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*Strongside Pass Rush

  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,551
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by Allx9er:
who the heck is golston

vernon golston :) he played safety for us.

No, you are wrong about this.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
yes. vernon golston is spelled as so and dashon goldson is spelled differently. I used the wrong spelling, they are very nitpicky around here.

Lol yeah they are.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
yes. vernon golston is spelled as so and dashon goldson is spelled differently. I used the wrong spelling, they are very nitpicky around here.

Hate to be a spoil sport...but you have both misspelled...unlike ee cummings, they both capitalize the first letter of each name. But only Dashing Goldson has earned his capital letters, in my opinion.
[ Edited by dtg_9er on May 27, 2013 at 5:55 PM ]
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Ok I've heard over and over that Brooks is a second team all-pro i would be willing to put money that brooks doesn't see another pro bowl. He wasn't even a top 5 player on his own defense last year, Willis Bowman the smiths and Golston all were more crucial to the team. I would be willing to argue that a case can be made for brown and whitner too.

I hate to knit pick on a dead end thread but what does being all pro have to do with the pro bowl?
For educational purposes (and it's probably already been discussed (but the weak side is the opposite side the TE lines up at; strong side is the side the TE lines up at). You have two outside LBers. One is the strong (SAM = Brooks) and weak (WILL = Aldon). This is b/c the TE typically lines up on Brooks side of the formation which means Brooks not only has to watch for a RB "or" the TE flaring out but fight through BOTH the TE and OT if they stay in. If you watch ANY game, you will find that teams scheme to block out Brooks and rarely even attempt to run on Brooks/McDonald's side. Why bother? So if you're SAM is in the 6+ sack range, that is typically equal to 12+ sacks on the weak side (Aldon).

As to your one reference, notice how Brooks was the only one IN the backfield chasing him around? His rush kept him in the pocket, didn't allow him on the edge and had little, if any help from the rest of the front 7. This is just a great job of Wilson avoiding pressure from one guy and not having to worry too much about the other 6 front 7 guys. This is similar to having pressure on the outside by Brooks/Aldon but not having a NT (or ILB who fills the gap) to help collapse the pocket so a guy like Flacco can just step up and heave hail mary's for completions/TD's.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Well, Ahmed Brooks has recorded 23.5 sacks over the last four seasons. That's not insignificant. It's 10 more than Julian Peterson recorded in his last four years with the team and lots of fans around here seem to think Peterson was an awesome sack-master. Let's keep in mind that players who get close to 20 sacks in a season are not very common, so comparing Brooks to Aldon Smith is not exactly fair. Aldon Smith is a truly amazing sack-man on the order of a Charles Haley or Fred Dean.

Well it's not insignificant, but I'm not impressed either. He had 6.5 sacks last year, and that's not very much. I realize that he is a better run stopper than a pass rusher, but I think he can be upgraded. So do you agree that our weakside passrush does need to be upgraded? or is it fine as is?

Actually, for a SAM OLB in the 3-4, I believe only one other LB had more. So it is a ton esp. when you factor in TFL (which are like sacks), knock down passes, pick-6's, clutch plays, etc. Picture this...Aldon is 9 feet tall with his arms and when was the last time he knocked down a pass? Sealed the edge? Dropped back in coverage and forced a pick/TO/fumble? Aldon still has a long ways to go and you are only focusing on one aspect of being a complete WILL (although he is epic at it).

That said, Fangio needs to continue to move both OLB's around (less vanilla scheme) and allow both Brooks/Aldon to attack weaknesses on the LOS and create confusion. Hopefully, he'll do that this year. But both players, straight up, have very different responsibilities....but can be used interchangeably.

PS: Also remember, the SAM rushes from SIGHT LINE of the QB...not from the blind side (back side). This is a difficult challenge in and of itself.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 28, 2013 at 9:53 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
For educational purposes (and it's probably already been discussed (but the weak side is the opposite side the TE lines up at; strong side is the side the TE lines up at). You have two outside LBers. One is the strong (SAM = Brooks) and weak (WILL = Aldon). This is b/c the TE typically lines up on Brooks side of the formation which means Brooks not only has to watch for a RB "or" the TE flaring out but fight through BOTH the TE and OT if they stay in. If you watch ANY game, you will find that teams scheme to block out Brooks and rarely even attempt to run on Brooks/McDonald's side. Why bother? So if you're SAM is in the 6+ sack range, that is typically equal to 12+ sacks on the weak side (Aldon).

As to your one reference, notice how Brooks was the only one IN the backfield chasing him around? His rush kept him in the pocket, didn't allow him on the edge and had little, if any help from the rest of the front 7. This is just a great job of Wilson avoiding pressure from one guy and not having to worry too much about the other 6 front 7 guys. This is similar to having pressure on the outside by Brooks/Aldon but not having a NT (or ILB who fills the gap) to help collapse the pocket so a guy like Flacco can just step up and heave hail mary's for completions/TD's.

