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Whos the KR/PR for the 2013 season?

  • buck
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Compare the stats of Williams, James, and Hawkins as kick returners.

Both Williams and James have better numbers on kick off returns than Hawkins.

Williams lost fumble was two years ago, so I am not sure if that fumble negates his better numbers.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
They are underestimating it. Ted Ginn won several games for us in 2011 with that.

what did he do last year besides lose his job to james?
Originally posted by buck:
You are mixing up the two aspects of the return game. James, Cox or the other returners have little to do with the mistakes that we made on our coverage teams.

I find it next to impossible to think that the coaching staff is not doing anything to improve our coverage units. Have they done enough to rectify the mistakes our coverage units made? I do not know. But, we will find out.

You continue to harp about James. I understand that you wanted to keep Hawkins, but you continue to ignore the evidence of their return capacities as demonstrated in real games. Hawkins returns for the 49ers were in preseason games. They were not made, as far as we know, against the opponents top coverage units.


No, I am not even talking about kick-off coverage.

My point is the difference of 1 KR TD can be between a win or loss or even a Super Bowl. For example, instead of having Jacoby Jones scoring on us, if one of our returns had been a TD, we would have won the Super Bowl.

I harp on James cos he doesn't pass my eye test as in he is not explosive enough, lacks vision and instincts. You can't just look at stats in isolation. Tell you what, James has a higher kick-off return avaerge than David Wilson, does that mean James is a better returner than Wilson ? Heck no. LOL.

If you look at Hawkins' stats, he was only used in kick-off return in 2 years when he was with the Titans. Before 2012, last time he was used was 2008. If you look at his 2012 numbers he was on par with James. I don't call 29.29 yards for Hawkins Vs 29.79 yards for James a difference. But, what you can't quantify is may be the 9ers have better blockers or may be Hawkins is a late starter or may be he wasn't given enough opportunities. This is where the eye test comes in.
[ Edited by Rascal on Sep 4, 2013 at 8:45 PM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rascal:
No, I am not even talking about kick-off coverage.

My point is the difference of 1 KR TD can be between a win or loss or even a Super Bowl. For example, instead of having Jacoby Jones scoring on us, if one of our returns had been a TD, we would have won the Super Bowl.

I harp on James cos he doesn't pass my eye test. You can't just look at stats in isolation. Tell you what, James has a higher kick-off return avaerge than David Wilson, does that mean James is a better returner than Wilson ? Heck no. LOL.

This question is do the stats indicate that either James or Williams is a better kick-off returner than Hawkins.

What exactly have you seen him do in a regular season game to pass your eye test. You constantly claim we have no one that can return kicks.

I am not claiming that James or Williams are excellent, but I am challenging the validity of your claims that without Hawkins we have no one capable of making a big play on kick returns.
[ Edited by buck on Sep 4, 2013 at 9:19 PM ]
  • buck
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If you look at Hawkins' stats, he was only used in kick-off return in 2 years when he was with the Titans. Before 2012, last time he was used was 2008. If you look at his 2012 numbers he was on par with James. I don't call 29.29 yards for Hawkins Vs 29.79 yards for James a difference. But, what you can't quantify is may be the 9ers have better blockers or may be Hawkins is a late starter or may be he wasn't given enough opportunities. This is where the eye test comes in.

What can not be quantified becomes an argument in favor of your eye test?

The stats from last seem to show that James in his first year in league is marginally better than Hawkins who has been in league for five years.

There are many variables that we do not know and those variables cut both ways.

Maybe Hawkins never got more opportunities because he did not earn them. May be the blocking for Hawkins was better or approximately the same. James may improve as he matures in the league. Maybe...... god knows what.

Again I am not claiming that James or Williams are fantastic.

You are making an absolute claim. You are claiming we have no one who can do damage on kick returns. Your claim is excessive.
[ Edited by buck on Sep 4, 2013 at 9:17 PM ]
Originally posted by buck:
This question is do the stats indicate that either James or Williams is a better kick-off returner than Hawkins.

What exactly have you seen him do in a regular season game to pass your eye test. You constantly claim we have no one that can return kicks.

I am not claiming that James or Williams are excellent, but I am challenging the validity of your claims that without Hawkins we have no one capable of making a big play on kick returns.


That is precisely what I am saying as in stats don't always tell the whole story.

I am not claiming Lavelle Hawkins as the God of Kick Returns per se neither, but the comments of lack of explosiveness, decisiveness and vision are based on my years of watching football which some of our fellow posters have also agreed on. While you are saying neither James or Williams are excellent, I guess what we are saying here is Hawkins is at least better than the aforementioned. We also seem to agree Perish Cox is the second in line given Hawkins is no longer with us.

This is an opinion or at least our opinions on the subject matter, you may or may not agree with it, that is fine too.

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
They are underestimating it. Ted Ginn won several games for us in 2011 with that.

what did he do last year besides lose his job to james?

He didn't lose his job to James. James is a disaster out there returning. They didn't want to pay Ginn and he had other offers with other teams who were willing to pay him. James returns because Ginn left for more money than we were willing to pay him. But it's not like he beat him out in some competition.
Originally posted by buck:
What can not be quantified becomes an argument in favor of your eye test?

The stats from last seem to show that James in his first year in league is marginally better than Hawkins who has been in league for five years.

There are many variables that we do not know and those variables cut both ways.

Maybe Hawkins never got more opportunities because he did not earn them. May be the blocking for Hawkins was better or approximately the same. James may improve as he matures in the league. Maybe...... god knows what.

