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*Strongside Pass Rush

Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Agreed. I'm very excited to see what reid can do. Very smart guy. I like his chances. I thought people were talking about dial starting at nose though? Do you guys think dorsey williams or dial are a notch above the rest of the group at nose?

Jim, NT has been one of my personal concerns dating back to when he didn't drat Vince Wilfork.

I realize my user name says Jim but that is not my name. You can use Jim though. Jim DrunkenMiller was my inspiration but you might have known that already. It was between that and The goatwhisperer for gio carmizzi. lol

Anyways I was unaware of just how many TD's whitner had given up, I knew it was a lot just not the most in the league 2 years in a row. That sheds some light as to why people on here talk so lowly about him. Do you think this has anything to do with him helping out in run support so much? I know a lot of strong safeties drop down and help a lot in the run so I would guess your answer would be no. It just seemed to me like Dashon played center field and whitner player in the box more often than you typically see.

I also find it funny that we typically rush 4 and they're typically the same 4 players. lol when like you said a 3-4 is usually used to disguise blitzes and coverages.

I know this should be in a different thread, but are you starting to get worried about all the injuries/surgeries we are recovering from. We have been fortunate not to have a ridiculous amount of injuries the past couple of seasons, and I realize most of these guys will be back by the start of the season. But who's to say they will return to their previous form?

I heard gore is recovering from something, don't know if that's true.

Then you have
Tank, Lattimore, Hunter, Manningham, Crabtree, Williams, Staley, and the smiths. I might be missing a couple too. So how concerned are you? very? or just sort of? That is 4 pro bowlers, 1 high draft pick and a couple playmakers. I don't really count lattimore because it seems like he wasn't a player they were planning on using this year anyway.
Our base package of our defense is a 3-4 yes, but I believe our defense is actually a 4-3 under for the most part, a big reason why we send 4 all the time and blitz less. I dont understand the obsession that fans have with blitzing either, our defense has been very successful sending just 4 and being able to drop back 7 to play the pass or run. To be fully honest in a league that has become pass first with most teams I love the fact we can send so many men into coverage or to play the run, and still consistantly be in the qbs face disrupting his vision and/or getting sacks.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Our base package of our defense is a 3-4 yes, but I believe our defense is actually a 4-3 under for the most part, a big reason why we send 4 all the time and blitz less. I dont understand the obsession that fans have with blitzing either, our defense has been very successful sending just 4 and being able to drop back 7 to play the pass or run. To be fully honest in a league that has become pass first with most teams I love the fact we can send so many men into coverage or to play the run, and still consistantly be in the qbs face disrupting his vision and/or getting sacks.

I agree. They just needed more depth on that front so they could substitute and keep players fresher. And, I think they've addressed that. That said, I'm hoping to see a little middle gap stunting when they play the Seahawks the way the Steelers used to harass Fran Tarkenton. The Steelers would contain the edges, collapse the pocket and then an ILB would look for a gap and do a delayed stunt right up the middle to try to take Tarkenton by surprise - really cuts down on the long scrambles. And Bowman and Willis are so amazingly quick that it could be a very powerful tactic.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Our base package of our defense is a 3-4 yes, but I believe our defense is actually a 4-3 under for the most part, a big reason why we send 4 all the time and blitz less. I dont understand the obsession that fans have with blitzing either, our defense has been very successful sending just 4 and being able to drop back 7 to play the pass or run. To be fully honest in a league that has become pass first with most teams I love the fact we can send so many men into coverage or to play the run, and still consistantly be in the qbs face disrupting his vision and/or getting sacks.

I like the way we run our defense first off. I also agree that being able to drop so many guys back in coverage is always a good thing. This is a tribute to our front seven but also a knock on our secondary. I do agree that we need to mix up our defense a lil bit more however, but even if we stick to rushing 4 more often than not like your saying then we have to bring a better pass rush from the strongside. I think if reid can get pick up the defense quick and Nhamdi can play a lil bit more like he did in Oakland that will allow us to bring more than 4 guys and not have to worry. I never said that I think we needed to blitz more often though so I don't think this was directed at me. I was saying that McDonald and Brooks need to step it up a notch and maybe there is something more to the 2 draftings than first meets the eye.

I remember going into the draft a lot of you were saying NT was a big need. A lot of you (since 49er fans are the smartest fans on the planet ) even projected that we wouldn't take a NT until the later rounds. But the fact that we drafted a wr, rb, te, de, olb all before a NT was a tribute again to how smart harbalke as you would put is because of their foresight. I didn't list safety because that was immediate need. Patton was drafted incase boldin or crabtree bolt, lattimore is the successor of gore, even though I think it will be 50/50 between him and hunter. Hunter is bad! Mcdonald was drafted to replace delanie who had a crucial part in our offense. Yes tank was drafted to replace Justin eventually but if we are on the brink of a superbowl and this kid has talent, than why not let him get some starter reps at LE if he proves his worth. The same applies with Lemonier.

