There are 146 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

*Strongside Pass Rush

The niners need to use the NYG's method of drafting pass rushers and developing them to keep two or three in reserve or on the job training. The niners have been very fortunate to keep Brooks and A Smith healthy (or relatively).
I think you made a valid point, they did draft a lot of big guys to develope them but there's no way well see lemonier take over for AB this year. It was very apperant that our d line guys were exhausted by the time playoff time came around, the JS injury didn't help. I think we'll see a lot more Tank Carrodine this season than anyone else in this draft class (yes that includes offense too). I think he's an instant upgrade over McDonald on 3rd n long situation, though he'll have to prove it. The way Aldon smith gets right after the quarterback at the snap, a lot of times makes the qb scramble n from what I've seen that's when tank really shines and takes the QB down for a sack.
Tank is an instant upgrade to RayMac???? What world are we in where a player just drafted out of College is already better then an established starter? I really doubt Tank was drafter to develop as a replacement for Ray anyways, last I heard Justin was the one thinking of retiring in the near future.
[ Edited by LoneWolf on May 25, 2013 at 6:36 PM ]
The thing is, McDonald and Brooks are very disciplined at what they do. They are fantastic against the run. They may not be the best pass rushers, but they consistently put pressure. The last thing you want is over aggressive pass rushers who cannot defend the run.
Originally posted by 60sfan:
The thing is, McDonald and Brooks are very disciplined at what they do. They are fantastic against the run. They may not be the best pass rushers, but they consistently put pressure. The last thing you want is over aggressive pass rushers who cannot defend the run.

This while Ray may not always get to the qb he does consistantly get in the qb's face and has the strength to occupy a lineman and blocker leaving open hits on RB's for Brooks.
I think we kept our pass rush intact, and improved it actually.

OLB: Aldon, Brooks, Haralson, Lemonier, and Fleming (OLB/ILB)
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Originally posted by 60sfan:
The thing is, McDonald and Brooks are very disciplined at what they do. They are fantastic against the run. They may not be the best pass rushers, but they consistently put pressure. The last thing you want is over aggressive pass rushers who cannot defend the run.

This while Ray may not always get to the qb he does consistantly get in the qb's face and has the strength to occupy a lineman and blocker leaving open hits on RB's for Brooks.


A case can be made that just that any nfl dlineman "gets in the qb's face". Yes they are good against the run, no doubt but they are also just about as good as they're ever going to get. topped out. Ahmad Brooks is closing in on 30 and has never been known for having a quick first step off the ball. Mcdonald isn't far behind. You can't tell me that there isn't a chance that lemonier or tank takes over by the end of the season, and not due to an injury. We took both of these guys in the early rounds and traded up to get lemonier. Lemonier and tank have the measurables to be better than brooks and McDonald but it is gonna take time no doubt.

The fact is we lost the superbowl. What does every 49er fan point to as one of the main excuses? Well Justin and Aldon weren't healthy. Well if Justin and Aldon weren't healthy then it's up to other guys to pick up the slack and make plays... That didn't happen. Ray Mcdonald is no JJ Watt and Ahmad brooks is no Von Miller, and that doesn't mean corey lemonier or tank carradine will be, but you never know. You do know however know what Brooks and Mcdonald are capable of, and IMO you've already seen the best of it. So for you to tell me that nobody is going to take over for these guys is just you being a homer and thinking we're good enough. Which we might have been the last 2 years but we can always get better.

One last thought. Look at last season's offense and defense compared to the previous year. Who took a step forward and who took a step back? That can't all be attributed to 2 players either because their injuries weren't until later in the season.
Like the late great Mac Dre said. Out with the old in with the new, this ain't 2k2, whatchu gon do? lol

Players are evolving Qbs can run. Rbs can catch out of the backfield. Wrs can plays Rb. Defensive Lineman can get after the qb, stop the run and bat balls out of the air. Ray McDonald doesn't do 2 of those things very well. Brooks isn't the greatest in coverage and isn't the greatest pass rusher.

Can't wait for the season! Go 49ers
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
also how exacly did we get bigger in the middle? tank is smaller than mcdonald and dorsey if he is the starter is smaller than soap was.

I've read that the thinking is that Carradine is actually bigger than MacDonald was when he started out and has a body type that will probably end up a little bigger than MacDonald, so think Tank will end up heavier. Dial is already 320 and should get heavier, so I see him as the middle guy. But, remember that they don't really play the standard 3-4 that often and Dorsey at around 300 along with Carradine who is up to about 285 are there to provide more depth for rotation. But, I think people are overlooking Dial, who is already huge at 6'5", 320 lbs.