Thanks for the reminder/lesson! Many seem to think the two positions are the same and that Brooks has a clean avenue to the QB...or no other responsibilities. Such a team game!
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
The fact is we lost the superbowl. What does every 49er fan point to as one of the main excuses? Well Justin and Aldon weren't healthy. Well if Justin and Aldon weren't healthy then it's up to other guys to pick up the slack and make plays... That didn't happen. Ray Mcdonald is no JJ Watt and Ahmad brooks is no Von Miller, and that doesn't mean corey lemonier or tank carradine will be, but you never know.

You do know that the ONLY two players who had sacks in the Superbowl were Brooks and McDonald right? And both were CRITICAL plays. And again, you seem to be really confusing WILL positions with SAM positions which are very different. You are even confusing DE positions.

As to the solutions, Brooks has taken the 2nd most snaps of any defensive player so THIS year, we finally may have someone that can spell him who looks like an AB-clone...Lemonier. Tank will spell Justin and Halarson/Fleming/Johnson will spell Aldon on 1st downs (or some pass rush downs depending on who wins the battle and their strengths) and BOTH Brooks and Aldon may be in better position down the stretch.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
For educational purposes (and it's probably already been discussed (but the weak side is the opposite side the TE lines up at; strong side is the side the TE lines up at). You have two outside LBers. One is the strong (SAM = Brooks) and weak (WILL = Aldon). This is b/c the TE typically lines up on Brooks side of the formation which means Brooks not only has to watch for a RB "or" the TE flaring out but fight through BOTH the TE and OT if they stay in. If you watch ANY game, you will find that teams scheme to block out Brooks and rarely even attempt to run on Brooks/McDonald's side. Why bother? So if you're SAM is in the 6+ sack range, that is typically equal to 12+ sacks on the weak side (Aldon).

As to your one reference, notice how Brooks was the only one IN the backfield chasing him around? His rush kept him in the pocket, didn't allow him on the edge and had little, if any help from the rest of the front 7. This is just a great job of Wilson avoiding pressure from one guy and not having to worry too much about the other 6 front 7 guys. This is similar to having pressure on the outside by Brooks/Aldon but not having a NT (or ILB who fills the gap) to help collapse the pocket so a guy like Flacco can just step up and heave hail mary's for completions/TD's.

Thanks for the reminder/lesson! Many seem to think the two positions are the same and that Brooks has a clean avenue to the QB...or no other responsibilities. Such a team game!

Totally...your "stat" guys such as Von Miller, Aldon Smith, Clay Matthews, etc. all play off the BLIND side of the QB typically and are schemed to attack the QB. If you have a good DC he may move them around more. For instance, one game Matthews will be attacking Joe Staley from the WILL spot while the next game, he may attack more from the SAM position (if a team has a weak ROT). But you scheme your best pass rusher for these circumstances.

Brooks is so balanced he can play from both the SAM and WILL as well as inside DT, DE and ILB and even start there and drop back into zone coverage (where he got the pick 6). And my favorite formation is when BOTH Aldon/Brooks line up next to each other. Aldon will line up at SAM and Brooks will line up as DE or ILB and they will stunt and rush. This seems to work every single time b/c as an OL, who are you going to block and from where? It typically results in either Brooks or Aldon or both getting to the QB between the ROT and ROG gap freely (one occupies two; very similar to how Aldon works off Justin). Team game is RIGHT!
[ Edited by NCommand on May 28, 2013 at 9:56 AM ]
Originally posted by buck:
Considering that Ahmad Brooks is an All Pro linebacker, it is a more than reasonable deduction.

If I remember correctly, the players, and maybe the coaches, vote for the All Pro team. Is that right?

Pro Football Focus has Ahmad Brooks listed as the 5th best 3-4 outside linebacker in 2012.

And I am willing to bet the four ahead of him ALL play the WILL? Brooks is probably the best SAM OLB in the game right now (or a close second). It appears the OP is too Madden-focused at the moment. This is real football. A team game.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 28, 2013 at 9:32 AM ]
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
You can insult my intelligence all you want. Your just a homer that's ignorant.

