There are 95 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Aldon Smith vs. DeMarcus Ware

Originally posted by jvangeystel:
@JimDrinkAMiller
I believe the reason you don't care what PFF is saying is because it doesn't support your opinion. I understand that under the weight of attempting to reach and win a superbowl stats are least important. That being said, during the offseason and after a player's career is over what other form of measurement is there? The stats clearly show that as of right now Aldon drops into coverage more often and has a higher rate of success. He is also better at stopping the run. Some may discredit Aldon because of the defense he plays on, but I say that helps prove his skill. He shines even when there are other highly skilled players on the team. He is a shiny diamond in a bag full rather than a diamond laying in a pile of mud. I just don't understand how someone could deny that he was the better player at every aspect of the game than Ware last season. It would also be a hard argument to claim that Ware will have a better season this year.

Nobody knows whether Aldon is a product of his environment or how the two players would do if they were allowed to switch spots. To argue that is taking the easy way out because it cannot be proven wrong and also cannot be proven right. So who do you believe is the better all around player in 2013?


Aldon, I have always said that aldon will be the better player going forward. I just think that these past 2 seasons ware has been better overall. It would also be interesting to see when ware suffered his injuries to see how that affected his play. Being able to play through all those injuries and still perform the way ware did is nothing short of amazing, but I am done debating this. f**k the boys.
I think the only thing ware has on aldon now is more experience.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Thank you for shattering pre-conceived notions with real numbers and not opinions. I appreciate that. Let me add that Smith has 33.5 sacks over the last two seasons compared to Ware's 31 and they have a very similar number of tackles over that period - Smith 80 and Ware 81 - remembering that Ware started twice as many games over the past two seasons.

Not to mention Ware is all he is going to be. Aldon is still young and learning. Aldon is STILL the better player RIGHT NOW. He will only get better.

Aldon > Ware
Originally posted by buck:

I have also noticed that now some people are saying that Aldon's numbers are a by product not only of playing behind Justin Smith, but also of playing along side of Willis and Bowman. The argument seems to continue expanding. If I remember correctly, some have also added that he is getting some of the his sacks because the secondary is forcing the quarterbacks to hold the ball longer.

There is no denying that all of the above factors do indeed help Aldon Smith do his job better, I just find it odd that I never hear similar remarks being made about any other of our Pro Bowl players.

I agree, it's a stupid argument. There are 11 players on offense and defense that contribute and help mold a player into what he is. You could take Adrian Peterson and put him behind the 2012 Cardinals line and while he would have better numbers than Beanie Wells, he would still get demolished. That's a lot of the reason why high dollar free agents rarely pan out. They were great in the system they played in, with the players they had around them. Take them out of that and can easily go from special player to average or bad. The only defensive players I can even think of who were star players and went on to success on another team in the past few years are Julius Peppers and Bart Scott.
[ Edited by Disp on Jul 3, 2013 at 10:34 AM ]
Originally posted by Disp:
Originally posted by buck:

I have also noticed that now some people are saying that Aldon's numbers are a by product not only of playing behind Justin Smith, but also of playing along side of Willis and Bowman. The argument seems to continue expanding. If I remember correctly, some have also added that he is getting some of the his sacks because the secondary is forcing the quarterbacks to hold the ball longer.

There is no denying that all of the above factors do indeed help Aldon Smith do his job better, I just find it odd that I never hear similar remarks being made about any other of our Pro Bowl players.

I agree, it's a stupid argument. There are 11 players on offense and defense that contribute and help mold a player into what he is. You could take Adrian Peterson and put him behind the 2012 Cardinals line and while he would have better numbers than Beanie Wells, he would still get demolished. That's a lot of the reason why high dollar free agents rarely pan out. They were great in the system they played in, with the players they had around them. Take them out of that and can easily go from special player to average or bad. The only defensive players I can even think of who were star players and went on to success on another team in the past few years are Julius Peppers and Bart Scott.

Funny because I can think of 2 players on our current roster.. how about J smith or C rogers? It isn't a stupid argument at all. But do me a favor and don't sound so uninformed when you make a comment like that.
Carlo rogers was star with the redskins before us. I dont remeber him being too special there.
Originally posted by buck:
Pass Coverage # 1

I have heard two claims with regularity.

1. The first claim is that DeMarcus is asked to do more in coverage than Aldon.

The two are among the 28 outside linebackers that dropped into coverage more than 50 times in 2012.

Their rankings among this group are:

Drops

16th Smith--88 times
26th Ware—66 times

Targeted

13th Smith—12 times
19th Ware—10 times

2. The second claim is that Ware is better in coverage.

Yards given up per coverage snap

11th Aldon Smith--0.75 yard
26th DeMarcus Ware--1.22 yards

Receptions given up per snap

21st Aldon Smith--1 reception for every 8.8 snaps.
26th DeMarcus Ware--1 reception for every 7 snaps.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/data/signature.php?tab=signature&season=2012&stype=r&pos=3oc&teamid=-1&filter=25

This is some interesting information.

