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*Strongside Pass Rush

Can we not blame Ahmed Brooks for Russell Wilson's agonizingly long scrambles? How about we just acknowledge that Wilson is a fabulous scrambler on the level of a modern Fran Tarkenton. Yes, they're going to have to figure out how to eliminate those 16 second scrambles, but blaming Brooks for them is pretty weak. Russell Wilson is a small, extremely quick player who has one of the fastest 10 yard splits ever recorded for a QB. Brooks is 6'4", 255 lbs. Of course Russell Wilson can juke Brooks in space. Is there anyone in the league that Wilson CAN'T juke in space. Come on. The thing they'll probably try to do is scheme to try to prevent him from every getting into space.
Originally posted by buck:
Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side.

No, I do not think that Tank and Lemonier will take over or Brooks and McDonald this year.

Ahmad Brooks made ALL PRO last year. I highly doubt that a rookie, Corey Lemonier, replaces him this year.

Horrendous is extremely harsh, don't you think.

If you take the time to check the sack stats for a strong side 3-4 outside linebacker, such as Ahmad Brooks, I am positive that you will find that 6.5 is above average.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side. Our weak side pass rush, with Aldon and Justin Smith doing the heavy lifting is excellent. The only problem we had on the weak side was lack of depth, and with the drafting of Carradine and Lemonier the team has made a clear effort to improve that depth.


I am pretty sure that that guy from Green Bay, Clay Mathews, has been moved to the weak side. DeMarcus Ware also plays on the weak side. So, the correct comparison for them would be Aldon Smith, and not Ahmad Brooks.

Our line backers are an exceptional unit. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, NaVorrro Bowman were 1st team All PRO last year.
Ahmad Brooks, the weak link in our line backing corps was only a second team All Pro.

Four starting linebackers, four members of the ALL PRO team, not bad, not bad at all.

And there is reason to think that the unit will get even better.

Brooks and Bowman have only been a starter for two years. Remember than prior to the arrival of Harbaugh and Fangio, they were only back-ups.
Last year was Aldon Smith's first year as a starting outside linebacker. In 2011, Aldon Smith did not start a single game.
Patrick Willis, a five-year starter, is the old man of this unit, and he is only 28 years old.

Not only our starting linebackers an exceptional unit, but they are also a young unit. As they gain experience, both as individuals and as a unit, they will get better.

To say that this line backing unit has the chance to become the best line backing unit to ever play the game is not hyperbole.

It is going to be very hard, perhaps next to impossible, for Corey Lemonier to beat out Ahmad Brooks next year.

Last year, we had no real depth at outside linebacker.
Next year, Parys Haralson and Corey Lemonier should provide the team with a solid rotation.


Originally posted by buck:
Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side.

No, I do not think that Tank and Lemonier will take over or Brooks and McDonald this year.

Ahmad Brooks made ALL PRO last year. I highly doubt that a rookie, Corey Lemonier, replaces him this year.

Horrendous is extremely harsh, don't you think.

If you take the time to check the sack stats for a strong side 3-4 outside linebacker, such as Ahmad Brooks, I am positive that you will find that 6.5 is above average.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side. Our weak side pass rush, with Aldon and Justin Smith doing the heavy lifting is excellent. The only problem we had on the weak side was lack of depth, and with the drafting of Carradine and Lemonier the team has made a clear effort to improve that depth.


I am pretty sure that that guy from Green Bay, Clay Mathews, has been moved to the weak side. DeMarcus Ware also plays on the weak side. So, the correct comparison for them would be Aldon Smith, and not Ahmad Brooks.

Our line backers are an exceptional unit. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, NaVorrro Bowman were 1st team All PRO last year.
Ahmad Brooks, the weak link in our line backing corps was only a second team All Pro.

Four starting linebackers, four members of the ALL PRO team, not bad, not bad at all.

And there is reason to think that the unit will get even better.

Brooks and Bowman have only been a starter for two years. Remember than prior to the arrival of Harbaugh and Fangio, they were only back-ups.
Last year was Aldon Smith's first year as a starting outside linebacker. In 2011, Aldon Smith did not start a single game.
Patrick Willis, a five-year starter, is the old man of this unit, and he is only 28 years old.

Not only our starting linebackers an exceptional unit, but they are also a young unit. As they gain experience, both as individuals and as a unit, they will get better.

To say that this line backing unit has the chance to become the best line backing unit to ever play the game is not hyperbole.

It is going to be very hard, perhaps next to impossible, for Corey Lemonier to beat out Ahmad Brooks next year.

