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Who's better? Willis or Aldon

Who's better? Willis or Aldon

lol
Bowman
alex smith
potato, hands down.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Damn Aldon is a beast! 51 tackles a game? lol so he gets 816 tackles a year, 268 sacks a year and 40 FF?

Funny because the stats you provided do not prove that aldon is good at coverage or against the run. 1 interception in 2 years means nothing and 51 tackles a year doesn't mean he is a great run stuffer. 5 passes defended in 2 years is also not impressive when you consider JJ Watt a defensive end who isn't asked to drop back in coverage had more than triple the passes defended in 1 year than aldon did in 2. Now I do think he has improved tremendously at both compared to his rookie year, but if your going to try to prove him wrong than make sure your stats apply to your argument. I don't think PFF teaches you that..

But seriously the fact that he averages a sack a game is awesome. But to say that he is better than Willis is a stretch. Just because Grant stepped in and played phenomenal when Willis went down doesn't mean Willis is more expendable than Aldon or that he isn't as great of a player. Willis is the leader of the defense and does so many things that don't show up on the stat sheet.

First, I never compared Aldon Smith to Patrick Willis. I compared Smith to Charles Haley.

Comparing Willis to Aldon Smith does not make as much sense as comparing him to Haley. In four of his six years, with the 49ers Haley played OLB.

The stats seem to indicate that he was as good as Charles Haley in run defense and pass coverage.

Smith clearly compares well to Haley in all aspects of the game.

Second, I differed with the claim that Aldon was crap on run defense and in pass coverage.

I never said that he could not or should not improve.

I still do not think he is crap in either run defense or pass coverage. I think the stats do not support the original claim.


.

Was does PFF have to do with my post? I did not cite them.


The last comment about willis compared to aldon was a response to the topic and not to you.

What I said was the stats you provided do not prove that he IS good at either which was your intention, so I don't know why they were brought up.
Being that NFL networks list is voted by there peers who took the biggest step foward this year in being a threat to opposing offenses? Now you have your answer why Aldon was voted higher then Pat.
Originally posted by buck:
First, I never compared Aldon Smith to Patrick Willis. I compared Smith to Charles Haley.

Comparing Willis to Aldon Smith does not make as much sense as comparing him to Haley. In four of his six years, with the 49ers Haley played OLB.

The stats seem to indicate that he was as good as Charles Haley in run defense and pass coverage.

Smith clearly compares well to Haley in all aspects of the game.

Second, I differed with the claim that Aldon was crap on run defense and in pass coverage.

I never said that he could not or should not improve.

I still do not think he is crap in either run defense or pass coverage. I think the stats do not support the original claim.


.

Was does PFF have to do with my post? I did not cite them.

Did we ever find out if sacks are counted in tackles, for either PFF or official NFL stats?

Willis is going into HoF. Aldon needs 3,4 more quality seasons to get there. Saying Aldon is crap on run d and coverage d is not right. he's 270 so I think he will be at a disadvantage versus other smaller olb's (240-ish) in coverage. But that doesn't mean he's bad.

Against the run, I just can't remember an impact from him vs run over the last season when I was watching on the tube. That's all I'll say. His stats are good there, as long as tackles don't include sacks.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Damn Aldon is a beast! 51 tackles a game? lol so he gets 816 tackles a year, 268 sacks a year and 40 FF?

Funny because the stats you provided do not prove that aldon is good at coverage or against the run. 1 interception in 2 years means nothing and 51 tackles a year doesn't mean he is a great run stuffer. 5 passes defended in 2 years is also not impressive when you consider JJ Watt a defensive end who isn't asked to drop back in coverage had more than triple the passes defended in 1 year than aldon did in 2. Now I do think he has improved tremendously at both compared to his rookie year, but if your going to try to prove him wrong than make sure your stats apply to your argument. I don't think PFF teaches you that..

But seriously the fact that he averages a sack a game is awesome. But to say that he is better than Willis is a stretch. Just because Grant stepped in and played phenomenal when Willis went down doesn't mean Willis is more expendable than Aldon or that he isn't as great of a player. Willis is the leader of the defense and does so many things that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Look Willis is a hell of a player. Likely a HOF player, but the fact of the matter is he simply is more expendable than Aldon. The values are not the same for the positions, and both are among the top of their positions. A dominate pass rushing OLB the caliber of Aldon Smith is simply more valuable than any ILB period. As far as whos the better player, its not really a fair comparisson, but when you start to talk about value it is easy to pick a side.

And LOL at comparing Watt's pass defenses to Aldons. Aldon also switched positions when coing into the NFL and everyone knew he would be ra in those areas, but IMO he has progressed nicely as an OLB, but lets be real here, the dude has more sacks in his first two seasons than anyone thats ever played in the NFL. I know people here like to nitpick and its the offseason and thats fine, i do it myself, but his pass rushing ability alone is enough to justify him as the more valuable player.

BTW that is a ridiculous statement. Does that mean Von Miller is more valuable than willis or bowman? How about wake or Matthews?