Buit I think it's a little off the point to compare Ware, now, and Aldon, now. The injuries and age factor distort the discussion. The question really is, will a healthy Aldon be as good a player as a healthy Ware was in his prime?

Can you get PFF numbers for Ware circa 2007, 2008? What do they look like?

Also, have we ever gotten to the bottom of the PFF tackle stats question, whether tackles includes sacks or not?

Earlier, posters vouched for Aldon's impact against the run. That's good to hear because it was an area that I just don't recall witnessing very much in televised games (pre-injury).

This has nothing to do with stats. It's not really a stats thing -- it's just a result of my anecdotal impressions. I never had a chance to see Aldon really lay out a back -- I can recall Willis, Bowman doing that + Brooks too from 2011. but not too many recollections of Aldon doing that.

Now, I understand why in 2011 that would be the case -- he was used as a situational pass rusher often, so not too many chances to bring down RB. So, that's kind of expected as far as I'm concerned for 2011.

ANd for 2012, I get the fact that he will commit to pass rush at the line a disproportionate number of times by scheme. I get that too. So he may always be a little off angle when someone calls a draw or pitch to his side. i get that. But I still am hoping to see more of that smashmouth play from him against TE's and backfield players, even if it's not for a tackle -- just to be hitting people.

If anyone has clips, highlights, please post -- I think I just am not watching the right games. I only see 3-5 a year.

By the way, yes he was disruptive against Atlanta...although you could also see him hesitate just fractions in making contact as game wore on due to shoulder -- no knock there, he was in pain.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
I think the only thing ware has on aldon now is more experience.

Ware is faster, they both appear to have the same size. I think the times for 40 are 4.56 vs 4.74.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Ware is faster, they both appear to have the same size. I think the times for 40 are 4.56 vs 4.74.

That 4.56 is an 8 year old number.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Carlo rogers was star with the redskins before us. I dont remeber him being too special there.

if we're going to call bart scott a star then yeah
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Funny because I can think of 2 players on our current roster.. how about J smith or C rogers? It isn't a stupid argument at all. But do me a favor and don't sound so uninformed when you make a comment like that.

Yeah I don't remember either of them being stars before signing with the 49ers. Smith was good, but not elite before joining the Niners. Rodgers signed a 1 year prove it contract and wasn't a high value free agent whatsoever.

Nate Clements
Mario Williams
Albert Haynesworth
Nnamdi Asomugha

Bart Scott wasn't really a star either, you're right. I was just trying to think of players regarded as elite or close to it who left a team and had similar success elsewhere, and couldn't think of any others than Peppers. Scott signed a huge contract with the Jets in 2009 though; $8 or $9 mil./yr.
[ Edited by Disp on Jul 3, 2013 at 12:09 PM ]
Originally posted by GNielsen:
That 4.56 is an 8 year old number.

Yes, but we're comparing apples to apples. Young Ware= Young Aldon (i.e. Aldon now).

You know, I come off pretty crabby about Aldon. But. really, he's pretty young. I mean, really really young. And he already has 2 years of all pro nfl experience and accomplishment. I'm optimistic he will improve in every phase of the game over time.
Originally posted by Disp:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Funny because I can think of 2 players on our current roster.. how about J smith or C rogers? It isn't a stupid argument at all. But do me a favor and don't sound so uninformed when you make a comment like that.

Yeah I don't remember either of them being stars before signing with the 49ers. Smith was good, but not elite before joining the Niners. Rodgers signed a 1 year prove it contract and wasn't a high value free agent whatsoever.

Nate Clements
Mario Williams
Albert Haynesworth
Nnamdi Asomugha

Bart Scott wasn't really a star either, you're right. I was just trying to think of players regarded as elite or close to it who left a team and had similar success elsewhere, and couldn't think of any others than Peppers. Scott signed a huge contract with the Jets in 2009 though; $8 or $9 mil./yr.


Richard Seymour and Charles Woodson come to mind. Reggie White and Deion also come to mind. I can name a bunch of old players that were superstars with multiple teams and I'm sure if I did the research I could find some recent players as well.

My point is that Ware was put in a very difficult position to succeed this past year. I don't know which arm was injured or if it was both but your talking about every major joint in his arm being damaged. Then you throw a torn Hammy on top of it which I have never suffered but I would figure it would be more painful than a strain which is enough to sideline lesser players. You add the fact that his team's coaching and defense were nowhere on the level that the 49ers are. I think with all that said demarcus had a phenomenal year. I believe that if they were to be traded last year and ware was healthy than he could easily be a 20 sack per year guy for us if not more. And that he would've been better all around. I doubt that aldon could get as many sacks as he did on a s**tty d like dallas. But we will never know.

If you want to crown him than crown his ass! I'm glad we have aldon going forward and not ware. He is younger and has a higher ceiling.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
1. Aldon has Justin.
Now I'm not one of those guys who says Aldon gets all of his sacks because of Justin. But to act like Justin doesn't play a big role would be naive. Ware doesn't have a Justin Smith on his defense.