Last year, we had no real depth at outside linebacker.
Next year, Parys Haralson and Corey Lemonier should provide the team with a solid rotation.


Ok I stand corrected about strongside weakside. But let me correct you because Willis is not the old man of the group, Brooks is. Willis might have more experience but brooks is 29. 6.5 might be "above average" but above average didn't win us a superbowl now did it? Our pass rush sure wasn't "above average" when the smiths were injured. Ahmad brooks might be an "above average" player but he hasn't recorded double digits sacks in a season and that's not impressing me. Horrendous was too harsh absolutely, but I don't think brooks is anything more than good, and McDonald too. Lemenoir hit 30 reps at the combine while running a 4.6 40, and tank has an amazing get off, if he can add 15 pounds like they said and keep the speed he will be a force. When we were talking about Matthews somebody else brought him up as an example not me. I was merely using ware as the example of a very well rounded olb. Even though the positions are different they are also very similar. Both require you to cover tight ends, hold the edge, and get after the qb. If we are talking about players that have or still play on the strongside that have posted double digits sacks than I can name a few from recent memory. Von Miller, Terrell Suggs, Clay Matthews, and Lamar Woodley all come to mind.

The fact is that our defense truly let us down more than our offense did this past year. Sure we didn't score on the last drive when we had the chance but kaep exceeded anyone's expectations. We knew that harlson was coming back from injury and is a good player but still opted to draft another potential outside linebacker. We also know that harlson isn't a pass rushing specialist and plays very similar to brooks. Aldon Smith came in last year and started as a 3rd down specialist and eventually got more and more reps. We might see the same thing happen with lemonier. He has long arms and played defensive end in college, sound familiar? I believe we traded up to get him for a reason. I know I'm in the minority but that's my opinion. Brooks made Russel Wilson look like fran tarkenton .
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Can we not blame Ahmed Brooks for Russell Wilson's agonizingly long scrambles? How about we just acknowledge that Wilson is a fabulous scrambler on the level of a modern Fran Tarkenton. Yes, they're going to have to figure out how to eliminate those 16 second scrambles, but blaming Brooks for them is pretty weak. Russell Wilson is a small, extremely quick player who has one of the fastest 10 yard splits ever recorded for a QB. Brooks is 6'4", 255 lbs. Of course Russell Wilson can juke Brooks in space. Is there anyone in the league that Wilson CAN'T juke in space. Come on. The thing they'll probably try to do is scheme to try to prevent him from every getting into space.


yes their names are Patrick willis and Navarro bowman.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
JimDrinkAMiller--Would be nice if you provided comparisons (stats) with your analysis. Brooks and McDonald seemed very consistent the past two year, even while the Smith's were injured. But as it's a team sport, it's impossible to assess blame only to one player, or even two--injured or not.

It would also be interesting to compare stats like how long opponent QBs held the ball. Were they allowed more time to pick apart the secondary? Or did the secondary fall short?

The niners were lights out against the run two years ago, so it would have been almost impossible for them to replicate those stats last year...though they were still very good. The biggest drop off seems to be with turn overs.

Well here's the thing, we are a very young team like buck said. So you would think we would progress and not regress. That wasn't the case, and although I know our secondary needs an upgrade, I also think we needed to bolster our pass rush. As far as stats go, I really didn't think I had to show you guys how much of a dump our defense took from last year compared to the previous because all of you guys are bright guys for the most part. And also how bad our pass rush was when the smith brothers went down. It was pretty obvious when Wilson made us look stupid or when ryan lit us up, or when flaco looked like Montana on that throw to boldin and the rest of the game really. I don't know where to go to find a stat like that however to see if the qbs indeed had more time to get the ball off.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
JimDrinkAMiller--Would be nice if you provided comparisons (stats) with your analysis. Brooks and McDonald seemed very consistent the past two year, even while the Smith's were injured. But as it's a team sport, it's impossible to assess blame only to one player, or even two--injured or not.

It would also be interesting to compare stats like how long opponent QBs held the ball. Were they allowed more time to pick apart the secondary? Or did the secondary fall short?

The niners were lights out against the run two years ago, so it would have been almost impossible for them to replicate those stats last year...though they were still very good. The biggest drop off seems to be with turn overs.