I don't know the exact numbers of brooks or rogers contracts' but I do know they are due a lot of dough. I don't know how much would be dead money or what not but I do think it would be worth it to let them go eventually. Not this season, maybe not next, but when it makes sense to release them.

I believe that our pass rush is top 10 at the least and possibly top 5. The blind side rush is great no need to argue that. I think even our pass rush up the middle was more than acceptable. While Soap wasn't anything special, Bowman and Willis are. They caught offenses off guard because for one they wouldn't blitz very often and when they did, they are the fastest linebackers in the league( or close to it) and got there so dang quick. I have seen plenty of strongside 3-4 linebackers generate a ton of pressure even if there wasn't many this year. JJ Watt who is a freak 3-4 end had 20 sacks, which is double the amount of brooks and McDonald combined. Now I'm not saying Lemonier or Tank are even close to JJ Watt, nor am I implying that I expect brooks or McDonald to get 20 sacks separate or combined. I am simply stating that it can be done.

It is key to have a more successful pass rush if we are indeed heading for a more pass oriented league. I disagree about that though, because I believe the league will stay balanced. For one AP just broke 2000 yards, and for 2 teams are adapting and finding different ways of getting yards on the ground. Runnings qb's vick, rg3, kaep, Wilson, and manuel. Then you got Locker and ponder and heck even luck. Then you have the percy harvin type receivers that can run the ball too. The one thing about the league that is constant is change just like life, and I believe we are the best team in the league at adapting.
The other reason I brought up watt was because he plays on the strongside.
Let's not forget, that Trent and JH draft for next yr, not this yr. Now with Tank and Lemonier they did draft for relief for our front 7...so those guys will see playing time early on. But, they are truly here for next yr...and the yrs that follow. I cannot for the life of me recall a team so loaded that they drafted for two yrs out. But we drafted Kap, AJ , plus Tank and Lemonier for one to two yrs out. Lattimore...drafted for the following yr. Yes #1 pick Reid, WAS drafted for this yr and beyond, but you start looking at the roster, and it amazing how many guys were actually drafted not for this yr, but the next.

Yes, you do have to have a championship team where there are few holes to do this, but nonetheless, all the other F.Os are drafting for this yr...we aren't. Trent and Coach are playing chess, while other teams are playing checkers. Now, that is my kind of team.
How do can you tell the difference between a player that is ready now or won't be for a year or 2? Besides a major injury. Tank doesn't look very injured to me btw. I mean even though you can point to aj being small I've seen smaller guys come in and make an imediate impact. I think that one of harbaugh and baalke's biggest strength is creating competition even where it doesn't seem to be needed. Think about it, bowman with willis and spikes, hunter with gore, james with hunter and gore, and now lattimore. We drafted receivers 2 years in a row when it seemed like we were loaded with plenty of amo already. Kaep with alex. I just see it as more of an open competition I guess. Again not saying that this would happen immediately.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
How do can you tell the difference between a player that is ready now or won't be for a year or 2? Besides a major injury. Tank doesn't look very injured to me btw. I mean even though you can point to aj being small I've seen smaller guys come in and make an imediate impact. I think that one of harbaugh and baalke's biggest strength is creating competition even where it doesn't seem to be needed. Think about it, bowman with willis and spikes, hunter with gore, james with hunter and gore, and now lattimore. We drafted receivers 2 years in a row when it seemed like we were loaded with plenty of amo already. Kaep with alex. I just see it as more of an open competition I guess. Again not saying that this would happen immediately.

Simply put if there is a set starter in the position already to answer the bold. The only 2 drafted players that were more then likely going to see the field ALOT were Reid and Mcdonald because they were the only two positions (FS, #2 TE) on the team without "set" starters, but even they have players on the roster competing for there positions. I love the idea of creating competition because then no one gets the feeling of comfort to the point they may slack a little bit and "take plays off" by creating competition you get 110% from your players every day on the practice field and on the playing field. Many newcomers to the team such a Boldin said its the best thing you can do for young players and the older players because it gets maximum effort so competition is always needed imo.
[ Edited by LoneWolf on May 29, 2013 at 9:06 PM ]
I see Brooks as an eventual cap casualty. We'll be extremely lucky if Lemonier can eventually be as good as a player as Brooks. Brooks strengths to me is that he's just solid at everything and he makes bigs plays. That being said, a big, dominant right tackle will shut him down, but he's still solid against the run and in coverage.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Simply put if there is a set starter in the position already to answer the bold. The only 2 drafted players that were more then likely going to see the field ALOT were Reid and Mcdonald because they were the only two positions (FS, #2 TE) on the team without "set" starters, but even they have players on the roster competing for there positions. I love the idea of creating competition because then no one gets the feeling of comfort to the point they may slack a little bit and "take plays off" by creating competition you get 110% from your players every day on the practice field and on the playing field. Many newcomers to the team such a Boldin said its the best thing you can do for young players and the older players because it gets maximum effort so competition is always needed imo.