2. Double teams
The 49ers simply have too much talent on their defense. Who sees majority of the double teams on D? J smith. When teams gameplan for the cowboys it seems like their objective is to take Ware out of the game. While teams still do gameplan against aldon, they can't put as much focus into stopping him like they can ware, and ware still makes plays.

3. Pass defense.
While the cowboys might have the edge on corners, we still have the better overall pass defense. Our guys do a better job making it difficult for the opposing receivers to get open, thus giving aldon more time to get after the qb. We typically don't send heavy blitz. Credit should be given to our guys on D for being able to get so much pressure with only 4 guys. Teams typically aren't able to escape from Aldon either because we usually do a good job collapsing the pocket.

4. Overall defense
We put Aldon in better situations to get after the qb by A. forcing them into more 3rd and long situations and B. making teams more 1 dimentional on 1st and 2nd down because they know it's going to be hard to run the ball on us. (ex. week 1 against GB) Our run defense gave up less than 30 ypg than the boys.

I was not aware the severity of the injuries to ware either but that should also tell you what kind of player he is to still be effective with all those nagging injuries. Maybe that also explains why it looks like he lost a step.

It is my opinion that Ware is better in coverage and against the run. I don't care what PFF says on the matter. There are too many variables. Aldon is better at getting after the qb but some credit has to be give to the rest of the defense and the coaching staff. I don't think the same can be said for dallas' defense or coaching staff seeing as how they just got rid of ryan. I know you disagree but I don't mind, my opinion hasn't changed.

Aldon might just be the best passrusher to ever come into the league. What he has done in 2 years is nothing short of amazing. He has the highest ceiling out of any OLB in the history of the game IMO maybe even any linebacker period. The fact that he had to transition to LB and that he came in pretty young means he still has a lot of growing to do. He also could be one of those guys that tears it up his 1st couple of years and fizzles out. Let's hope that isn't the case.

I am ecstatic that we have arguably 4 or 5 (depending on who you talk to) best players at their positions in the league. And if you were to tell me that Aldon had the best shot to be the best player on our defense when he was drafted, I probably (like most 49er fans) would have told you your crazy.

Smith is really good, but he is not the best pass rusher to ever come into the league and his ceiling at OLB, though very high, is not the highest. Those distinctions go to Lawrence Taylor, in my humble opinion.
Originally posted by midrdan:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
1. Aldon has Justin.
Now I'm not one of those guys who says Aldon gets all of his sacks because of Justin. But to act like Justin doesn't play a big role would be naive. Ware doesn't have a Justin Smith on his defense.

2. Double teams
The 49ers simply have too much talent on their defense. Who sees majority of the double teams on D? J smith. When teams gameplan for the cowboys it seems like their objective is to take Ware out of the game. While teams still do gameplan against aldon, they can't put as much focus into stopping him like they can ware, and ware still makes plays.

3. Pass defense.
While the cowboys might have the edge on corners, we still have the better overall pass defense. Our guys do a better job making it difficult for the opposing receivers to get open, thus giving aldon more time to get after the qb. We typically don't send heavy blitz. Credit should be given to our guys on D for being able to get so much pressure with only 4 guys. Teams typically aren't able to escape from Aldon either because we usually do a good job collapsing the pocket.

4. Overall defense
We put Aldon in better situations to get after the qb by A. forcing them into more 3rd and long situations and B. making teams more 1 dimentional on 1st and 2nd down because they know it's going to be hard to run the ball on us. (ex. week 1 against GB) Our run defense gave up less than 30 ypg than the boys.

I was not aware the severity of the injuries to ware either but that should also tell you what kind of player he is to still be effective with all those nagging injuries. Maybe that also explains why it looks like he lost a step.

It is my opinion that Ware is better in coverage and against the run. I don't care what PFF says on the matter. There are too many variables. Aldon is better at getting after the qb but some credit has to be give to the rest of the defense and the coaching staff. I don't think the same can be said for dallas' defense or coaching staff seeing as how they just got rid of ryan. I know you disagree but I don't mind, my opinion hasn't changed.

Aldon might just be the best passrusher to ever come into the league. What he has done in 2 years is nothing short of amazing. He has the highest ceiling out of any OLB in the history of the game IMO maybe even any linebacker period. The fact that he had to transition to LB and that he came in pretty young means he still has a lot of growing to do. He also could be one of those guys that tears it up his 1st couple of years and fizzles out. Let's hope that isn't the case.

I am ecstatic that we have arguably 4 or 5 (depending on who you talk to) best players at their positions in the league. And if you were to tell me that Aldon had the best shot to be the best player on our defense when he was drafted, I probably (like most 49er fans) would have told you your crazy.

Smith is really good, but he is not the best pass rusher to ever come into the league and his ceiling at OLB, though very high, is not the highest. Those distinctions go to Lawrence Taylor, in my humble opinion.


I'm on the fence. Aldon has a bunch of sacks so far but there is no doubt Lawrence was the best from the OLB position. I do think alodn's ceiling is higher though. He came in a rawer player than Lawrence.