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HaRoMan - 2013 Offense

There are three aspects of the offense that I want to see improvement:

  1. RB / TE screen plays
  2. Getting the plays off with at least 3 seconds to go!! Getting to the line earlier so we have enough time to audible.
  3. Deep passing game improvement, especially with Kaep's success at deep accuracy.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
There are three aspects of the offense that I want to see improvement:

  1. RB / TE screen plays
  2. Getting the plays off with at least 3 seconds to go!! Getting to the line earlier so we have enough time to audible.
  3. Deep passing game improvement, especially with Kaep's success at deep accuracy.

Me too! I'd like to see some more WCO plays interjected in as well. Plays that have built in progression reads and outlets (cough, TE, cough); plays where we can get McDonald, Davis, Hunter, Gore and James in single coverage, out in space with the ball in their hands. I'm tired of the all-or-nothing passing plays that if covered = ad lib.
Actually, NC, we have yet to see the backfield pass to LMJ and then what the D does to try and tackle him. I think that play, the plus the play where vance goes 1 yd past first down marker and sits down as the ball sails into his hands, and finally the jumpball play on the sideline to anquan on 3rd down are going to make us a team that cannot be stopped either on 3rd down or Rz. Man, I cannot wait to see all those plays in one game. Unfortunately I don't know if roman sees that potential or not. Last yr it was pretty simple....and easy to defend. Double crbs and don't let him off LOS. If we have 3 backbreaker 3rd down plays, I don't see us getting stopped. Again, my concern? roman. Incidentally, I did not mean to slight Frank in those situations either, esp. if the play is made to look like one of the above.
From Fanatic24: http://www.profootballrosters.com/2013/07/08/2013-fantasy-preview-san-francisco/
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Actually, NC, we have yet to see the backfield pass to LMJ and then what the D does to try and tackle him. I think that play, the plus the play where vance goes 1 yd past first down marker and sits down as the ball sails into his hands, and finally the jumpball play on the sideline to anquan on 3rd down are going to make us a team that cannot be stopped either on 3rd down or Rz. Man, I cannot wait to see all those plays in one game. Unfortunately I don't know if roman sees that potential or not. Last yr it was pretty simple....and easy to defend. Double crbs and don't let him off LOS. If we have 3 backbreaker 3rd down plays, I don't see us getting stopped. Again, my concern? roman. Incidentally, I did not mean to slight Frank in those situations either, esp. if the play is made to look like one of the above.

Yeah, I have noticed that for a while now to...routes run well short of the first down marker and receivers required to get RAC for the first down or TD. It's b/c that is how the play is designed. For the non-targeted receivers (TE's and WR's) to either act as deep decoys and/or block while the underneath guy is targeted to get the ball. You'll see this even more on 3rd downs...usually goes to Crabtree with guys like Manningham already blocking down field when the ball is in the air; Moss, as always, was running a deep post occupying 2 guys, VD as well, etc. It typically left Crabtree 1on1 on the outside or underneath which is usually a mismatch.
I see a ton of 2TE sets. McDonald is Harbaugh's handpicked shiny new toy and I think he will slowly integrate Vance into a big role on the team. I see Kap killing teams over the middle intermediate areas since a LB or two must stay near the LOS to spy on Kap. That means there are less LB(s) in pass coverage and Vance/Vernon can sit in quiet areas for Kap to throw bullets to. There is no way a LB/Safety can make a play on a Kap bullet over the middle - too strong of an arm, too short of a passing distance. If Lockette and/or Jenkins can emerge as true deep threats, then the play action out of the 2TE set will be devastating.

I think the addition of Mangini will add another perspective on how the offense should attack a defense on a week to week basis. As in, what areas to attack, what areas to avoid, when to run a pitch option to the 4th string WR, etc. I don't think he'll play much of a role on Sundays except for half time adjustments.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
K1ingcoopa, just a reminder from last yrs SEA game, where we got the ball first, way back near the 20 , and Kap came out throwing, 3 long passes, and we punted to great field position for them. They then came back and scored, then again, and then again. There is a time and a place for the long ball , but three long to medium passes to begin the game in SEA, in the wet, was a really poor choice. Rather then see us just go vertical all the time, I would much rather see us tailor our game plan to the situation, and in SEA, that was NOT the right idea. Sure Kap can throw the big ball, but he also on occasion has shown us he has the touch pass in his repertoire. Granted roman obviously wanted to come out big, but not from inside the 20 on a wet day against two of the best CBs in the business. As the saying goes , there is a time and a place for everything. Of all the goofy things roman did last yr, besides the 4 screw ups from inside the 10 at end of game....that initial 3 plays in SEA was right there was some other bonehead calls.