no my question was how can he tell how they are just going to be number 2 guys? How do you know brooks and mcdonald are set starters? parys harlson was the set starter and aldon smith put up 14 sacks right? He eventually took most of the snaps didn't he? There are guys that beat out "set starters" all the time.. How can you guys tell that lemonier and tank can't make an impact from day 1 and eventually take over the statting role? Do they not have what it takes? Are they too raw?
Haralson also got injured, Aldon didnt have all of the defense down but had to be the starter because of injury and lack of depth. No one is saying Tank or Lemonier wont make an impact from day one, but its unlikely Tank takes over for anyone yet, hes already gunna be starting late due to injury. Lemonier IMO is still a little to raw to take over for a starter yet especially with more experienced backups already on the roster in case of injury. I can tell Brooks and RayMac are the set starters due to experience in the league and our system, now that doesnt mean either tank or lemonier wont become key players on situational downs like Aldon was in his first year. But thats a very short period of time to strike defensive gold twice. Now calm down and Drink A Miller.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
You can insult my intelligence all you want. Your just a homer that's ignorant. You like every 49er fan (including myself) likes to think almost everyone on the team is a top 10 player. We have the best left side of the line in the league and possibly the best right side as well, we have a top 10 rb, top 10 qb, top 10 wideout, top 10 tight end, probably the best backup qb, rb, wr and te combo in the league. (this is last year's team I'm talking about) We have the best Weakside lb/end combo in the league(sorry for that HUGE mistake), we have one of the best safety tandems, the best ilb tandem, and on and on. If that was the case than we should've smoke atl and Baltimore regardless of our injuries. Remember Baltimore was banged up too. Obviously there is a lot more to football, as a left outside backer you have to be able to cover the tight end at times, set the edge and get after the qb. To me ahmad brooks is only good at one thing and that is setting the edge. Ray Mac isn't a top 10 defensive end either. To all those out there too that said ahmad brooks is a top 5 strongside 3-4 linebacker. Remember that the 4-3 is used by more teams than the 3-4 so take that into account. Saying that ahmad brooks is a top 5 3-4 strongside backer isn't as impressive. Same thing can be said about ray mac.

Ok I've heard over and over that Brooks is a second team all-pro. I would be willing to put money that brooks doesn't see another pro bowl. He wasn't even a top 5 player on his own defense last year, Willis Bowman the smiths and Golston all were more crucial to the team. I would be willing to argue that a case can be made for brown and whitner too.

Let me tell you that I am not a stat guy, and loved when Justin smith said stats are for losers so that is why I don't typically throw them out there. But for those of you that are stat nerds let me key you in on a couple things.

First off when you matched up against the 49ers it was hard to run the ball to the right, but it was a nightmare running up the gut and to the left unless you are marshawn lynch. I'm sure if someone pulled up a stat it would show that teams gained a lot more yards running to the right than the left. Doubt I need to argue that.

Secondly when the smiths weren't at 100% more was required of other people on defense. Nobody stepped up. We got spanked in the second half of the patriot game, spanked against seattle, lit up by ryan and company, and then finished off by the ultimate embarrassment of losing the superbowl. You can say they played solid all you want but solid wasn't good enough. I'm pretty sure all of you are aware of the outrageous numbers teams put up against us after those guys were injured so I won't waste your time posting that.

Lastly I will however post numbers of other 3-4 outside linebacker combos and individuals that have better numbers than brooks for what it's worth.

First off the All Stars

Matthews
161 total tackles 29.5 6 FF 4 Int 10-12
last year he put up 43 tackles 13 sacks and a FF playing through an injury

Suggs
138 tt 25 sacks 9 FF 2 Int 10-11
Paul Kruger had more sacks than brooks and probably a better year all around. Paul Kruger is overrated and overpaid.
Second the combos

Pitt
Woodley 170 tt 35 sacks 6 FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
77 tt 13 sacks 1 FF 2 Int while battling an injury 2 years
To me Brooks is a poor mans Woodley and it's funny cuz Woodley puts up similar numbers battling an injury

Harrison 280 tt 36.5 sacks 18FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
129 tt 15 sacks 4 FF 2 years thru injury

Dallas
Ware
180 tt 46.5 sacks 9 FF 3 years
Spencer 224 tt 22 sacks 6 FF 3 years

KC
Houston 122 tt 15.5 sacks 2 FF 1 Int 2 years
Ali 168 tt 25.5 sacks 9FF 3 years.

