Who's better? Willis or Aldon

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
If nate clements and joe nedney won the award in the past then the award doesn't mean that much. Sorry.

Not knocking Aldon at all just saying.

You are kidding, right?

Was a kicker more crucial to the team's success than B Young? No I didn't think so.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
So AP isn't more valuable just because he is a runningback? How about Revis Island pre-injury? Everyone was saying he was the best defensive player in the league.

Sorry to break it to you but football is a team sport. You can't say one position is more valuable than another other than quarterback. When Ronnie Lott played he was the best defensive player in the league at safety. Lewis Singletary and butkus were considered the best as ILB, Taylor and Brooks at OLB, Deion Green and champ at corner, Mean Joe Sapp White and D Jones on the D Line.

My point being that Taylor and Brooks weren't more important to their defenses than any of the other players mentioned above. You can think whatever you want but you have no proof.

No, AP is not more valuable than an elite pass rusher. He's more of a fan favourite, but he's not even as valuable to the Vikings as Matt Kalil is. Revis pre-injury? He was close to an all-pro pass rusher in terms of value. Revis was more valuable than Willis a few years ago, but after the ACL tear that changed. An all-pro' CB > an all-pro' ILB, but Willis > Revis now.

The only thing that comes close to an all-pro' pass-rusher is an all-pro' DT. There's a reason Jadeveon Clowney looks like the most valuable non-QB player the draft has seen (outside of the obscenely talented 2011 draft) in years. Julius Peppers was more valuable than Ray Lewis or Urlacher back in the day. Peppers didn't have the teams those other 2 did (and thus didn't get half the hype), but he was a one-man wrecking crew.

Obviously every team wants an elite pass rusher, but I think if you check, you'll find out that most recent Super Bowl winners have gotten there without what you might think of as an elite pass rusher. The last Giants championship team, while having a great rush, didn't have one elite rusher and their defense wasn't top 5. The only team I can think of lately was the 2008 Steelers, who had the #1 defense that year. In fact, the last time a defensive player was named MVP of a Super Bowl was when Ray Lewis was named in 2000, and he played the same position as Willis.

As DrinkAMiller and others have pointed out, it's a team game. Pass rushers don't get to rush the passer unless the rest of the defense shuts down the run and they don't do that without good ILB's. Willis and Bowman account for almost 200 tackles between them and that goes a long way towards forcing teams to pass and giving Aldon Smith the opportunity to make 19.5 sacks. I just don't think it's as simple as "the elite pass rusher is the most important player, etc."

Originally posted by VPofCarnage:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
So AP isn't more valuable just because he is a runningback? How about Revis Island pre-injury? Everyone was saying he was the best defensive player in the league.

Sorry to break it to you but football is a team sport. You can't say one position is more valuable than another other than quarterback. When Ronnie Lott played he was the best defensive player in the league at safety. Lewis Singletary and butkus were considered the best as ILB, Taylor and Brooks at OLB, Deion Green and champ at corner, Mean Joe Sapp White and D Jones on the D Line.

My point being that Taylor and Brooks weren't more important to their defenses than any of the other players mentioned above. You can think whatever you want but you have no proof.

No, AP is not more valuable than an elite pass rusher. He's more of a fan favourite, but he's not even as valuable to the Vikings as Matt Kalil is. Revis pre-injury? He was close to an all-pro pass rusher in terms of value. Revis was more valuable than Willis a few years ago, but after the ACL tear that changed. An all-pro' CB > an all-pro' ILB, but Willis > Revis now.

The only thing that comes close to an all-pro' pass-rusher is an all-pro' DT. There's a reason Jadeveon Clowney looks like the most valuable non-QB player the draft has seen (outside of the obscenely talented 2011 draft) in years. Julius Peppers was more valuable than Ray Lewis or Urlacher back in the day. Peppers didn't have the teams those other 2 did (and thus didn't get half the hype), but he was a one-man wrecking crew.

