete WR skill set. Unfortunately, I don't hold out much hope. He is not a spring chicken. Ideally he would have shown more than just the ability to run down the field before this year. I don't think that he makes the squad.

6. Moore: Another underdog who I really like. Has speed and, unlike Lockette, the complete set of skills, although not elite. Has desire and durability, but not ideal size, but better than KW or CH. Perhaps an adequate #3, or a good #4. Perhaps he would fight out out with Hawkin for a spot on the roster?

7. Patton: Holds a lot of promise. Only lacks elite speed but appears to have all the rest, including intangibles. A good #3 type. Will definitely make the squad if healthy.

8. Manningham: Starts the season on PUP. Not durable. Lacks ideal size. Has speed, so right now would constitute Niners speed element. Smaller than Jenkins, who gets flak for being too slight. Ideally, a #3 IMO.

9. Oswood (sp?): Great size and toughness. Limited skills as a WR. Special teamer.

The others Jacobs, Hawkins, etc., are fighting some long odds? PS candidates.

Based on the above, injuries aside, our WR squad IMO is:

Boldin
Jenkins
Collie

Williams/Hall, probably Williams, if healthy.
Patton
Moore/Hall, probably Hall, if healthy
Osgood - Special Teams

PUP - Crabtree, Manningham

Rest waived, some signed to PS


Although I don't quite agree with your assessment on Jenkins, I tend to agree with you on the over-arching issue of our receiving corp as a whole. I think Crab and Anquan are pretty decent, but not quite elite. And like you said, that deep threat element has always been missing.

What do you believe to be the issue here ? Not enough priorty placed on the WR position ? Bad draft choices on WRs ? Not enough draft picks used on WRs ?

How do you suggest we resolve the issue ? Draft high and heavy on WRs for the next year or two ?
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rascal:
Although I don't quite agree with your assessment on Jenkins, I tend to agree with you on the over-arching issue of our receiving corp as a whole. I think Crab and Anquan are pretty decent, but not quite elite. And like you said, that deep threat element has always been missing.

What do you believe to be the issue here ? Not enough priorty placed on the WR position ? Bad draft choices on WRs ? Not enough draft picks used on WRs ?

How do you suggest we resolve the issue ? Draft high and heavy on WRs for the next year or two ?

I wanted us to draft two wide receivers last year.

At this point, and I do understand that we are a long way from the next draft, I do think that Baalke and Harbaugh should draft, for the lack of better words, draft wide receivers high and heavy next year.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by buck:
I wanted us to draft two wide receivers last year.

At this point, and I do understand that we are a long way from the next draft, I do think that Baalke and Harbaugh should draft, for the lack of better words, draft wide receivers high and heavy next year.

buck, am i just jaded? IF jenkins does not pan out I sure do not want us to draft any more wide outs with our first round pick. They never seem to work out for us
  • cciowa
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sorry I never should have said,, never, crabs did have one very good year and stokes did catch 63 balls for us one year but still...
Originally posted by Rascal:
Although I don't quite agree with your assessment on Jenkins, I tend to agree with you on the over-arching issue of our receiving corp as a whole. I think Crab and Anquan are pretty decent, but not quite elite. And like you said, that deep threat element has always been missing.

What do you believe to be the issue here ? Not enough priorty placed on the WR position ? Bad draft choices on WRs ? Not enough draft picks used on WRs ?

How do you suggest we resolve the issue ? Draft high and heavy on WRs for the next year or two ?

I don't have the resources available to the FO, nor am I privy to the limitations and additional information that factored into their decisions. I do, however, have the benefit of hindsight, so I can compare it to what I was wanting done at the time. Some general themes:

1. I did not like the draft performance of either Nolan or McCloughan when they were the GMs. I said so at the time, when they were actually riding a crest of popularity. I thought that they took an unacceptably long period of tie to address the most critical areas of need for the team. Neither GM seemed to have a plan. The current GM looks like he does.