I guess the problem I have with your concerns is that if you look at the NIner defense, you're first problem would not be with the front seven. The only problem with the front was depth and it looks like they've addressed that. Will Lemonier end up as another sack-man as a bookend to Aldon Smith. We can hope so, but he's also got to stop the run.
The niners have a top 3 defense. Who fin cares?! The niners got younger and deeper in the front 7 in the draft. Lets worry about whos going to catch passes this year.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,651
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Does anyone else on here think there was a problem with our weakside passrush? and do you see tank and lemoneir taking over for brooks and mcdonald this year? I think mcdonald and brooks are stout against the run but I think their pass rushing ability is horendous. The one play that sticks out in my mind is when russel wilson scrambled around for like 2 years and brooks kept falling all over the field.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side.

No, I do not think that Tank and Lemonier will take over or Brooks and McDonald this year.

Ahmad Brooks made ALL PRO last year. I highly doubt that a rookie, Corey Lemonier, replaces him this year.

Horrendous is extremely harsh, don't you think.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Well, Ahmed Brooks has recorded 23.5 sacks over the last four seasons. That's not insignificant. It's 10 more than Julian Peterson recorded in his last four years with the team and lots of fans around here seem to think Peterson was an awesome sack-master. Let's keep in mind that players who get close to 20 sacks in a season are not very common, so comparing Brooks to Aldon Smith is not exactly fair. Aldon Smith is a truly amazing sack-man on the order of a Charles Haley or Fred Dean.

Well it's not insignificant, but I'm not impressed either. He had 6.5 sacks last year, and that's not very much. I realize that he is a better run stopper than a pass rusher, but I think he can be upgraded. So do you agree that our weakside passrush does need to be upgraded? or is it fine as is?

If you take the time to check the sack stats for a strong side 3-4 outside linebacker, such as Ahmad Brooks, I am positive that you will find that 6.5 is above average.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side. Our weak side pass rush, with Aldon and Justin Smith doing the heavy lifting is excellent. The only problem we had on the weak side was lack of depth, and with the drafting of Carradine and Lemonier the team has made a clear effort to improve that depth.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
when I say fine as is I mean do you think there needs to be a change at the position from last season. Sorry I guess I need to clarify that, because IMO brooks and mcdonald aren't fine AS IS. So your saying the packers threw all that money at a guy that cannot stop the run? you act like brooks is the best olb run stopper in the league. I've seen guys juke him out or run around him and even run him over at times. When I think of a dominant olb I think of a demarcus ware. A guy that can do everything, and brooks is not that guy. Neither is aldon smith but I can see aldon smith being that guy, just not brooks.

I am pretty sure that that guy from Green Bay, Clay Mathews, has been moved to the weak side. DeMarcus Ware also plays on the weak side. So, the correct comparison for them would be Aldon Smith, and not Ahmad Brooks.

Our line backers are an exceptional unit. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, NaVorrro Bowman were 1st team All PRO last year.
Ahmad Brooks, the weak link in our line backing corps was only a second team All Pro.

Four starting linebackers, four members of the ALL PRO team, not bad, not bad at all.

And there is reason to think that the unit will get even better.

Brooks and Bowman have only been a starter for two years. Remember than prior to the arrival of Harbaugh and Fangio, they were only back-ups.
Last year was Aldon Smith's first year as a starting outside linebacker. In 2011, Aldon Smith did not start a single game.
Patrick Willis, a five-year starter, is the old man of this unit, and he is only 28 years old.

Not only our starting linebackers an exceptional unit, but they are also a young unit. As they gain experience, both as individuals and as a unit, they will get better.

To say that this line backing unit has the chance to become the best line backing unit to ever play the game is not hyperbole.

It is going to be very hard, perhaps next to impossible, for Corey Lemonier to beat out Ahmad Brooks next year.

Last year, we had no real depth at outside linebacker.
Next year, Parys Haralson and Corey Lemonier should provide the team with a solid rotation.
[ Edited by buck on May 26, 2013 at 2:32 AM ]
JimDrinkAMiller--Would be nice if you provided comparisons (stats) with your analysis. Brooks and McDonald seemed very consistent the past two year, even while the Smith's were injured. But as it's a team sport, it's impossible to assess blame only to one player, or even two--injured or not.