Really?

Another ridiculous comment.

Clowney is the top prospect because he is the most freakish athlete in the draft. Nobody is close, but it isn't just because he is a passrusher.

Peppers played on pretty much the same bears d that urlacher did so I don't know what your talking about...

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Not at all. A kicker should never be a MVP on a team. Nate Clements was probably the most overpaid 49er ever.

There have been 12 MVP award winners. You do not agree with two of the picks.

One was a kicker and in your opinion a kicker should never be a MVP on a team.
The other was Nate Clements who was, in your opinion, the most overpaid 49er ever.

Because you disagreed with two of the picks, you are now claiming that the award does not mean very much.

So you think that it does not mean much that Patrick Willis, Frank Gore, and Justin Smith have won the award twice.

Not sure you are being rational or logical, but that is not required.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Was a kicker more crucial to the team's success than B Young? No I didn't think so.

Well the team did thats why they voted for him so your point is null and void.

Originally posted by GNielsen:
Obviously every team wants an elite pass rusher, but I think if you check, you'll find out that most recent Super Bowl winners have gotten there without what you might think of as an elite pass rusher. The last Giants championship team, while having a great rush, didn't have one elite rusher and their defense wasn't top 5. The only team I can think of lately was the 2008 Steelers, who had the #1 defense that year. In fact, the last time a defensive player was named MVP of a Super Bowl was when Ray Lewis was named in 2000, and he played the same position as Willis.

As DrinkAMiller and others have pointed out, it's a team game. Pass rushers don't get to rush the passer unless the rest of the defense shuts down the run and they don't do that without good ILB's. Willis and Bowman account for almost 200 tackles between them and that goes a long way towards forcing teams to pass and giving Aldon Smith the opportunity to make 19.5 sacks. I just don't think it's as simple as "the elite pass rusher is the most important player, etc."

Another excellent point Nielsen. Teams throw against the 49ers far more than they would against an average NFL team because they can't run on us. More pass plays leads to more sacks. It's really that simple.

Originally posted by buck:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Not at all. A kicker should never be a MVP on a team. Nate Clements was probably the most overpaid 49er ever.

There have been 12 MVP award winners. You do not agree with two of the picks.

One was a kicker and in your opinion a kicker should never be a MVP on a team.
The other was Nate Clements who was, in your opinion, the most overpaid 49er ever.

Because you disagreed with two of the picks, you are now claiming that the award does not mean very much.

So you think that it does not mean much that Patrick Willis, Frank Gore, and Justin Smith have won the award twice.

Not sure you are being rational or logical, but that is not required.

No I was just saying that winning the award isn't as important as you make it out to be. Just because he was voted MVP doesn't mean his value is the greatest on the team.

So again I ask was Joe Nedney the most valuable player on that 49er team?

Originally posted by LoneWolf:

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Was a kicker more crucial to the team's success than B Young? No I didn't think so.

Well the team did thats why they voted for him so your point is null and void.

No it isn't. Stop being ridiculous.

Put me down w/Mayo and Buck, plus many others. I love 'em both, 2 of the most exciting players of the 49ers ever. True they play different positions, but football wise, I love both equally. Here's the big deal tho...both guys are on the same D. It's been a while since any NFL team had a pair equal to these two guys. What is even more amazing is , altho not on the list, Bowman could just as well be there. Summary: The 49ers have been incredibly blessed with 3 of the truly best defenders in the NFL, and ALL are playing on the same team. It is just hard to think back where we, or anyone else, had such an abundance of talent.

You all have noticed the deafening silence coming from 49ers HQ, and the ducking of questions about this team by Coach Harbaugh. Not so in Dallas, where big jer has been touting this cowboys team as the best in ages, and a SB is now within reach. To which one must respond, "that sure must be one helluva reach".