2. I have been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of the current regime. Even though at first blush, they seemed to be going against what I thought was best for the team, it turned out that everything thing they did by way of roster develoment was as I would have hoped. They play it very close to the vest and did address critical areas immediately. I am very happy with their thinking and execution.

3. As a fan, one can only really critique the first two or three round draft picks versus what you yourself would have done (given less and incomplete information - lol). But one can look at what one feels were areas of need and see if those were addressed. As I have said, the previous two GMs did Not so great; the current GM has done great!

4. It's much more important to have a complete QB than a complete WR, obviously. You'll squander any WR talent you have on the team if you don't have the QB play to take advantage of it.

That said, the current problems at WR have their origins in (i) poor plannng and execution by the previous regimes, and (ii) the lack of time to address this problem afforded the current regime.

Baalke has tried to address this area and has committed 3 relatively good draft picks to address the problem in the last wo years. One first rounder. That's a significant commitment. I would not have committed more. Other more needy areas needed to be addressed. Namely, pass rush and defensive backfield. Last year in the first round, I was hoping for the Niners to select David Wilson and WR Randle in the second. Who knows how that would have worked out? And in retrospect, I wish that they had selected Jenoris Jenkins. But they went AJ/LMJ so I'm satisfied that they went WR/RB - we'll see how it works out. Collectively, I'm expecting Baalke's choices to out perform who I would have selected. And that's as it should be.

Next year, IMO I'd like to see them address db/wr (if needed) in the first two rounds. I believe that db is the more important requirement. But it all depends on who is available. If an elite WR could be drafted, I'd love to see it. Nothing more exciting than an explosive offensive with a QB capable of exploiting his weapons. But if an elite WR is not available, the defensive backfield IMO is a greater need. A great QB can make up for WR deficiences until an elite talent come along. See Brees and Brady.

Going forward, if AJ doesn't pan out, the Niners should/will keep plugging away at addressing their need for speed.
  • buck
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Originally posted by cciowa:
buck, am i just jaded? IF jenkins does not pan out I sure do not want us to draft any more wide outs with our first round pick. They never seem to work out for us

By high, I generally mean 1st or 2nd round, but high could include the third round.

I am not going to argue, at least at this point, that we should use a first round pick on a wide receiver.

Later, I might, but it would depend on a variety of factors.

Like you, I have a degree of trepidation of picking a first round wide receiver, but I do think my fear is without a solid basis.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by cciowa:
buck, am i just jaded? IF jenkins does not pan out I sure do not want us to draft any more wide outs with our first round pick. They never seem to work out for us

By high, I generally mean 1st or 2nd round, but high could include the third round.

I am not going to argue, at least at this point, that we should use a first round pick on a wide receiver.

Later, I might, but it would depend on a variety of factors.

Like you, I have a degree of trepidation of picking a first round wide receiver, but I do think my fear is without a solid basis.

Even though our WRs haven't worked out, I do not believe our scouts are incapable of finding one. Eventually, the team will draft another great WR, just hope we already have. Patton might not see any time on the field this year but the one area where he excels and the niners have needed is getting off the LOS quickly. If Harbaugh and company decides they need to draft a WR in the first round next year it's fine with me. If a great one happens to fall to their spot...grab him!

One thing missing from this discussion is development. There are many WRs in camp and the team just needs several who can run decent routes and catch the ball. Given the running game and VD/Boldin, it should not be difficult to find guys who can be somewhat effective. It is a matter of choosing the best guys and trying to keep them healthy.

Matters that impact niner WR play over the last couple of years:

Injuries: Crabtree, Manningham, Williams
New to Team: Osgood, Moore, Boldin, Lockette, Patton, Jacobs, Martin (some I can't recall from last year)
2nd Year: Jenkins
PS 2012: Hall, Palmer (gone)
FA's Losses: Moss, Ginn

The turnover at this position has really hurt, but was necessary. Baalke/Harbaugh are playing catchup after years of mismanagement of the WR position. The top three WRs from the past couple of years are all injured...that is devastating to any team, but this team will be fine due to excellent coaching and planning...just would be so much better if they could keep them healthy!
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Aug 4, 2013 at 8:47 AM ]
  • buck
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I have high hopes for Patton.

