There are 75 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

HaRoMan - 2013 Offense

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Here's a hint...
  • Don't run up the middle on 1st down
  • Use your TE's right behind the blitzing LBers
  • Don't roll out right naked and only target Crabtree

From your lips to Roman''s ears!

Great post NC! Agree with most and have just a couple of comments--

Formations--Harbaugh/Roman will continue to use massive numbers of formations and run different plays from them…just have to wait and enjoy seeing what they do. I'm not sure whether some of the problems over the past two years involve the players being not quite ready for every formation, but this year should be a break out year for the passing game.

Divided Roles--not sure whether Harbaugh will change this too much, but the coaches may work better together for the same reason as stated above for the players…time together or more synergism. One reason to keep all the coaches involved is to replace a guy if he finds a better job elsewhere and to keep them all in the game.

James is a better pure runner than Sproles (IMO). He can work on his hands but Hunter is closer to Sproles than James at this point…although I don't like that comparison either. This has to be the best backfield in the NFL…by far! I can't think of another team with four potential stars at HB.

Non-roster spots: I see BJ as making the team as a ST player or practice player, but not sure he would replace either Colt or Scott at the QB spot. I hope they can protect their non-roster players but that will be very difficult this year. May have to count on the second tier guys to come back on the PS after some guys are signed elsewhere.

Lastly, this coming year I hope they attack the middle in the passing game a bit more, especially in the RZ, and limit the runs into a stacked D. Spreading the field will help CK and the RBs and would be a return to a WCO staple. Mangini will help Roman and crew understand what defenses will be doing in the game prep more than scripting plays or calling plays.

NC's Concerns:

· Bone-headed calls at the worst times--some very odd calls

· Plays often seemed to come in very late esp. during critical times (even later)--time in system should help here.

· Outsmarted on several occasions (clearly)--this will happen but I hope Mangini helps lessen the impact here.

· Very slow starts (the anti-WCO approach)--wouldn't mind if the first series was used to set up the D but not sure this is happening.

· Not playing to momentum--this has been too frequent. They seem to have a plan and stick with it rather than giving players their heads. Trust?

· Tunnel vision plays (Gore, Gore, Crabtree)--trust? I believe they did not totally trust the young guys and relied too heavily on Gore and Crabtree, especially after Hunter and other injuries.

Wow, nice post!

And you made me think about the trust issue. Why is that? Is it b/c a guy like Jenkins is being asked to learn all three WR positions plus potentially, learning plays where he is lined up out of the Q formation next to CK? So is it the players issues with retaining or is our playbook/philosophy is so complex it takes at least 2+ years to learn. Now granted, in a real, pure WCO, it takes a minimum of 3 years to master (many say the 3-4 defense is the same). So keep that in mind. But with all the personnel, shifts, formations, jumbo packages, etc. is it just much harder to execute and as a result, teams are identifying "dead give-aways" and plays are getting off rushed and ill-prepared?

And like you said...perhaps another off season of experience will make all of this a moot point.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Wow, nice post!

And you made me think about the trust issue. Why is that? Is it b/c a guy like Jenkins is being asked to learn all three WR positions plus potentially, learning plays where he is lined up out of the Q formation next to CK? So is it the players issues with retaining or is our playbook/philosophy is so complex it takes at least 2+ years to learn. Now granted, in a real, pure WCO, it takes a minimum of 3 years to master (many say the 3-4 defense is the same). So keep that in mind. But with all the personnel, shifts, formations, jumbo packages, etc. is it just much harder to execute and as a result, teams are identifying "dead give-aways" and plays are getting off rushed and ill-prepared?

And like you said...perhaps another off season of experience will make all of this a moot point.

Thanks NC--In this complex game, rookies are relegated to STs and back ups more and more...it is a rare guy who can come in and start immediately. Even when they do, the coaches often scale back the number of options they have to worry about. Uh ohh...we have Jenkins in there so we can't run these plays he hasn't had a chance to master!

But James, Jenkins, and CK are a year more mature this year and should elevate their games...scary considering CK may have just scratched the surface as a passer last year!
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Wow, nice post!