Don't get me wrong...I love roman ...in 2/3 of the games. It is the other 1/3 that bothers not just me, but many others.It is also why I would prefer to have our HC, a former QB and former OC /HC at Stanford, call the plays on game day. Let roman run the O during the week. Let the HC call his game on game day.

You don't have to remind me of the Seattle game. I watched it from start to finish and it was just a bad day for us, everything went wrong from the start. Obviously the fact we came out throwing on that dreary night was the wrong decision. But we shouldn't let that deter us from throwing the ball more this year, Kaep is a playmaker, he is the kind of qb we can lean on to take over games; he's that kind of special talent. 30-35 pass attempts is not that many more than what what we have seen the last 2 seasons.
Catering the offense to Kaepernicks strength is going to have us throwing the ball more. He is not a game manager, his arm isn't something we should let sit behind a great running game and pass the ball 20-25 times a game; 10 more passing attempts would allow our offense to be much more explosive and get us a lot of chunk plays through the air. We know our running game is solid and will continue to be. Our offense has the capability to be one of the best in the game with our QB, but that won't happen if we don't allow CK to throw the ball. With so many playmakers it would be a shame to just sit back and run the ball twice as much as we throw it.
Originally posted by thl408:
I see a ton of 2TE sets. McDonald is Harbaugh's handpicked shiny new toy and I think he will slowly integrate Vance into a big role on the team. I see Kap killing teams over the middle intermediate areas since a LB or two must stay near the LOS to spy on Kap. That means there are less LB(s) in pass coverage and Vance/Vernon can sit in quiet areas for Kap to throw bullets to. There is no way a LB/Safety can make a play on a Kap bullet over the middle - too strong of an arm, too short of a passing distance. If Lockette and/or Jenkins can emerge as true deep threats, then the play action out of the 2TE set will be devastating.

I think the addition of Mangini will add another perspective on how the offense should attack a defense on a week to week basis. As in, what areas to attack, what areas to avoid, when to run a pitch option to the 4th string WR, etc. I don't think he'll play much of a role on Sundays except for half time adjustments.

This in particular is a fantastic point and spot on IMHO. Teams, with CK's media exposure of being a dual threat, runner, WILL devote more disciplined edge rushers as well as assign another LB to "spy" him. If the LB spies on CK, then both McDonald and VD on the field out in the passing offense is an instant mismatch. If the LB stays in coverage, CK is going to have 15 yards before anyone even knows he's running...if James, Hunter or Gore flare out there in that void, look out as well!

I'm with you...think Mangini is going to add way more than people realize.
I'm also hoping we utilize more screens this season. We have a lot of speed on our young guys( LMJ, AJ, Lockette) and our athletic lineman and good blocking receivers, get those guys in space and let them make plays. Especially if AJ comes into his own this year, and I hope he does, db's won't take a chance of him flying by them for long passes and will play 5-10 yards off the LOS, screen passes would get us quite a few yards. Of course, this is all dependent on the coaches and all, but with all that speed could only spell good things when in space.
[ Edited by K1ngCoopa24 on Jul 8, 2013 at 2:12 PM ]
Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
I'm also hoping we utilize more screens this season. We have a lot of speed on our young guys( LMJ, AJ, Lockette) and our athletic lineman and good blocking receivers, get those guys in space and let them make plays. Especially if AJ comes into his own this year, and I hope he does, db's won't take a chance of him flying by them for long passes and will play 5-10 yards off the LOS, screen passes would get us quite a few yards. Of course, this is all dependent on the coaches and all, but with all that speed could only spell good things when in space.

There may be a reason why screen passes will not be as effective. I think most agree that the edge rushers will be more disciplined and not rush upfield, rather, they stay in their lanes to contain the pocket, trying to contain Kap's scrambles. For this reason, DL will not pin their ears back and rush the QB, which is what you want when calling a screen pass.
K1ng, don't get me wrong. I would love to see Kap wing it more. Realistically, a Jim Harbaugh team you can count on 50% runs, and 50% passes....which is awfully close to what was. I forget sometime, however, that once we get up on an opponent, we run them into the ground with ground and pound a la frank. Which means that prior to that, we probably were throwing it more than running. I don't know stats on when most of our runs were, but for certain, any game we got up by 2 TDs, there was 5 yds and a cloud of dust from frank. Probably stats would show we threw more than ran during the first 2 1/2 qtrs. and then ran more in last 1/3 of game. Tight games seemed to be pretty much 50/50 run/pass thruout. Someone will have those stats and enlighten me, but I bet I am close.