His college production was good.

He seems to have a good attitude and excellent work ethic.

He could be a little shorter, but I do not hold his lack of shortness against him.
My prediction is that those who want the Niners to draft a receiver in the first round next year will be mildly disappointed. I'd bet a lot of money that they take the best available corner in the first round and the best available receiver in the second.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
My prediction is that those who want the Niners to draft a receiver in the first round next year will be mildly disappointed. I'd bet a lot of money that they take the best available corner in the first round and the best available receiver in the second.

I'll bet they wind up with two first round choices next year and take the best players available! They have so many picks already that they can afford to do this and still get their needs fulfilled.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
My prediction is that those who want the Niners to draft a receiver in the first round next year will be mildly disappointed. I'd bet a lot of money that they take the best available corner in the first round and the best available receiver in the second.

I'll bet they wind up with two first round choices next year and take the best players available! They have so many picks already that they can afford to do this and still get their needs fulfilled.

That would be great because I definitely don't dispute the idea that they could use an impact receiver. It's just that I think they really need an impact corner as well.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
I don't have the resources available to the FO, nor am I privy to the limitations and additional information that factored into their decisions. I do, however, have the benefit of hindsight, so I can compare it to what I was wanting done at the time. Some general themes:

1. I did not like the draft performance of either Nolan or McCloughan when they were the GMs. I said so at the time, when they were actually riding a crest of popularity. I thought that they took an unacceptably long period of tie to address the most critical areas of need for the team. Neither GM seemed to have a plan. The current GM looks like he does.

2. I have been very pleasantly surprised by the performance of the current regime. Even though at first blush, they seemed to be going against what I thought was best for the team, it turned out that everything thing they did by way of roster develoment was as I would have hoped. They play it very close to the vest and did address critical areas immediately. I am very happy with their thinking and execution.

3. As a fan, one can only really critique the first two or three round draft picks versus what you yourself would have done (given less and incomplete information - lol). But one can look at what one feels were areas of need and see if those were addressed. As I have said, the previous two GMs did Not so great; the current GM has done great!

4. It's much more important to have a complete QB than a complete WR, obviously. You'll squander any WR talent you have on the team if you don't have the QB play to take advantage of it.

That said, the current problems at WR have their origins in (i) poor plannng and execution by the previous regimes, and (ii) the lack of time to address this problem afforded the current regime.

Baalke has tried to address this area and has committed 3 relatively good draft picks to address the problem in the last wo years. One first rounder. That's a significant commitment. I would not have committed more. Other more needy areas needed to be addressed. Namely, pass rush and defensive backfield. Last year in the first round, I was hoping for the Niners to select David Wilson and WR Randle in the second. Who knows how that would have worked out? And in retrospect, I wish that they had selected Jenoris Jenkins. But they went AJ/LMJ so I'm satisfied that they went WR/RB - we'll see how it works out. Collectively, I'm expecting Baalke's choices to out perform who I would have selected. And that's as it should be.

Next year, IMO I'd like to see them address db/wr (if needed) in the first two rounds. I believe that db is the more important requirement. But it all depends on who is available. If an elite WR could be drafted, I'd love to see it. Nothing more exciting than an explosive offensive with a QB capable of exploiting his weapons. But if an elite WR is not available, the defensive backfield IMO is a greater need. A great QB can make up for WR deficiences until an elite talent come along. See Brees and Brady.

Going forward, if AJ doesn't pan out, the Niners should/will keep plugging away at addressing their need for speed.


