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*Strongside Pass Rush

Originally posted by NCommand:
Sorry, missed that original question. No worries...think you're way off base on Brooks in particular but we can agree to disagree on that one. Maybe you can tell us/me what would be realistic and satisfactory numbers for a SAM OLB in our 3-4? B/c it seems like you actually have more issues with the type of 3-4 we run (Fangio - scheme) and salary cap implications down the road (which we should know by now, this FO will surely take care of it better than any team in the NFL).

Yeah, I'm very concerned and our coaching staff has a way of absolutely minimizing these. Check out this list. It's legit and it's only May/June. And genuinely, we don't truly have timetables for these guys. It appears on the surface that most will be OK by training camp but that is quite a list (even given the quality of players on that list). Hopefully, it just means that we're getting our injuries out of the way early!

http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/05/31/medical-report-a-rundown-of-14-nicked-up-niners/

PS: Thanks for the correction, yes obviously meant Dorsey not Dawson.


I really shouldn't be the one correcting people as you can see my spelling is atrocious, and I spelt goldson as golston which wouldn't even be correct if I was talking about Vernon. Again brook's numbers are satisfactory no doubt just think he can be upgraded. He is approaching 30 and isn't very fast. Rogers was in the pro-bowl in 2011 but does that mean he was a top 10 corner in the league in 11? def not in my opinion as obviously I'm not a rogers fan. I can bring up plenty of examples of people that made the pro-bowl that aren't in the top 10 at their position. Phillip Rivers comes to mind. Brooks has never reached 10 sacks and that would be fine if he made up for it with his run defense and pass coverage. His run defense is there but he can't guard these tight ends or halfbacks very well and has a hard time keeping up with faster qbs. The league is constantly changing and teams need to adapt. Will Lemonier start this year? no probably not. But can he? I don't see any reason why he couldn't. A lot of you are making it seem like it would be near impossible and that isn't the case. The same thing applies to Tank and Mac.

Look I overrate 49ers all the time. I constantly tell my friends and family that Vernon davis is probably the best tight end in the league. Even though his hands still aren't the best and neither are his numbers, he also wasn't featured very much in our pass offense during the regular season. But he is far and away the best blocker of any tight end in the league IMO. It's like having an extra offensive lineman out there. That's just the homer in me though.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Look brooks is a good player. Most fans of other teams def. underrate this guy but it seems like mostly everyone I've talked to on the zone overrates him. That's just my opinion...

For what it's worth: Brooks was the defensive MVP of the NFC Championship game in my opinion.
[ Edited by VPofCarnage on Jun 1, 2013 at 3:46 PM ]
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
Ok but who would that money be better invested in? Brooks or the other 4 guys I mentioned. Obviously 7-8 mil isn't going to sign all these players but it is probably the amount iupati or crabtree will ask for. So again I ask who would you rather pay the money to, crabtree and Iupati/aldon smith or rogers and brooks? Do you disagree that crabtree iupati and smith are all more valuable than brooks?

There is also 20 other contracts ending the same time as Crabs, Iupati, Kaep, and Aldons, not to mention cuts between now and then, I really think using the excuse of being able to sign those 4 as a reason to cut players like Brooks and Rogers is a little far fetched especially giving that after all the ending contracts we will have about 35 million in cap space to work out contracts for at least 3 of those 4 stars and fill the remaining 9-10 positions. Our front office has been complete wizards when it comes to contracts/extensions and such so dont get too worried about it unless Brooks actually shows real decline in his play, which hasn't happened yet unlike Rogers.
  • buck
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We will get the answers next year and the following year. Just have to wait.
Originally posted by buck:
We will get the answers next year and the following year. Just have to wait.

This right here is the only fact /thread...
NCommand Post #143 I think spells out what most people feel about Brooks. You can reject it if you want. But you are in the minority. I think there was another thread earlier about Brooks along the lines of who cares about this guy and isn't time he got cut, and the response was about 10-1 in favor and the thread tapered off to oblivion.

The way I look at it, Brooks had a reasonable statistical year, plus made KEY KEY plays down the stretch when his number was called. For example, grinding Ryan into the turf thereby reminding him that football is a contact sport. It may have been the single play that got us past the Falcons.

Anyone who watched the games down the stretch has a warm and fuzzy for Brooks but not for Aldon. So I think you are totally swimming upstream saying this guy is a mediocre joe who doesn't stand out with peers. That's just false. You might say he's the best option for a salary cap casualty (I don't agree) but don't paint him as a system beneficiary. He helps make the system. If he had less snaps, he would make it better.