It would also be interesting to compare stats like how long opponent QBs held the ball. Were they allowed more time to pick apart the secondary? Or did the secondary fall short?

The niners were lights out against the run two years ago, so it would have been almost impossible for them to replicate those stats last year...though they were still very good. The biggest drop off seems to be with turn overs.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Does anyone else on here think there was a problem with our weakside passrush? and do you see tank and lemoneir taking over for brooks and mcdonald this year? I think mcdonald and brooks are stout against the run but I think their pass rushing ability is horendous. The one play that sticks out in my mind is when russel wilson scrambled around for like 2 years and brooks kept falling all over the field.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side.

No, I do not think that Tank and Lemonier will take over or Brooks and McDonald this year.

Ahmad Brooks made ALL PRO last year. I highly doubt that a rookie, Corey Lemonier, replaces him this year.

Horrendous is extremely harsh, don't you think.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Well, Ahmed Brooks has recorded 23.5 sacks over the last four seasons. That's not insignificant. It's 10 more than Julian Peterson recorded in his last four years with the team and lots of fans around here seem to think Peterson was an awesome sack-master. Let's keep in mind that players who get close to 20 sacks in a season are not very common, so comparing Brooks to Aldon Smith is not exactly fair. Aldon Smith is a truly amazing sack-man on the order of a Charles Haley or Fred Dean.

Well it's not insignificant, but I'm not impressed either. He had 6.5 sacks last year, and that's not very much. I realize that he is a better run stopper than a pass rusher, but I think he can be upgraded. So do you agree that our weakside passrush does need to be upgraded? or is it fine as is?

If you take the time to check the sack stats for a strong side 3-4 outside linebacker, such as Ahmad Brooks, I am positive that you will find that 6.5 is above average.

Brooks and McDonald play on the strong side, not the weak side. Our weak side pass rush, with Aldon and Justin Smith doing the heavy lifting is excellent. The only problem we had on the weak side was lack of depth, and with the drafting of Carradine and Lemonier the team has made a clear effort to improve that depth.

Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
when I say fine as is I mean do you think there needs to be a change at the position from last season. Sorry I guess I need to clarify that, because IMO brooks and mcdonald aren't fine AS IS. So your saying the packers threw all that money at a guy that cannot stop the run? you act like brooks is the best olb run stopper in the league. I've seen guys juke him out or run around him and even run him over at times. When I think of a dominant olb I think of a demarcus ware. A guy that can do everything, and brooks is not that guy. Neither is aldon smith but I can see aldon smith being that guy, just not brooks.

I am pretty sure that that guy from Green Bay, Clay Mathews, has been moved to the weak side. DeMarcus Ware also plays on the weak side. So, the correct comparison for them would be Aldon Smith, and not Ahmad Brooks.

Our line backers are an exceptional unit. Aldon Smith, Patrick Willis, NaVorrro Bowman were 1st team All PRO last year.
Ahmad Brooks, the weak link in our line backing corps was only a second team All Pro.

Four starting linebackers, four members of the ALL PRO team, not bad, not bad at all.

And there is reason to think that the unit will get even better.

Brooks and Bowman have only been a starter for two years. Remember than prior to the arrival of Harbaugh and Fangio, they were only back-ups.
Last year was Aldon Smith's first year as a starting outside linebacker. In 2011, Aldon Smith did not start a single game.
Patrick Willis, a five-year starter, is the old man of this unit, and he is only 28 years old.

Not only our starting linebackers an exceptional unit, but they are also a young unit. As they gain experience, both as individuals and as a unit, they will get better.

To say that this line backing unit has the chance to become the best line backing unit to ever play the game is not hyperbole.

It is going to be very hard, perhaps next to impossible, for Corey Lemonier to beat out Ahmad Brooks next year.

Last year, we had no real depth at outside linebacker.
Next year, Parys Haralson and Corey Lemonier should provide the team with a solid rotation.


Originally posted by DaveWilcox:
The 49ers don't have a problem other than a lack of proven depth to keep the front 7 fresh.

Thanks for stating the obvious instead of overanalyzing. Nicely put.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I think we kept our pass rush intact, and improved it actually.

OLB: Aldon, Brooks, Haralson, Lemonier, and Fleming (OLB/ILB)

Adding Tank and Dorsey to the interior rotation won't hurt either.