THAT is laughable.
  • buck
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Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
The last comment about willis compared to aldon was a response to the topic and not to you.

What I said was the stats you provided do not prove that he IS good at either which was your intention, so I don't know why they were brought up.

Your understanding of my intention is flawed.

A poster claimed that Aldon Smith was crap in run defense and in pass coverage. I do not think that Aldon Smith is crap in either, so I disputed that claim.

My intention was to show that Aldon is not crap in either which is clearly not the same as arguing that Aldon Smith is good in run defense or pass coverage.

I think the stats and the comparison do indicate that Aldon Smith is not crap in either run defense or in pass coverage.

If you agree that Aldon Smith is crap in both areas of his game, we disagree.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Damn Aldon is a beast! 51 tackles a game? lol so he gets 816 tackles a year, 268 sacks a year and 40 FF?

Funny because the stats you provided do not prove that aldon is good at coverage or against the run. 1 interception in 2 years means nothing and 51 tackles a year doesn't mean he is a great run stuffer. 5 passes defended in 2 years is also not impressive when you consider JJ Watt a defensive end who isn't asked to drop back in coverage had more than triple the passes defended in 1 year than aldon did in 2. Now I do think he has improved tremendously at both compared to his rookie year, but if your going to try to prove him wrong than make sure your stats apply to your argument. I don't think PFF teaches you that..

But seriously the fact that he averages a sack a game is awesome. But to say that he is better than Willis is a stretch. Just because Grant stepped in and played phenomenal when Willis went down doesn't mean Willis is more expendable than Aldon or that he isn't as great of a player. Willis is the leader of the defense and does so many things that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Look Willis is a hell of a player. Likely a HOF player, but the fact of the matter is he simply is more expendable than Aldon. The values are not the same for the positions, and both are among the top of their positions. A dominate pass rushing OLB the caliber of Aldon Smith is simply more valuable than any ILB period. As far as whos the better player, its not really a fair comparisson, but when you start to talk about value it is easy to pick a side.

And LOL at comparing Watt's pass defenses to Aldons. Aldon also switched positions when coing into the NFL and everyone knew he would be ra in those areas, but IMO he has progressed nicely as an OLB, but lets be real here, the dude has more sacks in his first two seasons than anyone thats ever played in the NFL. I know people here like to nitpick and its the offseason and thats fine, i do it myself, but his pass rushing ability alone is enough to justify him as the more valuable player.

BTW that is a ridiculous statement. Does that mean Von Miller is more valuable than willis or bowman? How about wake or Matthews?

THAT is laughable.

You obviously don't understand the value of positions on an NFL defense. To answer your question bluntly, yes von miller would be more valuable to any defense than Willis. He had 18.5 sacks last season and 6 FF.

Every year very good servicable ILB's come out of the draft and play very well for their teams. On the same level of Willis or Boman? No, of course not, but still very servicable.

But how many Von Millers, or Aldon smiths are there? Just beause they both came out of the same draft doesnt mean they are easy to find. In fact pass rush specialist OLB's are very hard to find. Why do you think we have been looking for one for over a decade?

The fact is there are several positions on an NFL defense that are more valuable than ILB. OLB is one of them. Average pay grades across the NFL back this up.

Like i have said numerous times, Willis is a stud and a likely HOF player, one of my favorite 49ers all time, but no, he is not as valuable as Aldon Smith. In fact we have two ILB's that are pretty much interchangeable. Now try to replace Aldon Smith.
Well if we are going to use the argument that Willis is less important because good ILBs are easier to come by than DEs then the entire top 10 should be QBs because that is harder to come by than anything really. Willis will go down as all time great and has every year since he came into the league. Aldon might too but this is only year two and we have no idea how his career will shake out. My point is Willis is established long term as elite and while Aldon is established in the short term we still have only seen him one and a half seasons and Willis has been killing it for 6 (right?) and most of that time on horribly coached teams.

The comparison between Bowman and Willis is much more valid in my opinion. Plus none of us can deny that a lot of Aldon's sacks where thanks to Justin getting swallowed up by o lines by two, and sometimes three guys. I am not knocking Aldon in any way but don't want to short change Pat's talents in comparison.
That list was the worst list of all time and they know nothing. Willis is the most valuable MLB in the game and a key component to building a team and dynasty for years to come. An edge rusher you can almost buy or get in FA now. You dont find many P Willis everyday.
  • LVJay
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craig dahl
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
The last comment about willis compared to aldon was a response to the topic and not to you.

What I said was the stats you provided do not prove that he IS good at either which was your intention, so I don't know why they were brought up.

Your understanding of my intention is flawed.

A poster claimed that Aldon Smith was crap in run defense and in pass coverage. I do not think that Aldon Smith is crap in either, so I disputed that claim.

My intention was to show that Aldon is not crap in either which is clearly not the same as arguing that Aldon Smith is good in run defense or pass coverage.

I think the stats and the comparison do indicate that Aldon Smith is not crap in either run defense or in pass coverage.

