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*Strongside Pass Rush

Alot of 3-4 defensive ends get double teamed, and implying that teams didn't double team ray mac during the season even when smith was healthy is wrong. But teams did frequently double team smith and more often than they did mac... and guess what mac still wasn't very productive. even soap got double teams so I don't want to hear it. btw I agree soap wasn't a strength. I'm not talking about just throwing them out there right away, I'm talking about grooming them and giving them more and more reps. Lemonier no doubt has a steep hill to climb but I think if tank gets significantly stronger and maintains his burst than I don't see why not. Tomsula is probably the best at what he does out of any of the position coaches. Although I like our oline coach's track record too. priest holmes and larry johnson. brian walters and willie roaf.
I sort of agree on McDonald. He's a good consistent player and a quick twitch athlete but he's not consistent or a force OL have to worry about too much. He is a good player though. I have always wondered how Brooks would do over Justin instead of McDonald. McDonald likes to shoot gaps off the snap and perhaps, he is getting worn down and/or isn't schemed to attack gaps (one-gapping) in our 3-4. I have a feeling Dial is going to be his backup whereby Tank is going to back up Justin. I also expect to see more 4-man DL sets this year and that may allow players such as McDonald, Tank and Aldon (even Brooks) to move inside on the LOS along the DL and "attack" more...playing to their strengths.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 29, 2013 at 6:56 AM ]
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Alot of 3-4 defensive ends get double teamed, and implying that teams didn't double team ray mac during the season even when smith was healthy is wrong. But teams did frequently double team smith and more often than they did mac... and guess what mac still wasn't very productive. even soap got double teams so I don't want to hear it. btw I agree soap wasn't a strength. I'm not talking about just throwing them out there right away, I'm talking about grooming them and giving them more and more reps. Lemonier no doubt has a steep hill to climb but I think if tank gets significantly stronger and maintains his burst than I don't see why not. Tomsula is probably the best at what he does out of any of the position coaches. Although I like our oline coach's track record too. priest holmes and larry johnson. brian walters and willie roaf.

Of course tank is going to get a bunch of reps, one part due to the need of rotation the other part due to he was drafted to be Justins successor. Lemonier Im up in the air about i havent seen enough about him and most of my attention span has been on the real positions of need on the defense....
Agreed. I'm very excited to see what reid can do. Very smart guy. I like his chances. I thought people were talking about dial starting at nose though? Do you guys think dorsey williams or dial are a notch above the rest of the group at nose?
Dorsey would be atop of the list depending on how quickly he picks up the defense based on NFL/starter experience, Ian Williams would be next because of his experience in our defensive scheme, and then Dial simply because he's new to both the NFL and the 49ers.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Dorsey would be atop of the list depending on how quickly he picks up the defense based on NFL/starter experience, Ian Williams would be next because of his experience in our defensive scheme, and then Dial simply because he's new to both the NFL and the 49ers.

I thought so as he was what the number 6 player in his draft and talked up to be the next warren sapp. but didn't he play defensive end at kc? is a transition going to nose hard?
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I thought so as he was what the number 6 player in his draft and talked up to be the next warren sapp. but didn't he play defensive end at kc? is a transition going to nose hard?

Yes and yes the transition and be tough for some players, and then there are some that can play both positions though most of the time I see those players usually as backups due to there transition ability such as RJF. Dorsey has the body size more for NT then DE and should do much better lining up against Centers and Guards rather then Tackles
[ Edited by LoneWolf on May 28, 2013 at 9:37 PM ]
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Believe it or not any position on this team other then possibly MLB where we have the top two in the league could be upgraded, there is always someone that can play better then the current player on the team. But as a team sport the defense we have currently with the exception of a semi weak secondary is truly second to none. Everyone in our defense primarily the front 7 plays a major role in how our defense succeeds. Take two players away from that front seven no matter the weaker links or our best two or a combination of best and weakest and our front 7 will struggle. Im wording it this way because of the suggestion that Brooks and RayMac should have picked up the slack when the Smiths were injured but its hard for any team to have to pick up the slack for 2 main contributers for a team. RayMac was constantly occupying 2 Olineman similar to the way Justin was how does he pick up the slack there? Occupy 4 Olineman? When Aldon became obviously hurt and was playing with one arm how does Brooks pick up the slack without leaving giant holes in the defense on the strong side? Its pretty hard to blindside a QB when he's already staring at you. I am not a ignorant, blind or dumb homer, I just know what I see with my eyes and hear with my ears. Many times throughout the season during games, I saw Brooks and RayMac playing there roles to a t and stopping many plays for losses or at the line, and heard many time about Brooks being the unsung hero of the defense. Really the weak spot in the front 7 that anyone should be more concerned with filling and hoping one of the new players can contribute maximum ability to is the NT position where we seemed to be the least successful last year. Just my opinion.

