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49ers vs NFC West

Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by daragon:
Oooo. I think I'm starting to pull away in this debate. Lol. You don't have stats on RW for the next 5 to 10 years. So you can't make the statement of his greatness either. But we sure can make a statement about Brees, because we have his stats. All I'm saying is, as of now, RW is not as good as Drew Brees. You see potential, but so do we in Colin. You think your guy will overcome being a little shorty, and we think Colin can grow with his athleticism. You want to argue odds against proven greatness, portential against record setters. I'm sure Raider fans thought the same thing with their syrup drinker. Simply put, RW is short, abnormally so for a QB. He is going to have to do a lot to stand out going forward. We'll see, but based off of everything I've seen in the NFL as I have grown up, I don't expect a Superman season for RW.

You win my man, can't argue with this kind of logic.. you've clearly demonstrated your point to perfection and have shown me the errors in my argument, and i stand before you a shell of a man in bitter defeat.. congrats..

So let me ask you a question, what is it exactly that Brees does better? is it arm strength, footwork, vision, leadership, etc.. or is it wining SB's and breaking records? Just curious as to what makes Brees more talented..


What? i think it's a legit question.. because based on his argument, it would be fair to say Felix Hernandez is not as talented as Roger Clemens, because Clemens clearly has better numbers wins wise and strike outs to name a few, and has won a championship, Felix has not, so clearly Clemens is the more talented pitcher, regardless of the fact the Hernandez is still early in his career and Clemens is retired..

The only thing that Brees has over almost any QB in the league is his ability to quickly get threw 4 reads. But he's shown an ability to maintain elite QB play for years:

Since going to NO:
2006: 4418yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs
2007: 4423 yds 28 TDs, 18 INTs
2008: 5069 yds 34 TDs, 17 INTs
2009: 4388 yds 34 TDs, 11 INTs
2010: 4620 yds 33 TDs, 22 INTs
2011: 5476 yds 46 TDs, 14 INTs
2012: 5177 yds 43 TDs, 19 INTs

That... is consistency. He may force too many turnovers, but he's consistently putting up 4500+ yds, 30+ TD years.

If RW can emulate that level of consistency, then the comparison is a good one. But until can prove to have elite consistency, he can't be compared to one of the greats.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
The only thing that Brees has over almost any QB in the league is his ability to quickly get threw 4 reads. But he's shown an ability to maintain elite QB play for years:

Since going to NO:
2006: 4418yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs
2007: 4423 yds 28 TDs, 18 INTs
2008: 5069 yds 34 TDs, 17 INTs
2009: 4388 yds 34 TDs, 11 INTs
2010: 4620 yds 33 TDs, 22 INTs
2011: 5476 yds 46 TDs, 14 INTs
2012: 5177 yds 43 TDs, 19 INTs

That... is consistency. He may force too many turnovers, but he's consistently putting up 4500+ yds, 30+ TD years.

If RW can emulate that level of consistency, then the comparison is a good one. But until can prove to have elite consistency, he can't be compared to one of the greats.
I agree whole heartedly.. You cannot compare their accomplishments at this point, Brees wins hands down.

but the argument wasn't about accomplishments, it was about pure talent? My argument was , you don't know if RW is as talented as Brees because Brees has a much bigger body of work.. The only true fair comparison you can make at this point is both of their first full seasons as a starter, and based on the numbers you posted it looks fairly even, other than the INT's but Brees has him in total yrds, but they were in two totally different schemes.

But again i'm talking pure talent. Arm strength, accuracy, footwork, speed, elusivness, getting through your reads, recognizing defenses, leadership, making players around you better. SB vicories and Records, Wins and losses are the byproduct of these talents.

To compare the two with one having a year under his belt and the other having several is not fair, not accurate.
[ Edited by hawker84 on Aug 12, 2013 at 1:02 PM ]
Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
The only thing that Brees has over almost any QB in the league is his ability to quickly get threw 4 reads. But he's shown an ability to maintain elite QB play for years:

Since going to NO:
2006: 4418yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs
2007: 4423 yds 28 TDs, 18 INTs
2008: 5069 yds 34 TDs, 17 INTs
2009: 4388 yds 34 TDs, 11 INTs
2010: 4620 yds 33 TDs, 22 INTs
2011: 5476 yds 46 TDs, 14 INTs
2012: 5177 yds 43 TDs, 19 INTs

That... is consistency. He may force too many turnovers, but he's consistently putting up 4500+ yds, 30+ TD years.

