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*Strongside Pass Rush

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Well here's the thing, we are a very young team like buck said. So you would think we would progress and not regress. That wasn't the case, and although I know our secondary needs an upgrade, I also think we needed to bolster our pass rush. As far as stats go, I really didn't think I had to show you guys how much of a dump our defense took from last year compared to the previous because all of you guys are bright guys for the most part. And also how bad our pass rush was when the smith brothers went down. It was pretty obvious when Wilson made us look stupid or when ryan lit us up, or when flaco looked like Montana on that throw to boldin and the rest of the game really. I don't know where to go to find a stat like that however to see if the qbs indeed had more time to get the ball off.

Hard to progress when you have an exceptional year...more likely to taper off a bit, which is what happened. If you will note--the CBs were much less agressive the second year of the Harbaugh regime and that may have made a difference with the pass rush...the QB getting openings earlier.

Wilson's scrambling ability is another factor that can be partly addressed by substituting younger, fresher legs during the game...so you are correct in the need for better back ups. And, as mentioned by GNielsen, being patient from the outside rushers will help keep Wilson in the pocket. Over pursuit might have been a factor.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
A defense can ALWAYS use more sacks - no question about it. And if Lemonier proves to be an upgrade, that will be fantastic. But, I guess I'm more impressed with his sacks than you are, because there were only 10 other linebackers in the league with more sacks and a few of those guys were in the 7 to 8 sack range. And, Brooks, who is very big and fast, is really one of the best OLB's in the league at setting the edge and playing the run - you really can't think of many times last season when guys got by him on the outside. Look at Clay Matthews, for example. Yes, he got 11 sacks, 4.5 more than Brooks, but teams were running right at him all season and GB had a very bad defense. In the playoffs, the Niners ran right at him over and over - a team just can't do that against Ahmed Brooks. So, I think you have to look at his all around production as a linebacker. He plays on the same team with Aldon Smith and the two best ILB's in the league, so it's easy to forget that he could be the best linebacker on the team for any number of NFL franchises.

I think that's fair and astute.
  • buck
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Considering that Ahmad Brooks is an All Pro linebacker, it is a more than reasonable deduction.

If I remember correctly, the players, and maybe the coaches, vote for the All Pro team. Is that right?

Pro Football Focus has Ahmad Brooks listed as the 5th best 3-4 outside linebacker in 2012.
[ Edited by buck on May 26, 2013 at 4:48 PM ]
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 5,720
Does anyone else on here think there was a problem with our weakside passrush?
Just partially. They're (RayMac/Brooks) more than adequate... they're good, just not great.
Not Brooks nor RayMAc getting unseated by any of our rooks, not this year. Also, neither are horrendous and BTW, Wicket is an Ewok, even a Jedi would have a problem chasing down Wicket!!

GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE
Aldon is a beast and would still be very good on any other team. Did it help him to play alongside J.Smith? Of course, but only a bias dip$h!t would say that he got most of his sacks/pressures "all because of J. Smith"

I like/appreciate J. Smith as much as any other Niner fan, but I am not sure if I "love Justin's nuts"... I've never seen them before, but then again, I'm really not into guys' nuts

As I have mentioned before, as well as many others, the depth on the d-line was pretty much a non-factor (especially in the post-season). Most importantly, it didn't help much with Justin/Aldon Smith playing with injuries that would require surgery after the SB.

The problem was not as easy as just to pinpoint the issue on one thing, one/two players or position(s)...
[ Edited by LVJay on May 26, 2013 at 9:15 PM ]
Originally posted by buck:
Considering that Ahmad Brooks is an All Pro linebacker, it is a more than reasonable deduction.

If I remember correctly, the players, and maybe the coaches, vote for the All Pro team. Is that right?

Pro Football Focus has Ahmad Brooks listed as the 5th best 3-4 outside linebacker in 2012.

That's pretty good for a strong side rusher, especially considering that he was a groomed m/ilb..
Also might I add, that the fact that he wasn't exploited, nor was he tricked many times last year should shine some light on his fortitude and competency. He's an all around solid, smart and tough player. Both tangibly and intangibly a model 49er.
[ Edited by bdub2588 on May 26, 2013 at 11:19 PM ]
  • SaksV
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Aldon Smith and Justin Smith play on the weak-side primarily so no, we don't need to upgrade. How would we be able to upgrade that side? Sign Reggie White and Derrick Thomas?
I think with the addition of Lemonier, Fleming, and Johnson -- plus Brooks and Haralson, with Aldon on the weak side -- Fangio will bring more heat this season. That's a good combo of guys to go after the qb if Fangio decides to. Strong side OLB aren't asked to go after the qb as much since they have to account for more running plays to the strong side and the TE going out for passing plays on that side. The 2 most underrated guys on the defense --Ray McDonald and Brooks-- because they can't afford to be glamorous like the 2 Smiths on the weak side to go after the qb as often. Fangio appreciates Ray and Brooks a lot, even if some fans don't.
another dumb thread about ahmad brooks. you do know there's more to football than sacks rights? but you probably don't. so do yourself a favor, and watch some football this year, and you will see that more things happen on defense than just sacks.
[ Edited by TheG0RE49er on May 27, 2013 at 9:38 AM ]
Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
another dumb thread about ahmad brooks. you do know there's more to football than sacks rights? but you probably don't. so do yourself a favor, and watch some football this year, and you will see that more things happen on defense than just sacks.