As for 30-35 passes/game, with all our artillery, (anquan, Vernon, vance, kyle, patton, hunter, frank, celek(if needed), Mario maybe much later, LMJ especially, we look to be able to throw legitimately to 8 , maybe 9 guys every game. LMJ better be one of those targets in the backfield, Anquan better be catching 3rd down jump balls on the sideline at the 1st down marker, and vance better be catching those 3rd down balls sitting down, just past 1st down marker. Also, with bullets, Vernon can do exactly the same thing on 3rd down or he can just put it in gear and fly (but not on 3rd downs). I don't want to beat a dead horse, but my fear? It isn't if kap an 9 guys can play pitch and catch....it is if roman will actually call the dang plays. Again, a plea for our HC to be OC playcaller on game day. Coach H ...he gets it.
Roman sometimes does. I don't know if he gets brain fade, loses concentration or just wigs out, like at last three plays of SB. Our HC should be making those calls.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
It isn't if kap an 9 guys can play pitch and catch....it is if roman will actually call the dang plays.

It's a fair concern...will Roman progress this year (Harbaugh as well)? We've clearly seen the W-W-L record and some absolutely bone-headed calls at crucial times. Can he develop proper game plans that maximize our strengths while exploiting the weakness of the opposition? Now with a full off season himself and additional help from Mangini, will he take that next step?

Concerns:
  • W-W-L pattern
  • Bone-headed calls at the worst times
  • Plays often seemed to come in very late esp. during critical times (even later)
  • When a play worked, we rarely went back to it (e.g. wheel routes, off-tackle runs, etc.)
  • Flow of the game seemed "off" much of the time
  • Very few, if any, outlets for the QB's if the primary receiver was covered (under both Alex and CK)
  • Formations tipped off run or passing plays
  • Outsmarted on several occasions (clearly)
  • Very slow starts (the anti-WCO approach)
  • Not playing to momentum or player strengths (no runs with Gore on the final series of the Superbowl is a salient example of this...the DL was on the ropes, zero blitzing to combat, Gore in a groove, we needed to take time off the clock, etc.)
  • Not playing to player strengths (VD was lost for most of the season when CK took over)
  • Tunnel vision plays (Gore, Gore, Crabtree)
[ Edited by NCommand on Jul 9, 2013 at 8:26 AM ]
NC, I didn't write the "concerns", but brother, they are all on my mind, and have been for some time. For a long time I thot it was just me and roman. I wasn't appreciative of how much he had improved the team. But, I WAS appreciative and he is the best we have had since the end of Seifert's reign. So yes, I appreciate roman who has been a big part of our improvement. But you and I are about as close as can be on concerns. I truly believe you nailed them all...but we always forget something. The mangini hire mystified me the moment I heard it, but after a day or two, I could see how it could make sense. If, if, mangini ends up helping tweak the O calling and game plans, then it was a sensational hire. Again, If , if, he is used as some of us figure...and that, unfortunately , is probably going to be in roman's hands. Just another reason I would much prefer Coach H to make the game calls....but that is another story....
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Jul 9, 2013 at 11:17 AM ]
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
NC, I didn't write the "concerns", but brother, they are all on my mind, and have been for some time. For a long time I thot it was just me and roman. I wasn't appreciative of how much he had improved the team. But, I WAS appreciative and he is the best we have had since the end of Seifert's reign. So yes, I appreciate roman who has been a big part of our improvement. But you and I are about as close as can be on concerns. I truly believe you nailed them all...but we always forget something. The mangini hire mystified me the moment I heard it, but after a day or two, I could see how it could make sense. If, if, mangini ends up helping tweak the O calling and game plans, then it was a sensational hire. Again, If , if, he is used as some of us figure...and that, unfortunately , is probably going to be in roman's hands. Just another reason I would much prefer Coach H to make the game calls....but that is another story....

you guys have said nothing wrong when listing your concerns... I feel the same way,, you guys express it better than me and without emotion i can not understand why JH did not whack roman on the head with the clipboard on many occasions and call the plays, you got second and goal from the five,,,, ahh forget it
Nah, cc, you are plenty eloquent, and more importantly, know your football. You can also see the weakest link in a mighty strong chain. I don't know how many there are that have rude feelings towards roman, but I do hope the guy gets his schidt together this yr...or better yet, just calls O plays during the week and JH calls the O on gameday. Now that would satisfy me and hopefully take the coaching screw-ups out of the equation. One could easily make a case for two SB loses( ok one was NFCC) on the coaches. Nonetheless, we still dam near won both...and that part is really amazing. I don't see us not winning it all this yr. It's our time, JH should now know roman's weaknesses, hopefully mangini helps...but I just can't see us not winning it all this yr.
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