Well here's the thing, we are a very young team like buck said. So you would think we would progress and not regress. That wasn't the case, and although I know our secondary needs an upgrade, I also think we needed to bolster our pass rush. As far as stats go, I really didn't think I had to show you guys how much of a dump our defense took from last year compared to the previous because all of you guys are bright guys for the most part. And also how bad our pass rush was when the smith brothers went down. It was pretty obvious when Wilson made us look stupid or when ryan lit us up, or when flaco looked like Montana on that throw to boldin and the rest of the game really. I don't know where to go to find a stat like that however to see if the qbs indeed had more time to get the ball off.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Can we not blame Ahmed Brooks for Russell Wilson's agonizingly long scrambles? How about we just acknowledge that Wilson is a fabulous scrambler on the level of a modern Fran Tarkenton. Yes, they're going to have to figure out how to eliminate those 16 second scrambles, but blaming Brooks for them is pretty weak. Russell Wilson is a small, extremely quick player who has one of the fastest 10 yard splits ever recorded for a QB. Brooks is 6'4", 255 lbs. Of course Russell Wilson can juke Brooks in space. Is there anyone in the league that Wilson CAN'T juke in space. Come on. The thing they'll probably try to do is scheme to try to prevent him from every getting into space.

So you agree that 16 second scrambles are ridiculous right? Do we just say hey wilson is a heck of a qb and there's nothing we can do about that? no we try to adapt just like seattle is trying to do with us with the signing of their defensive ends. We'll see what happens. I just want to see our d play more like the 11-12 version and not the 12-13 version, cuz our offense might be better than it was last year just because kaep will be the starter from week 1, but crabtree going down hurts. more than people think
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
So you agree that 16 second scrambles are ridiculous right? Do we just say hey wilson is a heck of a qb and there's nothing we can do about that? no we try to adapt just like seattle is trying to do with us with the signing of their defensive ends. We'll see what happens. I just want to see our d play more like the 11-12 version and not the 12-13 version, cuz our offense might be better than it was last year just because kaep will be the starter from week 1, but crabtree going down hurts. more than people think

It would probably help if you stopped pretending you have some special insight that the entire Niners staff isn't aware of. No, like I posted, what they will probably do is scheme to try to prevent Wilson from getting into space. For example, in Tarkenton's case, the Steelers didn't panic and rush to change their lineup. They tried to hold the edges of the pocket to keep him from rolling out too often and then collapse it from the inside while at times using ILB's to stunt through gaps and charge Tarkenton right up the middle. This is what I expect to see this season from the Niners defense and they already have the personnel to try that approach. And Seattle signed DE's because they had no depth on the outside of their line and not very much pass rush. The Niners signed inside guys because they had little depth there, but they also signed an outside prospect in Lemonier, so I don't see the comparative problem you seem to see.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,656
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:

Ok I stand corrected about strongside weakside. But let me correct you because Willis is not the old man of the group, Brooks is. Willis might have more experience but brooks is 29. 6.5 might be "above average" but above average didn't win us a superbowl now did it? Our pass rush sure wasn't "above average" when the smiths were injured. Ahmad brooks might be an "above average" player but he hasn't recorded double digits sacks in a season and that's not impressing me. Horrendous was too harsh absolutely, but I don't think brooks is anything more than good, and McDonald too. Lemenoir hit 30 reps at the combine while running a 4.6 40, and tank has an amazing get off, if he can add 15 pounds like they said and keep the speed he will be a force. When we were talking about Matthews somebody else brought him up as an example not me. I was merely using ware as the example of a very well rounded olb. Even though the positions are different they are also very similar. Both require you to cover tight ends, hold the edge, and get after the qb. If we are talking about players that have or still play on the strongside that have posted double digits sacks than I can name a few from recent memory. Von Miller, Terrell Suggs, Clay Matthews, and Lamar Woodley all come to mind.

The fact is that our defense truly let us down more than our offense did this past year. Sure we didn't score on the last drive when we had the chance but kaep exceeded anyone's expectations. We knew that harlson was coming back from injury and is a good player but still opted to draft another potential outside linebacker. We also know that harlson isn't a pass rushing specialist and plays very similar to brooks. Aldon Smith came in last year and started as a 3rd down specialist and eventually got more and more reps. We might see the same thing happen with lemonier. He has long arms and played defensive end in college, sound familiar? I believe we traded up to get him for a reason. I know I'm in the minority but that's my opinion. Brooks made Russel Wilson look like fran tarkenton .

Thanks. I made a mistake on the ages.

At the end of the year and in the play offs, our pass rush was debilitated due to the surgery-requiring injuries to the Smith Brothers.

The team added depth in this draft at DE and OLB when we drafted Carradine, Dial, and Lemonier.
We clearly needed more depth on the front seven.