Having two quality players in the top 10, recognized on the same D, is spooky good. Having another, Navorro, that we all know to be equally good is just talent riches on top of talent riches. As for who is best, Aldon or p-52...does any 49er fan out there really care? Further, if you look at front 7s, does anybody really have a front 7 better than ours? I don't think so. How many Justin Smiths are there out there? Yeah, not many. Best of all, our D backfield took its lumps last yr, and one of our best tacklers, Dashon, is gone. But he has been replaced with a guy who altho he might not tackle as hard, he sure does defend passes better. True he hasn't played one play in NFL, but his coverage skills far exceed Goldson's. With drafting or adding 97(or so it seems) DBs thru draft and FA, somehow, someway, I believe we are going to see some fierce competition in D backs, and out of it we are going to see a D backfield way better than last yrs. Some may not agree, but it appears that Trent/JH have brought in enough talent to markedly improve our D backfield, and it seems reasonable that we end up much improved from last yr.

Picking two exceptional men and football players as top 10ers is fantastic. Arguing over who is better is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Frankly, neither argument is worth a hill of beans.

They have a different skill set.

Originally posted by GNielsen:
Obviously every team wants an elite pass rusher, but I think if you check, you'll find out that most recent Super Bowl winners have gotten there without what you might think of as an elite pass rusher. The last Giants championship team, while having a great rush, didn't have one elite rusher and their defense wasn't top 5. The only team I can think of lately was the 2008 Steelers, who had the #1 defense that year. In fact, the last time a defensive player was named MVP of a Super Bowl was when Ray Lewis was named in 2000, and he played the same position as Willis.

As DrinkAMiller and others have pointed out, it's a team game. Pass rushers don't get to rush the passer unless the rest of the defense shuts down the run and they don't do that without good ILB's. Willis and Bowman account for almost 200 tackles between them and that goes a long way towards forcing teams to pass and giving Aldon Smith the opportunity to make 19.5 sacks. I just don't think it's as simple as "the elite pass rusher is the most important player, etc."

The last NYG championship team had Jason Pierre Paul who had 16.5 sacks and named all-pro. HE is elite. NYG played like a top 3 defense in the playoffs when it counted most.

Also, Tuck and Osi were getting healthy from past injuries and they are definitely elite. Ask Tom Brady. I still wish to this day that GB had beaten NYG in Lambeau.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Really?

Another ridiculous comment.

Clowney is the top prospect because he is the most freakish athlete in the draft. Nobody is close, but it isn't just because he is a passrusher.

Peppers played on pretty much the same bears d that urlacher did so I don't know what your talking about...

Patrick Peterson was a ridiculous athlete, but the NFL didn't think he was as valuable as Marcell Dareus. Time will tell if they were wrong, but it says something when the best CB prospect in years gets drafted after a DT like Dareus & after a WR prospect like AJ Green. Some positions are just more valuable than others.

And Julius Peppers also played for the Panthers. He was by far more valuable than Urlachers was when both of them were in their respective primes. And he was more valuable to the Bears too. A dominant D-lineman is more valuable than a dominant 4-3 LB or any ILB. They just have a bigger effect on every play. A LB's play is dependent on the guys in from of him. It's the same reason an all-pro' LB is more valuable than an all-pro' safety. A safety might go 3 or 4 plays in a row and have no effect on the plays. That never happens with the guys up front.

You've to ignore sports center, Madden covers, commercials, jersey sales. etc. All-pro' QBs > D-linemen ,OLTs, WRs & CBs > ILBs. And ILBs > safeties. That's just how it works.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
No it isn't. Stop being ridiculous.

Yes it is, the MVP/Bill Walsh Award winner is voted by the players team mates, which means the men actually playing the game side by side with him thought Nedney was more crucial to the teams success then anyone else. Its not some stupid fan popularity contest, its not some bs stat award and its not an award by a network, its an award from the team voted by the team.

Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
They have a different skill set.

This is the crucial difference between Pat and Aldon right here! Aldons skill set was simply more displayed this year then Pats.