It's, you're.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Matthews
161 total tackles 29.5 6 FF 4 Int 10-12
last year he put up 43 tackles 13 sacks and a FF playing through an injury

Suggs
138 tt 25 sacks 9 FF 2 Int 10-11
Paul Kruger had more sacks than brooks and probably a better year all around. Paul Kruger is overrated and overpaid.
Second the combos

Pitt
Woodley 170 tt 35 sacks 6 FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
77 tt 13 sacks 1 FF 2 Int while battling an injury 2 years
To me Brooks is a poor mans Woodley and it's funny cuz Woodley puts up similar numbers battling an injury

Harrison 280 tt 36.5 sacks 18FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
129 tt 15 sacks 4 FF 2 years thru injury

Dallas
Ware
180 tt 46.5 sacks 9 FF 3 years
Spencer 224 tt 22 sacks 6 FF 3 years

KC
Houston 122 tt 15.5 sacks 2 FF 1 Int 2 years
Ali 168 tt 25.5 sacks 9FF 3 years.

SF
brooks 96 tt 13.5 sacks 3 FF 1 Int 2 years
smith 103 tt 33.5 sacks 5 FF 1 Int 2 years

Wash
Kerrigan
117 tt 16 sacks 6 FF 2 Int 2 years
Orakpo
165 tt 28.5 sacks 5 FF 3 years.

The packers would've been in the discussion had perry stayed healthy. All I'm saying is brooks looks to me like the least productive of the group, and although he's a good player I still think we can do a lot better. Same with McDonald, it's unfair to compare him to watt because they play differently but watt does so much more for your defense. You have to adjust the way you throw because he batts balls out of the air, had more than 20 sacks at a 3-4 defensive end which is absurd and was still formidable against the run.

I'm glad the webzone isn't running the team because they don't believe in change. If it ain't broke don't fix it... maybe but it can be improved upon and that's why they brought in the competiton.

You've pretty much listed all WILL LBers in the 3-4...doing their jobs blitzing from the backside of the QB while the other front 7 players aid in this scheme; to "attack." Pittsburgh was the ideal but they scheme VERY differently than Fangio. Both OLB's in the Steelers scheme are rotated often and attack behind the LOS from various positions. We play very vanilla under Fangio. You're issue isn't with Brooks. It's with Fangio. This issue (and the lack of depth and rotation the past two years) seems to be your real concern and it's one we all share. So hopefully with more depth and players with upside, Fangio himself may start to scheme more aggressively as well which in turn, can help the secondary.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 28, 2013 at 9:57 AM ]
I don't think Brooks played all that well this season. After the interception in the Saints game he disappeared til the Falcons playoff game.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
You can insult my intelligence all you want. Your just a homer that's ignorant.

It's, you're.

Try to point out that PFF has him highly rated, that he's actually one of the best STRONG SIDE LB's in the league, and you're not just a "homer," you're an "ignorant homer." Hoooooookay!

Originally posted by lamontb:
I don't think Brooks played all that well this season. After the interception in the Saints game he disappeared til the Falcons playoff game.

Well, we've got your perception and we've got PFF's analysis. Guess which one I'm going to hang my hat on.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You've pretty much listed all WILL LBers in the 3-4...doing their jobs blitzing from the backside of the QB while the other front 7 players aid in this scheme; to "attack." Pittsburgh was the ideal but they scheme VERY differently than Fangio. Both OLB's in the Steelers scheme are rotated often and attack behind the LOS from various positions. We play very vanilla under Fangio. You're issue isn't with Brooks. It's with Fangio. This issue (and the lack of depth and rotation the past two years) seems to be your real concern and it's one we all share. So hopefully with more depth and players with upside, Fangio himself may start to scheme more aggressively as well which in turn, can help the secondary.


No, what I did was list 3-4 olb combos. So you can't tell me that woodley, harrison, houston, ali, kerrigan, orakpo, ware and spencer all play the same position. Matthews started his career on the strongside and still plays there from time to time, unless if I'm mistaken suggs did the same. For what it's worth my thinking was the right side of the defense was the strongside, because that's the way the offense is, but it is indeed the left side of the defense because that is where the tight end usually lines up. I should've known that. Von miller also usually comes off the tight end side and dumerville came off of the blind side.

While brooks and mac might have had a sack a piece in the superbowl we only generated 4 sacks thru the entire playoffs. That is terrible. Aldon smith had more sacks against the bears by himself than our entire d had in the playoffs. True the bears pass protection is terrible but still.

LOL how many times did brooks play dt? Your suggesting that brooks takes on more roles for our defense than any other player. That simply is not the case. Patrick Willis does the most in that regard. Like I stated before Brooks is mediocre in pass coverage and in getting after the qb, true he has to account for the tight end and chip him off the line, but I've listed guys at his position that do the same thing and were more productive.

"TFL (which are like sacks), knock down passes, pick-6's, clutch plays," For one aldon smith made a lot more clutch plays in the regular season than brooks did. I don't see brooks or mac bat down a ton of balls, and he had one pick six. Tfl is the only stat I didn't look up but I gurantee you brooks isn't in the top 10 for olb. Although the positions of sam and will are different, like you said guys are interchangable. Aparently you guys are seeing something that I'm not. He still is the worst lb on the team.