SF
brooks 96 tt 13.5 sacks 3 FF 1 Int 2 years
smith 103 tt 33.5 sacks 5 FF 1 Int 2 years

Wash
Kerrigan
117 tt 16 sacks 6 FF 2 Int 2 years
Orakpo
165 tt 28.5 sacks 5 FF 3 years.

The packers would've been in the discussion had perry stayed healthy. All I'm saying is brooks looks to me like the least productive of the group, and although he's a good player I still think we can do a lot better. Same with McDonald, it's unfair to compare him to watt because they play differently but watt does so much more for your defense. You have to adjust the way you throw because he batts balls out of the air, had more than 20 sacks at a 3-4 defensive end which is absurd and was still formidable against the run.

I'm glad the webzone isn't running the team because they don't believe in change. If it ain't broke don't fix it... maybe but it can be improved upon and that's why they brought in the competiton.


Wow...just wow. Maybe you've had a Miller too many. Goldson was completely overrated by most here on the zone. Brooks and McDonald are both top 10 in their respective positions and it doesn't take a homer to see. The rookies will likely get a decent amount of playing time, but neither is going to replace the projected starter.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Haralson also got injured, Aldon didnt have all of the defense down but had to be the starter because of injury and lack of depth. No one is saying Tank or Lemonier wont make an impact from day one, but its unlikely Tank takes over for anyone yet, hes already gunna be starting late due to injury. Lemonier IMO is still a little to raw to take over for a starter yet especially with more experienced backups already on the roster in case of injury. I can tell Brooks and RayMac are the set starters due to experience in the league and our system, now that doesnt mean either tank or lemonier wont become key players on situational downs like Aldon was in his first year. But thats a very short period of time to strike defensive gold twice. Now calm down and Drink A Miller.

I wasn't talking about harlson last season. I was referring to aldon's rookie year. It seemed to me like late in the season he got more reps that harlson. I think part of it had to due with the fact that teams couldn't run against us so they came out in more passing formations more often 3 wideout 4 wideouts ect..

Second I haven't heard anything indicating that tank can't make an immediate impact for us this season . I heard harbaugh tell lattimore to take his time but didn't mention tank.

I do agree that lemonier is still pretty raw, but I do think eventually he can take over for brooks, as soon as late this season. I've also seen players with less nfl experience and less experience with the system a team runs take over in their first year. For example victor cruz and arian foster.

I just don't get why everyone is so quick to write these guys off. If any team has a chance to strike gold twice is would be the 49ers.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I wasn't talking about harlson last season. I was referring to aldon's rookie year. It seemed to me like late in the season he got more reps that harlson. I think part of it had to due with the fact that teams couldn't run against us so they came out in more passing formations more often 3 wideout 4 wideouts ect..

Second I haven't heard anything indicating that tank can't make an immediate impact for us this season . I heard harbaugh tell lattimore to take his time but didn't mention tank.

I do agree that lemonier is still pretty raw, but I do think eventually he can take over for brooks, as soon as late this season. I've also seen players with less nfl experience and less experience with the system a team runs take over in their first year. For example victor cruz and arian foster.

I just don't get why everyone is so quick to write these guys off. If any team has a chance to strike gold twice is would be the 49ers.
Honestly no one is writing these guys off, we havent even seen them play yet, but we have seen the players on our defense and it doesn't need to be said but it has been satisfactory and successful (other then the obvious flaws in the secondary). In Aldon's rookie year he was a situational down LB, which is pretty much what Tank will be doing this year. You are right about Aldons rookie year atowards the end of the season he may have seen more playing time for multiple reason biggest one being we were the best run defense in the league that year and teams had to use an alternative offense against us by passing the ball, giving Aldon more reps. The reference to Harbaugh telling Lattimore take his time and not Tank is really unneccesary due to the fact Tank tore his ACL, Lattimore had one of the most gruesome knee injuries in College sports the comparison is irrelevant.
Was wondering what the argument is regarding McDonald and Brooks? Did the niners draft someone who will take their places? What's the likelihood of them being cut? Does it sound reasonable that Harbaugh would cut too valuable players and replace them with rookies? Any examples of this from the past two years?

Seems to me that this is not the year to consider whether the two mentioned above are good enough, but to hope they are and wish the team well.
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