When you say Baalke had commited 3 relatively good draft picks to address the area in the last 2 years, do you mean 3 years ? As in Ronald Johnson, AJ Jenkins and Quinton Patton.That is one 6th rounder, one 1st rounder and one 4th rounder. Personally, I wouldn't have called it significant. Likewise, I agree with you that we should have committed more picks on WRs. But, going back to these 3 picks, although Jenkins' verdict is yet to be announced if you will, I guess we should both agree we don't really have to talk about Johnson right ? As for Patton, may be is still too early to cast judgement ? Unless you don't count 6th rounders, I am inclined to call it may be 1 of 3 at best (Jenkins pending until after preseason games and being optimistic on Patton). Honestly, I feel you did a more stellar job with your picks in Rueben Randle and David Wilson especially Wilson. I definitely would have preferred them over Jenkins and James.

As for next year, given we already hadn't invested enough on WRs, not to mention the misses, I can only say we will need to take a much more serious look at WRs. Elite or not, there are 2 names that jump out at me at the moment and they are Brandon Coleman and Jordan Matthews. My preference would be somone who can provide us with that legit deep threat and I see that in Coleman. But, is still early days. DBs are important too, so I agree we should very much focus on those 2 areas.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by GNielsen:
My prediction is that those who want the Niners to draft a receiver in the first round next year will be mildly disappointed. I'd bet a lot of money that they take the best available corner in the first round and the best available receiver in the second.

cornerback will be a need with two guys on the wrong side of 30 and one on a one year deal plus one coming off a major knee issue
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by buck:
By high, I generally mean 1st or 2nd round, but high could include the third round.

I am not going to argue, at least at this point, that we should use a first round pick on a wide receiver.

Later, I might, but it would depend on a variety of factors.

Like you, I have a degree of trepidation of picking a first round wide receiver, but I do think my fear is without a solid basis.
i usually create a basis to justify my fear,,, usually that basis is not solid
There is one problem we all tend to overlook, and that is when we draft, most of the time we are choosing BPA. When you desperately need WRs, and there is a guy , a mid 2nd rounder, who would be an excellent WR pick, we will more likely pick that OLB(or whatever position) who is sensational, and choose him instead. Also, our past hx , and that of others of taking WRs high in rd one, usually ends up less than sterling. So having a much better player available(other than a WR) during our pick, perhaps a steal, even, has kept us from picking some WRs high. AJ? Beats me, except for big hands and speed....and really unknown on all else..

Aside from Collie(who is injury prone, and concussions are the wrong injury if you are a WR), Patton, Lockette, Hall, Moore, et al, we are having trouble seeing what guys look like due to injury. Because of this Coach H has been working Vernon and LMJ out at WR, which I think is our best bet by far. If these young guys plus collie, can't get healthy, Vernon and LMJ are great choices, because unlike young WRs, they have a track record. Also, as we know, JH is reluctant to play rooks unless they are p-52 worthy. Our best pick this yr will end up being Vance, who will allow Vernon to play WR... and LMJ should have been playing WR some last yr. We already have a great RB tandem, and LMJ could get a lot more field time as WR than RB. So I like what Coach is thinking.

In the best of all worlds, every one of our injured WRs gets better, plays well enough and long enough for a decision to be made on who sticks and who is adios. If that can't happen, then Coach makes arbitrary picks on WRs(while injured, which means AJ makes the cut), and plays LMJ and Vernon at WR with Anquan. That thought is a lot more appealing to me than picking amongst WRs who can't play because of injury. The Collie thing I believe is going to be VERY temporary, due to nature of previous injuries. So, spreading the ball around between Anquan, LMJ, and Vernon doesn't sound like a bad bet at all. Matter of fact, I like it. Maybe with luck 1, 2 , 3, heck maybe even 4 of the WRs get healthy, play well, and earn their slots. Meantime, I happen to really like Coach's backup plan, particularly since he wouldn't have had LMJ nor Vernon at WR without all the injury stuff.

This could be the part of the law of unintended consequences, and who knows? It may turn out better than any of the WRs currently un-performing or underperforming.