Good post! I would put Justin Smith, Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis and NaVorro Bowman in the elite category, which makes all other team mates seem mediocre by comparison. But we may see a revitalized secondary and better depth all around. The one area that still worries me is NT, but I'll trust the coaches decisions on this. Brooks and McDonald are very dependable, solid players at the least.

All positions could be upgraded except for those played by the elite guys.

On offense the number of elite players is much smaller--Kaepernick may be there this coming year (I don't believe in sophomore slumps as a rule), Gore is aging, VD is probably an elite player with a few shortcomings for his position, and a couple linemen could be considered elite...maybe. Oddly, Boone may turn out to be the best lineman on the team this year or next, if he isn't already.

Future elite players? My guesses--McDonald, Patton, James on offense; with Tank and Reid on defense.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Agreed. I'm very excited to see what reid can do. Very smart guy. I like his chances. I thought people were talking about dial starting at nose though? Do you guys think dorsey williams or dial are a notch above the rest of the group at nose?

Jim, NT has been one of my personal concerns dating back to when he didn't drat Vince Wilfork. And it's still an issue today. It appears Fangio isn't attracted to two-gap NT's and instead, goes for smaller, one-gap NT's that rely on shooting the correct gap for penetration or trying to hold the point of attack (POA) upon snap...occupy and hold ground against 2 OL. But b/c of the stellar play from the rest of the front 7 (minus the NT), teams haven't bothered to run on us much over the past two years. They pass. And why not? It's interesting that you're focus has been on providing more consistent pressure from the outside (Brooks/McDonald). My biggest concern is the NT position for this very reason. I see consistent pressure from the outside by both Aldon/Brooks "when they are free to rush" (e.g. when the TE or RB stays in to block, etc.). The issue is that the QB always seems to have a clean, step-up lane with perfect vision. Look no further than the Superbowl when Flacco was constantly stepping up in the pocket and heaving Hail Mary's down the field hoping someone would catch them and score (and they did).

Right now we have an unknown in Dorsey manning the NT position backed up with another one-gapper in Williams (in the mold of RJF or Franklin). We tend to struggle greatly against power running teams and we face quite a few of them again this year. For instance, look at the SeAdderall CheatHawks. If they can (and have) establish their power running game, Wilson's entire game is predicated off this and the deep, play-action passing game.

This is why my biggest wild card on my projected 53 man roster is NT Lamar Divens (6'3" 340). If this guy can demonstrate not only occupying two OL, playing the correct gaps but also penetrating and closing the door of the step-up lane for QB's, we may have something special here. It's a very long shot in my books but this kind of beef, strength, etc. is what we REALLY need...not only in collapsing the pocket but also in short yardage and goal line situations (other areas of weakness).

B/c we have such a stacked team now with depth and competition, we may see more "specialty" players making the team.
Good post NC! I'm beginning to understand the 9ers logic regarding NTs but still would like to see a beast in there someday. Sopoaga was quck, strong and smart. He could hold the middle well enough to require double teams if they wanted to move him out, opening a spot for the running back, but also for our all-pro MLBs. With Willis and Bowman in there they do not have to go heavy in the middle against the run, but they have given up an ability to penetrate in the middle.

I was hoping t he niners could find a guy who could attack the QB on passing downs by collapsing the pocket. Then it dawned on me that it might be better to contain the QB, especially Wilson, in the pocket rather than having him moving all over the place. So...perhaps I have been over rating collapsing the pocket in the middle.

If they can find a guy like J Smith, with a few more pounds...
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Good post NC! I'm beginning to understand the 9ers logic regarding NTs but still would like to see a beast in there someday. Sopoaga was quck, strong and smart. He could hold the middle well enough to require double teams if they wanted to move him out, opening a spot for the running back, but also for our all-pro MLBs. With Willis and Bowman in there they do not have to go heavy in the middle against the run, but they have given up an ability to penetrate in the middle.