This thread was headed down hill the minute the OP didn't know Brooks/McDonald don't even play on the weakside.
Originally posted by TheG0RE49er:
another dumb thread about ahmad brooks. you do know there's more to football than sacks rights? but you probably don't. so do yourself a favor, and watch some football this year, and you will see that more things happen on defense than just sacks.


You can insult my intelligence all you want. Your just a homer that's ignorant. You like every 49er fan (including myself) likes to think almost everyone on the team is a top 10 player. We have the best left side of the line in the league and possibly the best right side as well, we have a top 10 rb, top 10 qb, top 10 wideout, top 10 tight end, probably the best backup qb, rb, wr and te combo in the league. (this is last year's team I'm talking about) We have the best Weakside lb/end combo in the league(sorry for that HUGE mistake), we have one of the best safety tandems, the best ilb tandem, and on and on. If that was the case than we should've smoke atl and Baltimore regardless of our injuries. Remember Baltimore was banged up too. Obviously there is a lot more to football, as a left outside backer you have to be able to cover the tight end at times, set the edge and get after the qb. To me ahmad brooks is only good at one thing and that is setting the edge. Ray Mac isn't a top 10 defensive end either. To all those out there too that said ahmad brooks is a top 5 strongside 3-4 linebacker. Remember that the 4-3 is used by more teams than the 3-4 so take that into account. Saying that ahmad brooks is a top 5 3-4 strongside backer isn't as impressive. Same thing can be said about ray mac.

Ok I've heard over and over that Brooks is a second team all-pro. I would be willing to put money that brooks doesn't see another pro bowl. He wasn't even a top 5 player on his own defense last year, Willis Bowman the smiths and Golston all were more crucial to the team. I would be willing to argue that a case can be made for brown and whitner too.

Let me tell you that I am not a stat guy, and loved when Justin smith said stats are for losers so that is why I don't typically throw them out there. But for those of you that are stat nerds let me key you in on a couple things.

First off when you matched up against the 49ers it was hard to run the ball to the right, but it was a nightmare running up the gut and to the left unless you are marshawn lynch. I'm sure if someone pulled up a stat it would show that teams gained a lot more yards running to the right than the left. Doubt I need to argue that.

Secondly when the smiths weren't at 100% more was required of other people on defense. Nobody stepped up. We got spanked in the second half of the patriot game, spanked against seattle, lit up by ryan and company, and then finished off by the ultimate embarrassment of losing the superbowl. You can say they played solid all you want but solid wasn't good enough. I'm pretty sure all of you are aware of the outrageous numbers teams put up against us after those guys were injured so I won't waste your time posting that.

Lastly I will however post numbers of other 3-4 outside linebacker combos and individuals that have better numbers than brooks for what it's worth.

First off the All Stars

Matthews
161 total tackles 29.5 6 FF 4 Int 10-12
last year he put up 43 tackles 13 sacks and a FF playing through an injury

Suggs
138 tt 25 sacks 9 FF 2 Int 10-11
Paul Kruger had more sacks than brooks and probably a better year all around. Paul Kruger is overrated and overpaid.
Second the combos

Pitt
Woodley 170 tt 35 sacks 6 FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
77 tt 13 sacks 1 FF 2 Int while battling an injury 2 years
To me Brooks is a poor mans Woodley and it's funny cuz Woodley puts up similar numbers battling an injury

Harrison 280 tt 36.5 sacks 18FF 3 Int pre injury 3 years
129 tt 15 sacks 4 FF 2 years thru injury

Dallas
Ware
180 tt 46.5 sacks 9 FF 3 years
Spencer 224 tt 22 sacks 6 FF 3 years

KC
Houston 122 tt 15.5 sacks 2 FF 1 Int 2 years
Ali 168 tt 25.5 sacks 9FF 3 years.

SF
brooks 96 tt 13.5 sacks 3 FF 1 Int 2 years
smith 103 tt 33.5 sacks 5 FF 1 Int 2 years

Wash
Kerrigan
117 tt 16 sacks 6 FF 2 Int 2 years
Orakpo
165 tt 28.5 sacks 5 FF 3 years.

The packers would've been in the discussion had perry stayed healthy. All I'm saying is brooks looks to me like the least productive of the group, and although he's a good player I still think we can do a lot better. Same with McDonald, it's unfair to compare him to watt because they play differently but watt does so much more for your defense. You have to adjust the way you throw because he batts balls out of the air, had more than 20 sacks at a 3-4 defensive end which is absurd and was still formidable against the run.

I'm glad the webzone isn't running the team because they don't believe in change. If it ain't broke don't fix it... maybe but it can be improved upon and that's why they brought in the competiton.
who the heck is golston
Originally posted by Allx9er:
who the heck is golston

vernon golston :) he played safety for us.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
vernon golston :) he played safety for us.

That was a joke right ?
Originally posted by NinersPlusOne:
That was a joke right ?

yes. vernon golston is spelled as so and dashon goldson is spelled differently. I used the wrong spelling, they are very nitpicky around here.