If you agree that Aldon Smith is crap in both areas of his game, we disagree.


Ok here is the thing buck. No NFL football player is crap at their position or they wouldn't play football. You either excel at certain aspects of the game or you don't. Brooks excels against the run IMO and to you he excels at just about everything. With aldon he excels at getting after the qb and is constantly improving at every aspect of the game. Does the Poster really think aldon is crap at those 2 things? I highly doubt it. I think he is just saying he has more room to improve in that aspect of his game compared to the league average.
[ Edited by JimDrinkAMiller on Jun 28, 2013 at 10:21 PM ]
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Damn Aldon is a beast! 51 tackles a game? lol so he gets 816 tackles a year, 268 sacks a year and 40 FF?

Funny because the stats you provided do not prove that aldon is good at coverage or against the run. 1 interception in 2 years means nothing and 51 tackles a year doesn't mean he is a great run stuffer. 5 passes defended in 2 years is also not impressive when you consider JJ Watt a defensive end who isn't asked to drop back in coverage had more than triple the passes defended in 1 year than aldon did in 2. Now I do think he has improved tremendously at both compared to his rookie year, but if your going to try to prove him wrong than make sure your stats apply to your argument. I don't think PFF teaches you that..

But seriously the fact that he averages a sack a game is awesome. But to say that he is better than Willis is a stretch. Just because Grant stepped in and played phenomenal when Willis went down doesn't mean Willis is more expendable than Aldon or that he isn't as great of a player. Willis is the leader of the defense and does so many things that don't show up on the stat sheet.

Look Willis is a hell of a player. Likely a HOF player, but the fact of the matter is he simply is more expendable than Aldon. The values are not the same for the positions, and both are among the top of their positions. A dominate pass rushing OLB the caliber of Aldon Smith is simply more valuable than any ILB period. As far as whos the better player, its not really a fair comparisson, but when you start to talk about value it is easy to pick a side.

And LOL at comparing Watt's pass defenses to Aldons. Aldon also switched positions when coing into the NFL and everyone knew he would be ra in those areas, but IMO he has progressed nicely as an OLB, but lets be real here, the dude has more sacks in his first two seasons than anyone thats ever played in the NFL. I know people here like to nitpick and its the offseason and thats fine, i do it myself, but his pass rushing ability alone is enough to justify him as the more valuable player.

BTW that is a ridiculous statement. Does that mean Von Miller is more valuable than willis or bowman? How about wake or Matthews?

THAT is laughable.

You obviously don't understand the value of positions on an NFL defense. To answer your question bluntly, yes von miller would be more valuable to any defense than Willis. He had 18.5 sacks last season and 6 FF.

Every year very good servicable ILB's come out of the draft and play very well for their teams. On the same level of Willis or Boman? No, of course not, but still very servicable.

But how many Von Millers, or Aldon smiths are there? Just beause they both came out of the same draft doesnt mean they are easy to find. In fact pass rush specialist OLB's are very hard to find. Why do you think we have been looking for one for over a decade?

The fact is there are several positions on an NFL defense that are more valuable than ILB. OLB is one of them. Average pay grades across the NFL back this up.

Like i have said numerous times, Willis is a stud and a likely HOF player, one of my favorite 49ers all time, but no, he is not as valuable as Aldon Smith. In fact we have two ILB's that are pretty much interchangeable. Now try to replace Aldon Smith.


Ok Von Miller might be the exception of the 3 I mentioned because he is the most complete IMO but I still would rather have P willy on my team throughout his career. He is stupid fast and has the most heart out of any LB in the game IMO. He is a true leader. He has only had 1 season with less than 120 combined tackles and that was the year he was injured, he just has a nose for the football. He gets sacks and gets a good amount of turnovers too. Would you rather have wake or Matthews than Willis or Bowman? Just because their pass rush ability alone was more valuable than everything Willis and Bowman do for our team.. Sounds kind of ridiculous to me..

Aldon smith is great don't get me wrong but Willis does more for your defense. Aldon has some growing to do and once he is more fluent in dropping back in coverage and continues improving his run-stuffing abilities than I would be willing to say he is more important than P Willy and that would only be because we have Bowman as well. Was Ray Lewis in his prime more important than suggs? I think so because he was a leader too. Sure suggs won a defensive player of the year with ridiculous numbers (a lot to due with that Thursday night game against the 49ers) but Ray was the centerpiece of one of the toughest defenses in NFL history which suggs was not apart of. Suggs also didn't lead his team to a superbowl like Ray did. Though ray didn't play well against us and def lost a step, he led his team to the superbowl and they wouldn't have done it without him.

For every NFL defense that had a great OLB like derrick brooks or Lawrence Taylor I can give you 1 with a great ILB like singeltary or Lewis. The difference being Patrick Willis is a lot closer to Lewis and Singletary right now than Aldon is to Taylor or Brooks. Brooks was phenomenal in coverage and tore up Oakland by himself in that superbowl.

I think both our players have the potential to be greater than the 4 mentioned above.

Sorry I had to mention the Ravens.