I was hoping t he niners could find a guy who could attack the QB on passing downs by collapsing the pocket. Then it dawned on me that it might be better to contain the QB, especially Wilson, in the pocket rather than having him moving all over the place. So...perhaps I have been over rating collapsing the pocket in the middle.

If they can find a guy like J Smith, with a few more pounds...

I don't think you are at all. The problem is that against a team that can run on us, it lends to many play-action passes which means Bowman and Willis are in deep coverage often times leaving the middle wide open (for TE's) and we see how we do with deep threats forcing more DB's on the field and less pass rushers and less playing down hill. Stopping the run is paramount to the success of our D often times. I keep saying this but I think, "Scheme is the Theme" for 2013. I have a strong belief that we'll see more rotation and more 4-man DL sets to combat the run and put additional pressure on the QB and contain him from launching bombs down the field on Whitner, Culliver, Rogers and perhaps, Reid (not a strength of ours). We should see additional rotation at OLB as well. All this would be designed around NOT having an every-down NT who can help collapse the pocket and who is immoveable in the run-game.
Originally posted by NCommand:
I don't think you are at all. The problem is that against a team that can run on us, it lends to many play-action passes which means Bowman and Willis are in deep coverage often times leaving the middle wide open (for TE's) and we see how we do with deep threats forcing more DB's on the field and less pass rushers and less playing down hill. Stopping the run is paramount to the success of our D often times. I keep saying this but I think, "Scheme is the Theme" for 2013. I have a strong belief that we'll see more rotation and more 4-man DL sets to combat the run and put additional pressure on the QB and contain him from launching bombs down the field on Whitner, Culliver, Rogers and perhaps, Reid (not a strength of ours). We should see additional rotation at OLB as well. All this would be designed around NOT having an every-down NT who can help collapse the pocket and who is immoveable in the run-game.


I think part of the problem was exactly what you hit on. We don't blitz as often as other teams because we drop so many guys back in coverage. We typically rush 4 guys more often than not. I don't think LE or LOLB are a position of need necessarily, but I do think we need to upgrade our passrush from that side. I do think eventually tank will take over for justin smith but I don't see him being Justin's backup this year. The reason I say that is because Justin (if heathly) will rarely come off the field. That would mean tank would see a very small number of snaps, and I see him getting more snaps.

The left side of the line is not my main concern on defense but it is a concern. My main concerns last year were NT and corner. This year I will throw in safety even though I'm confident we got the guy we wanted. It just seems like on offense we don't need much and defense we can use alot more help. A center is one need and a wideout might be another if one of our younger guys doesn't step up. Boldin is a one year deal to me and I think he will be gone next year along with crabtree possibly.

I also like the fact that we didn't go out and throw a bunch of money at free agents. Instead we signed alot of people to good deals in free agency and added alot of people in the draft and will let them compete to earn their spot. When you throw 100 mil at an albert haynesworth or a mario williams, more times than not it comes back to bite you in the butt

As always thanks for the info. This offseason doesn't seem so bad when you have knowledgable fans to bounce ideas off of.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller: I think part of the problem was exactly what you hit on. We don't blitz as often as other teams because we drop so many guys back in coverage. We typically rush 4 guys more often than not. I don't think LE or LOLB are a position of need necessarily, but I do think we need to upgrade our passrush from that side. I do think eventually tank will take over for justin smith but I don't see him being Justin's backup this year. The reason I say that is because Justin (if heathly) will rarely come off the field. That would mean tank would see a very small number of snaps, and I see him getting more snaps.
Agreed, this season, "Scheme if the Theme." Last year was implementation and changing of the guards. This year will be about taking that next step offensively and defensively and scheming more pressure, playing more to players strengths, etc. We certainly run a very vanilla defense which is the anti-3-4, really; a defense designed to disguise blitzes, pressures and coverages. Yeah, I'm hoping we see more Dial for McDonald, more Tank for Justin, more rotation at NT, more 4-man DL's, etc. I'd love to see Willis and Bowman get out of coverage and start playing down hill and even helping more to bring pressure. When was the last time we blitzed a S? A CB?