And you made me think about the trust issue. Why is that? Is it b/c a guy like Jenkins is being asked to learn all three WR positions plus potentially, learning plays where he is lined up out of the Q formation next to CK? So is it the players issues with retaining or is our playbook/philosophy is so complex it takes at least 2+ years to learn. Now granted, in a real, pure WCO, it takes a minimum of 3 years to master (many say the 3-4 defense is the same). So keep that in mind. But with all the personnel, shifts, formations, jumbo packages, etc. is it just much harder to execute and as a result, teams are identifying "dead give-aways" and plays are getting off rushed and ill-prepared?

And like you said...perhaps another off season of experience will make all of this a moot point.

Thanks NC--In this complex game, rookies are relegated to STs and back ups more and more...it is a rare guy who can come in and start immediately. Even when they do, the coaches often scale back the number of options they have to worry about. Uh ohh...we have Jenkins in there so we can't run these plays he hasn't had a chance to master!

But James, Jenkins, and CK are a year more mature this year and should elevate their games...scary considering CK may have just scratched the surface as a passer last year!

Absolutely and I forgot to mention your last point. I think people are going to find out what kind of passer CK really is this year (not that he didn't demonstrate it last year IMHO but it was overshadowed by his "athleticism").

This was sort of the point of this post...about the potential evolution of our offense. How do others perceive it to be THIS year with a full off season and new/old weapons (more experience). Remember, we were game planning for each game last year specifically d/t a change in QB's, change in formations/philosophy, injuries, lack of prep time d/t the playoff run, etc.

So one would expect, the first 6 games should REALLY be our true identity. And what do people guesstimate that to be for the start of 2013 and beyond?
[ Edited by NCommand on Jul 16, 2013 at 11:44 AM ]
Just an opinion, but I think there will be a major shift to pure pocket passing, altho it still can come out of the multiple formations we have available. I think Coach H got the RG3 message, and saw what happens when you design runs for your passer. If he is a potential all pro or already one, running the Qb by design is not a great idea. Sure we enjoy the exciting runs, and also the Ws, but if JH intentionally runs kap this yr I will be amazed. The injury factor is just too high...way too high. And if he goes, sure Colt can pick the guys up. But going to and winning the SB? After watching the SB way too many times, without Kap, I just don't see us making it out of the playoffs... and most other folks don't either. Actually, most don't even think about it. But I would bet the farm, JH has thot about it many times and in great depth. Kap could be so much fun to watch this yr, given the green lite to run when he can. But I just don't think JH wants to take that risk....and I agree with him. Hence, lots of formations, lots of runs by our RBs, and pocket passing by kap. Just a guess, but it is what I expect. Like others, that disappoints me, but nobody wants to see our QB leave the field on a cart..a la RG3.
Originally posted by NCommand:
HaRoMan = Harbaugh - Roman - Mangini

Aside from making myself chuckle a bit, it genuinely got me thinking about this years offense in the midst of our potential offensive evolution.

Historically, it's been well documented that a HaRoman offense means a heavy ground game with two TE's with multiple formations/packages, shifts, audibles, alignments and some play-action.

But right now, we are in the midst of an offensive revolution IMO so lets take a look at some key points:
  • Q formation - once CK came on board, we ran more and more of this formation. It means two backs lined up next to the QB in shotgun. I don't think this formation can be more overstated. From this formation, we ran QB-options and both RB's (Gore/James) had to learn how to run out of it. The timing is very different and that also affected the blocking of the OL. Once everyone was on the same page, it was VERY effective and I expect we'll see this formation more and more and more.
  • Shotgun - b/c of the Q formation (and even without) CK was in a shotgun formation a large portion of the time which also affected snaps from Goodwin.
  • Injuries - we had key injuries to Hunter (off-tackle runner), and to Williams and Manningham last year. These guys plus FA/draft players we brought will add to a whole slew of talent to the mix despite Crabtree going down.
  • Crabtree - was CK's primary receiver last year so this injury forces a better "spread it around" mentality.
  • Mangini - was hired as a Sr. Assistant to Roman. While many believe he was merely brought in as a consultant to provide a tactical "defensive" perspective for how effective our offense would be or not be, many are dismissing the fact that he is also learning our offense as well. Most likely, he not only will provide a defensive insight but will also provide insight on how to attack defenses using OUR offense. He will add to the offensive game plan and help ensure our best weapons are utilized properly against the defenses we'll be facing each week. For instance, if we're playing a 3-4 defense, he'll know the best way to attack that is in the middle of the field behind the LOS and before the S's (usually with a TE or slot WR or RB's). If we're playing a 4-3 or 4-6, teams with great pass rushes, etc. he'll know how to attack them as well.
  • Offseason - this will be the first offseason CK will be the clear-cut starter and we design an offense around his still-set and use all the weapons we (now) have.
  • Unfinished business - needless to say, a high character team like this is hell bent on atoning for last year's sin (not winning the Superbowl and going 6 for 6). And let's not forget the added motivation to beat Seattle and the Rams too!
  • Year 3 - typically, this is the year trending for an HC/OC/DC is salient. That can be good (Roman?) or bad (e.g. Fangio's track record).
  • The Big 3 - here is where I see potentially the biggest difference in 2013. Last years game plan comprised of Roman drawing up the running game plays while Johnny Morton drew up the passing game and Geep Chryst did the red zone plays. Roman called the shots during the game and made adjustments as needed. This year, we could be seeing a shift to more Roman and Mangini. Roman showed he can be a genius with the running game, his forte, but now it's time to be less compartmentalized and complete an entire game plan on his own IMHO (with the added help from Mangini/Harbaugh). This could help with the "flow" better; something we all noticed last year.