If RW can emulate that level of consistency, then the comparison is a good one. But until can prove to have elite consistency, he can't be compared to one of the greats.
I agree whole heartedly.. You cannot compare their accomplishments at this point, Brees wins hands down.

but the argument wasn't about accomplishments, it was about pure talent? My argument was , you don't know if RW is as talented as Brees because Brees has a much bigger body of work.. The only true fair comparison you can make at this point is both of their first full seasons as a starter, and i don't know those numbers.

But again i'm talking pure talent. Arm strength, accuracy, footwork, speed, elusivness, getting through your reads, recognizing defenses, leadership, making players around you better. SB vicories and Records, Wins and losses are the byproduct of these talents.

To compare the two with one having a year under his belt and the other having several is not fair, not accurate.

First Full Starter Season
2002: SD

60.8% Comp. 3284 yds 17 TDs 16 INTs

Best SD Season
2004: SD


65.5% Comp. 3159 yds 27 TDs 7 INTs

Those numbers look very similar to RW... but San Diego wouldn't have selected Eli Manning (then trade for Philip Rivers) if they were completely satisfied with Brees.
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.
[ Edited by hawker84 on Aug 12, 2013 at 1:12 PM ]
Originally posted by hawker84:
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.

I actually was referring to Brees' best year in SD... in 2004. Still, I would say what RW accomplished in one year was more than Brees accomplished in his time in SD... SD still shipped him off in favor of Philip Rivers.
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by hawker84:
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.

I actually was referring to Brees' best year in SD... in 2004. Still, I would say what RW accomplished in one year was more than Brees accomplished in his time in SD... SD still shipped him off in favor of Philip Rivers.

Due to the shoulder injury right?
Originally posted by hawker84:
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.
Again, I think the only way you could ever really compare 1 qb to another is if they had equal pass attempts and each qbs teams run games were similar. To crown RW as a great qb without factoring in that he had less attempts than any other starting qb and the best run-game at his disposal is premature at best. You could make a similar argument about Kap only having 10 starts.
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by hawker84:
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.

I actually was referring to Brees' best year in SD... in 2004. Still, I would say what RW accomplished in one year was more than Brees accomplished in his time in SD... SD still shipped him off in favor of Philip Rivers.

Due to the shoulder injury right?

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. But I think SD was thinking QB regardless...

If only they had selected Larry Fitz...

Brees, LT, Larry Fitz, Vincent Jackson, Anthony Gates
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
Originally posted by hawker84:
Actually Brees first full season as a starter was in 2002 with SD

320 completions in 520 attempts for 3,284

60.8% completion percentage

17 td's

16 INT's

So clearly RW had the better year as a first year starter.

Sorry we posted this at the same time. and not similar, Brees had 6 more INT's and 9 less TD's, and a lower completion percentage by 4%.

So does this mean RW is more talented, of course not, but an argument can be made, he's as talented up to this point.

I actually was referring to Brees' best year in SD... in 2004. Still, I would say what RW accomplished in one year was more than Brees accomplished in his time in SD... SD still shipped him off in favor of Philip Rivers.

Due to the shoulder injury right?

Now that you mention it, I think you're right. But I think SD was thinking QB regardless...

If only they had selected Larry Fitz...

Brees, LT, Larry Fitz, Vincent Jackson, Anthony Gates

That would be a scary offense!!! Wow...
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
The only thing that Brees has over almost any QB in the league is his ability to quickly get threw 4 reads. But he's shown an ability to maintain elite QB play for years:

Since going to NO:
2006: 4418yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs
2007: 4423 yds 28 TDs, 18 INTs
2008: 5069 yds 34 TDs, 17 INTs
2009: 4388 yds 34 TDs, 11 INTs
2010: 4620 yds 33 TDs, 22 INTs
2011: 5476 yds 46 TDs, 14 INTs
2012: 5177 yds 43 TDs, 19 INTs

That... is consistency. He may force too many turnovers, but he's consistently putting up 4500+ yds, 30+ TD years.

If RW can emulate that level of consistency, then the comparison is a good one. But until can prove to have elite consistency, he can't be compared to one of the greats.