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller: The left side of the line is not my main concern on defense but it is a concern. My main concerns last year were NT and corner. This year I will throw in safety even though I'm confident we got the guy we wanted. It just seems like on offense we don't need much and defense we can use alot more help. A center is one need and a wideout might be another if one of our younger guys doesn't step up. Boldin is a one year deal to me and I think he will be gone next year along with crabtree possibly.
Agreed on all accounts. SS is a HUGE concern of mine b/c Whitner gave up the most TD's in the NFL last year and that has been the case for two straight years. His issues aren't correctable either and he's another year older and will be extra focused on aiding Reid. Perhaps Baalke signed Dahl to compete with him there while he also trains at FS while Reid learns the position. I doubt he'd give up that many TD's. We keep minimizing this but it was the difference all season(s) long and it costed us the Superbowl.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller: I also like the fact that we didn't go out and throw a bunch of money at free agents. Instead we signed alot of people to good deals in free agency and added alot of people in the draft and will let them compete to earn their spot. When you throw 100 mil at an albert haynesworth or a mario williams, more times than not it comes back to bite you in the butt

As always thanks for the info. This offseason doesn't seem so bad when you have knowledgable fans to bounce ideas off of.
Agreed on all these points as well. We see just the opposite here. FA's want to play with us. In fact, they restructure to stay with us. We don't need to overpay anyone...you'll get a fair or reasonable contract but the Goldson's, Sopoaga's, RJF's. etc. of the world can get their overpriced paychecks somewhere else!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Jim, NT has been one of my personal concerns dating back to when he didn't drat Vince Wilfork. And it's still an issue today.

This is why my biggest wild card on my projected 53 man roster is NT Lamar Divens (6'3" 340). If this guy can demonstrate not only occupying two OL, playing the correct gaps but also penetrating and closing the door of the step-up lane for QB's, we may have something special here. It's a very long shot in my books but this kind of beef, strength, etc. is what we REALLY need...not only in collapsing the pocket but also in short yardage and goal line situations (other areas of weakness).

Wouldn't you think Dial has a chance to contribute here? He's huge. Maybe he's too tall? What is he, about 6'8", 325?
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Jim, NT has been one of my personal concerns dating back to when he didn't drat Vince Wilfork. And it's still an issue today.

This is why my biggest wild card on my projected 53 man roster is NT Lamar Divens (6'3" 340). If this guy can demonstrate not only occupying two OL, playing the correct gaps but also penetrating and closing the door of the step-up lane for QB's, we may have something special here. It's a very long shot in my books but this kind of beef, strength, etc. is what we REALLY need...not only in collapsing the pocket but also in short yardage and goal line situations (other areas of weakness).

Wouldn't you think Dial has a chance to contribute here? He's huge. Maybe he's too tall? What is he, about 6'8", 325?

He will probably spell there as well...versatile guy but seems best suited for LDE backing up/spelling McDonald. He's 6'5" 318.

STRENGTHS
Versatile athletic defensive lineman who plays on the nose, three-technique and five-technique spots on either side of the line. Tall, powerful player who can drop his hips despite his height to hold his ground or drive his man backwards on bull rush. Also capable of holding the edge against the run, using strong arm extension and hands to contain or crash inside. Has good short area agility for his size, and often hustles to the ball. Wraps up ballcarriers in tight quarters with bad intentions.

WEAKNESSES
Did not start many times during his time at Alabama, leading to a lack of production, especially against better offensive lines. Solid space eater who does not get off the ball with great pace or shed quickly enough to make stops against the run consistently. Will fail to break down quickly in the backfield or in space to make tackles against more elusive ballcarriers. Gets cut easily and can be put off-balance during his pass rush because of his height, though he tries to recover quickly. Underwent offseason toe surgery.

NFL COMPARISON
DeAngelo Tyson

BOTTOM LINE
This junior college transfer isn't as highly-regarded as Terrence "Mount" Cody was a couple of years ago, nor his current teammate, Jesse Williams. But it's not easy for NFL teams to find defensive linemen with his size and length to play the five-technique spot in the 3-4 scheme or three-technique in the 4-3. Dial's versatility will likely find him drafted late.

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2013/profiles/quinton-dial?id=2539960