If Lemonier is good enough to one the starteing outside linebackers, more power to him. I was happy we drafted him.

We disagree, apparently, on Brooks, but no big deal. I am not going to take up your time and mine arguing with you abot Brooks.

We will see what happens next year.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Can we not blame Ahmed Brooks for Russell Wilson's agonizingly long scrambles? How about we just acknowledge that Wilson is a fabulous scrambler on the level of a modern Fran Tarkenton. Yes, they're going to have to figure out how to eliminate those 16 second scrambles, but blaming Brooks for them is pretty weak. Russell Wilson is a small, extremely quick player who has one of the fastest 10 yard splits ever recorded for a QB. Brooks is 6'4", 255 lbs. Of course Russell Wilson can juke Brooks in space. Is there anyone in the league that Wilson CAN'T juke in space. Come on. The thing they'll probably try to do is scheme to try to prevent him from every getting into space.

It also didn't help matters that he was chasing Wilson around on a wet field.
  • cools
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,314
Lemonier coming in with fresh legs for Brooks on occasion will help our left side pass rush alot

Carridine may come is as a left side DE alot too

Last year Offenses started to rotate the pocket to the right side to avoid the Smiths
I think Baalke may have fixed that problem.
[ Edited by cools on May 26, 2013 at 11:57 AM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Statistics aren't just some magical thing that gets spit out based on a player's ability.

For example, let's say you have three Reggie White's and one Justin Smith on a line. Justin Smith might get to the quarterback a step behind one of the Reggie Whites; he'll never quite get there before a White does, because he's a step slower. So he finishes with 1.5 sacks on the year, and all the Whites pick up the rest of the sack numbers. Does this mean Justin Smith is a "1.5 sack a year guy"? That would be completely wrong.

If Brooks played in Aldon's spot and there was no Aldon or J Smith on the team, he would pick up much better numbers, but our defense would not be as good.

Brooks is solid, hence why they PAID THE MAN.
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Brooks is solid, hence why they PAID THE MAN.

there was 2 contracts given out that left me shaking my head and they were paid around the same time. one was brooks and the other one was rogers.. if they take a pay cut next year I wouldnt be so upset but I think the money would be better spent on kaep crabs or aldon. With crabs injury playing into his next contract, there's a very good chance we can now keep all 3 if we save money elsewhere. Where most people see whitner as a casualty, I see brooks and rogers as the first to go.
Originally posted by cools:
Lemonier coming in with fresh legs for Brooks on occasion will help our left side pass rush alot

Carridine may come is as a left side DE alot too

Last year Offenses started to rotate the pocket to the right side to avoid the Smiths
I think Baalke may have fixed that problem.

+1
Originally posted by GNielsen:
It would probably help if you stopped pretending you have some special insight that the entire Niners staff isn't aware of. No, like I posted, what they will probably do is scheme to try to prevent Wilson from getting into space. For example, in Tarkenton's case, the Steelers didn't panic and rush to change their lineup. They tried to hold the edges of the pocket to keep him from rolling out too often and then collapse it from the inside while at times using ILB's to stunt through gaps and charge Tarkenton right up the middle. This is what I expect to see this season from the Niners defense and they already have the personnel to try that approach. And Seattle signed DE's because they had no depth on the outside of their line and not very much pass rush. The Niners signed inside guys because they had little depth there, but they also signed an outside prospect in Lemonier, so I don't see the comparative problem you seem to see.


How am I acting like I have a special insight the 49ers aren't aware of? They are very aware of it that is why they drafted these players. The type of defense that your talking about would leave too many guys focused on Wilson much like teams are with kaep. The problem is lynch is superior to gore and if gore can do as well as he did with teams having to keep an eye on kaep than lynch is going to explode when teams do that with Wilson. See here is where I think your wrong in your assessment, you see the signings and drafting as depth, I see it as competition. Let the best man win, and your acting like there's no way either one could do it when you haven't seen what they're capable of. There is no reason the ends the seahawks signed can't start, plus doesn't seattle have an end coming off an injury? I could be wrong about that.

To some it up. I'm not saying brooks and mac are weaknesses in the defense, Rogers would be my choice, but I am saying that I don't think they are strengths either. Could tank or lemenoir better this year? maybe yes maybe no. I know that we probably have the best d line coach in tomsula and to think tank could see some starting action isn't out of the question. If lemonier has the talent than he could pick up pretty quickly from the other 3 lbs and coaches. thanks for a good debate though, I know I'm out of my league here.