As far as the other part of your argument about Mac, I think he was more impactful in 2011 than 2012 and I attribute that in no small part to Fangio deciding that -- in a league where offensive lineman are physically inflating at 5% a year -- that 290 lb lineman can still take 1000 snaps no problem. I think that has to change. I think Mac is a good player. Does he give you the salary concerns Brooks does? I think he can be part of a championship team, and I think he will contribute more this year, if he gets spelled.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
There is also 20 other contracts ending the same time as Crabs, Iupati, Kaep, and Aldons, not to mention cuts between now and then, I really think using the excuse of being able to sign those 4 as a reason to cut players like Brooks and Rogers is a little far fetched especially giving that after all the ending contracts we will have about 35 million in cap space to work out contracts for at least 3 of those 4 stars and fill the remaining 9-10 positions. Our front office has been complete wizards when it comes to contracts/extensions and such so dont get too worried about it unless Brooks actually shows real decline in his play, which hasn't happened yet unlike Rogers.

You Have kaep that will demand flaco money and possibly even Rodgers money if he wins it all this year. Even at a hometown discount you'll still be looking at 20 mil a year. Then you have smith who will want close to what Matthews makes and even at a hometown discount you'll be looking at 10 mil. Iupati might not get a carl nicks contract but will want a lot of money. Crabtree is the only one we might get a really good deal on because of his injury. All of these guys are stars and are a couple years younger than brooks. You also have boldin (who we will let go of unless crabtree bails) tarrel brown, mannigham, asomugha, donter whitner, and oh yeah Justin smith. Those are all people who's contracts end in 14 then in 15 you have culli miller hunter and Dorsey. Does it still seem a lil far fetched? We have a lot of people to resign plus rookie contracts and free agents ect.. This front office does work magic no doubt but they haven't yet come across on offseason as challenging as the one ahead.
Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Originally posted by buck:
We will get the answers next year and the following year. Just have to wait.

This right here is the only fact /thread...


So nothing else you or I have talked about in this whole thread is a fact? Most is opinion but there is a lot of facts in here too.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
NCommand Post #143 I think spells out what most people feel about Brooks. You can reject it if you want. But you are in the minority. I think there was another thread earlier about Brooks along the lines of who cares about this guy and isn't time he got cut, and the response was about 10-1 in favor and the thread tapered off to oblivion.

The way I look at it, Brooks had a reasonable statistical year, plus made KEY KEY plays down the stretch when his number was called. For example, grinding Ryan into the turf thereby reminding him that football is a contact sport. It may have been the single play that got us past the Falcons.

Anyone who watched the games down the stretch has a warm and fuzzy for Brooks but not for Aldon. So I think you are totally swimming upstream saying this guy is a mediocre joe who doesn't stand out with peers. That's just false. You might say he's the best option for a salary cap casualty (I don't agree) but don't paint him as a system beneficiary. He helps make the system. If he had less snaps, he would make it better.

As far as the other part of your argument about Mac, I think he was more impactful in 2011 than 2012 and I attribute that in no small part to Fangio deciding that -- in a league where offensive lineman are physically inflating at 5% a year -- that 290 lb lineman can still take 1000 snaps no problem. I think that has to change. I think Mac is a good player. Does he give you the salary concerns Brooks does? I think he can be part of a championship team, and I think he will contribute more this year, if he gets spelled.


He doesn't stand out from his peers. He is the least important linebacker on our team. I didn't get a chance to read the other thread your referring to but I never said brooks needs to get cut this season. I feel like on this thread it is about the same ratio 10-1. lol but I still feel I am making a valid argument. If we can resign everybody and keep brooks next year then of course you do it, if not rogers is the first casualty and brooks the second IMO. They are both older players on a young roster.