Now let's take a look at our potential weapons for 2013; we're assuming the OL is the same or even better eventually (e.g. Kilgore./Looney replace Goodwin)
  • Colin Kaepernick, Colt McCoy/Scott Tolzien and B.J. Daniels - either Colt or Scott will provide veteran leadership (NFL starting experience or experience in OUR offense, respectively). B.J. is the perfect Russell Wilson-clone to practice against and can play ST and appears to be playing QB well.
  • Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter and LaMichael James; Marcus Lattimore (PUP) - we aren't sure if Anthony Dixon, Jewel Hampton and D.J. Harper will be with us but we know what we have in Dixon already. Hampton could be a surprise as a pure runner as well and Marcus is red-shirted all year long and is the heir to Gore. Having Kendall back is huge as he was Gore's off-tackle runner that helped make Gore even more effective inside the T's in a 1 RB/FB formation. James can add to this element as well or be used in a Sproles-like manner. All three can be used in MANY ways.
  • Bruce Miller and Jason Scheplar; Alex Debniak (IR) - Bruce is a pro bowler in my book and vital to our running success. He is also a reliable receiver that isn't used much. Jason could be a surprise win here and could add on ST as well. We have no depth behind Miller.
  • A.J. Jenkins/Ricardo Lockette (X), Quinton Patton/Kyle Williams (Y) Anquan Boldin (Z); Mario Manningham & Michael Crabtree (PUP) - Kassim Osgood and Marlon Moore are all right on that bubble IMHO; they can be gunners with their speed on ST, return kicks and even provide some size mismatches in the RZ and add that deep threat as well. I expect we'll bring Manningham along slowly.
  • Vernon Davis, Vance McDonald and MarQueis Gray (H-back) - Garrett Celek is well known as well and could make it again.

Assessment:
CK has already trained like a champion this off season and he brought some friends along as well. Now he'll have even more brain power behind his game plans with TIME to build chemistry with all of his old/new weapons. Once the receiver proves worthy, like with Crabtree, CK will "trust" him...we're already seeing that with Boldin and McDonald during OTA's. Hunter/James bring back the off-tackle runs that killed defenses the start of last year with Gore blowing up inside the T's as always. Together and at the same TIME in the backfield from the Q, they keep defenses off balance big time. Running both out of the Q formation is going to be a nightmare for defenses even more (esp. b/c Hunter can run inside as well so how do you defend it?). All three are very good pass protectors. I think with Boldin, VD, McDonald and potentially Lockette (and Osgood), we're going to see a much more physical WR group than in years past (when Crabtree was smaller and weak off the LOS, Williams, AJ, etc.). I have a strong feeling that Davis, McDonald and even Gray are going to be central to both our passing and running game.

We keep hearing the term "new wrinkles" being folded into our base offense. That said, the final piece to this is, what to YOU think our offense will look like this year? Do you think the foundation will change a lot? Style? Or if you think the base and philosophy remains the same, what new wrinkles do you see coming? Feel free to post predictions if that helps provide perspectives.