Again I am not claiming that James or Williams are fantastic.

You are making an absolute claim. You are claiming we have no one who can do damage on kick returns. Your claim is excessive.


Well, there we have it, it just means you can't be over-reliant on the stats. Given noone can possibly quantify on why Hawkins hadn't done more before 2012, then there is no point in talking about it. That is precisely why I am going by my eye test. I know what I have seen and this is my opinion. When I look at Hawkins, I see a guy with potential and potential to make big plays. The explosiveness factor at least to me is quite apparent, of course not to the level of say a David Wilson, but at least in relative terms is far better than James. More importantly, you hear us talking about the "naturalness" factor, this is key cos the best returners are instinctual runners who can make split second decisions in identifying the best return route as opposed to over-thinking it and hesitating too much waiting for gaps to develop.
Williams will return a punt for a TD on Sunday.
  • buck
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Originally posted by Rascal:
That is precisely what I am saying as in stats don't always tell the whole story.

I am not claiming Lavelle Hawkins as the God of Kick Returns per se neither, but the comments of lack of explosiveness, decisiveness and vision are based on my years of watching football which some of our fellow posters have also agreed on. While you are saying neither James or Williams are excellent, I guess what we are saying here is Hawkins is at least better than the aforementioned. We also seem to agree Perish Cox is the second in line given Hawkins is no longer with us.

This is an opinion or at least our opinions on the subject matter, you may or may not agree with it, that is fine too.

Sure we disagree. Not exactly sure who the we is, but I am certainly not saying that Hawkins is better than James or Williams.

Your claim has not been merely that Hawkins is better.

You have repeatedly claimed that with the loss of Hawkins, we have no one capable of doing damage on kick returns.

If you continue to claim that we have no one who is capable of doing any damage on kick returns, I will continue to disagree.

Your claim is so excessive that I find it difficult to accept the validity of your eye test--an eye test that seems to be based primarily on one good return by Hawkins in a preseason game. A return that was made against a coverage team made up of players fighting for a roster spot. Some would say a return made against scrubs.

  • mayo49
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What was the reason Ginn wasn't re-signed again? Was he asking for too much money?
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
He didn't lose his job to James. James is a disaster out there returning. They didn't want to pay Ginn and he had other offers with other teams who were willing to pay him. James returns because Ginn left for more money than we were willing to pay him. But it's not like he beat him out in some competition.
uhm, at the end of the year,, ginn was not returning kicks because he lost his job to james. that is a fact, not one of my chicken little opinions but that is fact. why in the hell would you want to pay gin who at the end of last year was doing one thing and that was punt returns. he was not doing kickoffs, he was not catching any receptions, despite the built in excuse by some that we did not give him a chance,... his body of work at the end of the year was to catch the punt, run five yards and run out of bounds... yes that is a reason to "pay the man" ... come on,, you saw james returning kicks, he was very very good. no one ever said he does a good job returning punts
  • cciowa
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  • Posts: 22,987
Originally posted by mayo49:
What was the reason Ginn wasn't re-signed again? Was he asking for too much money?
he was a one trick pony. he did zero as a wide out and lost his kick return job to james. we got one good year out of him, we got our moneys worth( 4th or 5th round pick? can not remember). james is a very good kick returner, he showed it last year and i do not understand those who say he is not, if you watched the games you would have seen he did a good job. holding down that job till he comes back is kyle and hunter which is more than ok. punt returns james sucks but thats ok cuz we got kyle and cox and that is more than fine. we got to the super bowl with ginn running five yards and then going out of bounds so i foresee no issue there this year.
  • mayo49
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Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by mayo49:
What was the reason Ginn wasn't re-signed again? Was he asking for too much money?
he was a one trick pony. he did zero as a wide out and lost his kick return job to james. we got one good year out of him, we got our moneys worth( 4th or 5th round pick? can not remember). james is a very good kick returner, he showed it last year and i do not understand those who say he is not, if you watched the games you would have seen he did a good job. holding down that job till he comes back is kyle and hunter which is more than ok. punt returns james sucks but thats ok cuz we got kyle and cox and that is more than fine. we got to the super bowl with ginn running five yards and then going out of bounds so i foresee no issue there this year.


Your right, now I remember, he was s**tty too. Can't forget how many times he ran out of bounds in kickoffs.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 22,987
Originally posted by mayo49:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by mayo49:
What was the reason Ginn wasn't re-signed again? Was he asking for too much money?
he was a one trick pony. he did zero as a wide out and lost his kick return job to james. we got one good year out of him, we got our moneys worth( 4th or 5th round pick? can not remember). james is a very good kick returner, he showed it last year and i do not understand those who say he is not, if you watched the games you would have seen he did a good job. holding down that job till he comes back is kyle and hunter which is more than ok. punt returns james sucks but thats ok cuz we got kyle and cox and that is more than fine. we got to the super bowl with ginn running five yards and then going out of bounds so i foresee no issue there this year.


Your right, now I remember, he was s**tty too. Can't forget how many times he ran out of bounds in kickoffs.
if you remember even when he had his one very very good year for us in 2011 no one gave him an offer and he had to crawl back to us for a one year deal. It was a very wise move by the front office to give him a one year cheap deal because in my opinion, that is exactly what he deserved for his body of work last year. he and jenkins just pissed me off last year when we had our injuries and they both had the perfect chance to step in but of course they pissed it down their legs. I would get so mad at him last year I wanted to kick your penis and I am sorry about that bud
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