2.18 TDs to INTs

Not good.
Originally posted by xtm059:
2.18 TDs to INTs

Not good.



ummm yes it is... Especially with the volume passing attack of the Saints. Some INTs are essentially punts anyways.
Brees and Sean Payton together are a machine. Kap and Wilson walked into teams with a dominant running game and a stifling defense. Brees carries NO in a passing offense. No comparison. SF and SEA have better teams but Brees has carried that hurricane Katrina town to a super bowl and has been consistently elite. Brees had no running game carry him. He carried the Saints
Originally posted by ModestoNiner33:
Again, I think the only way you could ever really compare 1 qb to another is if they had equal pass attempts and each qbs teams run games were similar. To crown RW as a great qb without factoring in that he had less attempts than any other starting qb and the best run-game at his disposal is premature at best. You could make a similar argument about Kap only having 10 starts.
True, i agree with this 100%.. you can add many factors into each of their production stats in their first full season as a starter..
Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by seahawk12thman:
This will be a very telling year. Both Wilson and Kaep are sophomores and both are unknowns. Bradford must emerge this year. Wilson has been compared to Tarkenton and seems to possess great leadership. His scrambling ability allows him to buy so much more time that the combination of Lynch's toughness and Wilson's scrambling tires out defenses to the point you see them with hands on their hips in the second half. He has a strong arm and can throw on the run and for what little he lacks in speed he makes up for it in elusiveness. The only question is his height and how teams will scheme for him and his lack of vision. The only problem with this theory is that while Wilson may have a hard time seeing them, they will also have a hard time seeing Wilson..

Kaep's only comparison that is like him physically is Cam Newton. Cam had a great rookie season and floundered in his second. Questions were raised by some of his offseason antics but every journalist who has studied his on the field play raves about his leadership and his commanding presence on the offensive side of the ball. He has all world speed and a rocket arm and is a tough runner. With Davis's speed, teams will have to pick their poison and decide if they want to stop the run and do one on one bump and run coverage with Davis, or double him and risk Colin scrambling teams to death behind a fantastic o line. Kaep's and Wilson's durability will be tested (since teams will look to hit them continuously) and it will be interesting to see how defense's scheme this year now that they have had all offseason to study.

Bradford is on trial this year; he has a few toys to play with this year but their depth is margin thin. He must show a quantum leap in accuracy toughness and leadership otherwise the Rams will be set back a couple years looking for a franchise QB. I like Bradford as a quarterback and him being an unknown makes the Rams the biggest sleeper in the NFL.

Should be fun!!

. Another QB Kap compares to IMO is Randall Cunningham

I didn't even bother with the Cardinals. Their offensive line is crappy and their defense lost Ray Horton who I thought coached these guys way above their capabilities on defense. Their D Coordinator is Todd Bowles who was the architect of that juggernaut Philly defense. Gonna be hard to complete passes with Palmer in the Hospital..
Originally posted by hawker84:
Originally posted by NinerBuff:
The only thing that Brees has over almost any QB in the league is his ability to quickly get threw 4 reads. But he's shown an ability to maintain elite QB play for years:

Since going to NO:
2006: 4418yds, 26 TDs, 11 INTs
2007: 4423 yds 28 TDs, 18 INTs
2008: 5069 yds 34 TDs, 17 INTs
2009: 4388 yds 34 TDs, 11 INTs
2010: 4620 yds 33 TDs, 22 INTs
2011: 5476 yds 46 TDs, 14 INTs
2012: 5177 yds 43 TDs, 19 INTs

That... is consistency. He may force too many turnovers, but he's consistently putting up 4500+ yds, 30+ TD years.

If RW can emulate that level of consistency, then the comparison is a good one. But until can prove to have elite consistency, he can't be compared to one of the greats.
I agree whole heartedly.. You cannot compare their accomplishments at this point, Brees wins hands down.

but the argument wasn't about accomplishments, it was about pure talent? My argument was , you don't know if RW is as talented as Brees because Brees has a much bigger body of work.. The only true fair comparison you can make at this point is both of their first full seasons as a starter, and based on the numbers you posted it looks fairly even, other than the INT's but Brees has him in total yrds, but they were in two totally different schemes.

But again i'm talking pure talent. Arm strength, accuracy, footwork, speed, elusivness, getting through your reads, recognizing defenses, leadership, making players around you better. SB vicories and Records, Wins and losses are the byproduct of these talents.

To compare the two with one having a year under his belt and the other having several is not fair, not accurate.

We're basically arguing about unkowns here. But in my gut, I feel that if you put RW on the Saints teams that Brees won with, RW wouldn't have come close to what Brees did. RW is elusive, and he can play well, but I just dont think he has the skills or abilities that Brees has. And it may be the mental makeup, and not so much the physical attributes. As of today, Brees is superior to Russell. If RW even wants to be taken seriously as a top 5 QB in this league, he'll have to prove it this year, just like Kaep, RG3, Luck, Cam, etc. But of all of them, I think RW is actually the worst of the bunch, he just has a great team around him, and a great homefield advantage. You can't fault the guy for those things though, but I can state that my opinion is that he isn't as good as the rest.