Wow you know your stuff bro..
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Just an opinion, but I think there will be a major shift to pure pocket passing, altho it still can come out of the multiple formations we have available. I think Coach H got the RG3 message, and saw what happens when you design runs for your passer. If he is a potential all pro or already one, running the Qb by design is not a great idea.

I think you are spot on on this one...WAY less designed runs unless it's the playoffs and we're playing Green Bay again
Originally posted by bdub2588:
Wow you know your stuff bro..

Much appreciated...Niner passion! Ha
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Just an opinion, but I think there will be a major shift to pure pocket passing, altho it still can come out of the multiple formations we have available. I think Coach H got the RG3 message, and saw what happens when you design runs for your passer. If he is a potential all pro or already one, running the Qb by design is not a great idea.

I think you are spot on on this one...WAY less designed runs unless it's the playoffs and we're playing Green Bay again

Yeah been thinking same, its only rational and intelligent. JH is far from stupid. That said, there will be a few in the regular season just to freak out potential playoff opponents. So they know its coming when we are on the stretch for the big game. They will keep him quiet overall, from a designed run standpoint, during the regular.

Then once in the playoffs....we will unleash the beast!
My only concern with trying to make CK a pure pocket passer is that he seems to be energized when escaping the pocket and may actually avoid hits better with his speed to the outside than standing in the pocket.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
My only concern with trying to make CK a pure pocket passer is that he seems to be energized when escaping the pocket and may actually avoid hits better with his speed to the outside than standing in the pocket.

And that is what will happen. He is like Steve Young, when it breaks down he sees daylight and does incredible stuff without passing. It won't be designed when he takes off.
dtg, I didn't mean to imply Kap wasn't going to run. Just not planned runs. When pocket breaks down , or somebody misses a block up front, then the guy can run like n QB I have ever seen in person. It would be hard for me to say Kap or RG used to be the better runner. Now we know for sure Kap is. But as far as planned runs, I just think JH doesn't want to see him taking on DTs and LBs. It just seems a poor percentage play. I write that with near tears in my eye, as I love to see him run. Odds for us winning it all are best if he stays healthy, cuts way back on planned runs, and scampers away when he is forced to. I still think we see Kap run. Just not diagrammed up plays. If he does run planned plays I will be amazed, and disappointed in JH. I don't see that happening tho. JH wants to win more than any of us...and we all want it bad. We got blood in our mouths from two near kills. This time we get our target...the SB.
Gotcha Paso, and do not disagree!
49er way, just the threat of Kap being able to take off around the contain guys throws fear into them. Why? Well at the end of a 17 yrd gain, whose fault was it? Yeah, it was the contain guy and he screwed up. Somehow, I see just the threat of Kap doing that a huge 9er advantage , in that as we have seen when the read option is stopped, the contain guys usually haven't moved more than a foot or two. But, it does give Kap just that much more time to find:

Anquan on the sidelines on 3rd down at the 1st down marker

Vance...surprise, across the middle and he sits down at the 1st down marker( a large wes welker anyone?) for the 1st down catch.

LMJ...playing wide of Kap, gets shovel pass or overhead pass in backfield. Is there anyone who can take him one on one in space, or two on one? Doubtful and watch us use that play as bailout or designed play this yr. Personally, I hope a lot.

AJ...finally comes alive as x,y or Z, depending on situation. Let's just see what a burner with Jerry Rice like hands can do.

Kyle will be back and in fine form, a very good hands guy(just not on PRs tho)

Hunter is back and good receiver.

Patton? Lookout, he could be a worldbeater,... but we don't know yet.

Vernon...an all pro, great blocker, who also can fly. Left one on one, the D loses.

Frank will get some passes again, and is usually pretty dependable.


There is always Celek, rarely if ever covered, and usually open.
OK, I missed one guy, but you get the idea. I am looking for Coach H to have Kap have 8 guys receive passes in many games, the Peyton gameplan. That way D never knows that Crabs is the target..or if not, Vernon. Frankly I think Coach H is going to 8 receivers this yr, as he saw that having just two guys catching the ball was awful easy to defend(SB endzone, anyone?).. If this is JH's gameplan, there are going to be some surprised Ds out there. With his running ability, I have no idea how the heck the Ds are going to take Kap on. C'mon, Sept. let's see what JH has in store.

[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Jul 19, 2013 at 10:14 PM ]
Search Podcast Draft Forum Commentary News Shop Home