How can you guys tell me dashon golston was a product of the system and in the same breath tell me brooks is not. Goldson will surely be missed this year and was more important to the team IMO than brooks was or has ever been. Brooks gets around 50 combined tackles and 6-7 sacks a year so yeah that is reasonable but by no means great. These KEY KEY plays your talking about aren't happening all the time like you make it out to be. Justin, aldon, Patrick, navaro, and dashon all made just as many but probably more KEY KEY plays than brooks did this past year. Look to me the last 2 years are going to be brooks' best as he is only getting older and everyone else in the league is getting quicker.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
I really shouldn't be the one correcting people as you can see my spelling is atrocious, and I spelt goldson as golston which wouldn't even be correct if I was talking about Vernon.
No worries at all...don't mind the corrections to fundamental mistakes.
Again brook's numbers are satisfactory no doubt just think he can be upgraded. He is approaching 30 and isn't very fast.
So ideally, you'd like the SAM to produce around double-digit sacks. The age thing isn't too much of a worry as he trains very hard and d/t a late start, doesn't have a ton of wear and tear on his tires. But I agree, he may end up being relegated to PT player by the end of 2014/start of 2015. But Cam Johnson, Darius Fleming and Lemonier are truly going to have to show a complete SAM skill set and be able to handle the FT duty (97% on the field for a long long back-to-back seasons where we go to the NFC Championship game and then the Superbowl).
Rogers was in the pro-bowl in 2011 but does that mean he was a top 10 corner in the league in 11? def not in my opinion as obviously I'm not a rogers fan. I can bring up plenty of examples of people that made the pro-bowl that aren't in the top 10 at their position. Phillip Rivers comes to mind.
Agreed about Rogers and the pro bowls...they are usually a year or two behind and miss the boat often (popularity contest). But all-pro is different. Any time ANY SAM OLB in the 3-4 makes that list, THAT is saying something b/c he is seen as valuable as a WILL who is putting up the glorified (by design) sack numbers that everyone lusts over. That's special. And to get that recognition by his peers says even more. In fact, like I said previously, Brooks has been the one getting double-teams the past two years and Aldon has benefited. Playing the SAM is the equivalent to playing NT where the guy next to you, Justin Smith, gets all the press.
Brooks has never reached 10 sacks and that would be fine if he made up for it with his run defense and pass coverage. His run defense is there but he can't guard these tight ends or halfbacks very well and has a hard time keeping up with faster qbs. The league is constantly changing and teams need to adapt. Will Lemonier start this year? no probably not. But can he? I don't see any reason why he couldn't. A lot of you are making it seem like it would be near impossible and that isn't the case. The same thing applies to Tank and Mac.
It's interesting you bring up VD b/c I agree with you there as well. He is one of, if not the best TE in the game and his hands have been excellent the past two years...no longer an issue. But if we don't use him in the passing game what good is he? Brooks is the same way. If we don't rush him from the WILL spot, move him around, have him walk back and forth standing up pre-snap to rush the gaps on the OL, what good is he? He's playing straight up and defenses can continue to line their TE's and RB's on his strong side. This isn't Pittsburgh here. If you watch the way other teams utilize their OLB's it's very different (Green Bay, Denver, etc). Those defenses are designed to free up their OLB's and attack.

Brooks has to first read the play (run) and if it's a pass, play off and through one or two blockers in the sight-line of the QB and THEN rush him. On the flip side, Aldon is free to rush the passer the mass majority of the time with little worry if it's a run or dropping back in coverage (all from the blind side and with Justin taking on two OL - McDonald is not as good as this). This past year he had to play every snap, learn to play the run and set the edge but rarely dropped back. Nobody is talking about it but taking that many snaps and having to play the run more may have cost us the Superbowl with late injuries to both Smith's. Brooks also obviously played through his injury as well.

Now Lemonier didn't have quite the college career Brooks had but he looks like an absolute clone when you watch him. This 3-4 defense, as straight up as it is, like the WCO, still takes a few years to fully get. That's not a knock on Lemonier but on the scheme. He will sub Brooks here and there depending on his strengths and like Aldon, will be brought along slowly. The difference here is that Haralson was very weak for a WILL OLB...that is your pass rushing OLB position. Therefore, as a rookie, Aldon was allowed to pin his ears back on every play and rush the passer on passing downs...fresh off the bench. Then he had another off season to learn to play the run more and this next year, you can expect him to be a better more well-rounded WILL. This year we should expect him to disguise his rushes better, knock down a freaking pass for a change with that 20 foot wing span, get an INT dropping back in zone, seal the edge much better, diagnose plays better, etc.

If Lemonier shows some ability to pass rush along with Johnson/Fleming, we should expect both Brooks and Aldon to be spelled here and there. But neither will be starters unless they have the full playbook down and show a complete skill set esp. at the SAM (many more responsibilities over the WILL).

Bottom line: If you put Brooks at WILL all year long, there is NO doubt he would easily have double-digit sacks. Hell, he's physically hurt about 1/2 a dozen QB's from the SAM. Imagine him from the blind side? He'd snap a spine! LOL
[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 2, 2013 at 8:38 AM ]
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
NCommand Post #143 I think spells out what most people feel about Brooks. You can reject it if you want. But you are in the minority. I think there was another thread earlier about Brooks along the lines of who cares about this guy and isn't time he got cut, and the response was about 10-1 in favor and the thread tapered off to oblivion.

I remember that one as well..didn't last long at all. Always good to debate though. No matter what the majority opinion is, having an opposite view helps cover all the bases. Makes us a more educated fan base
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
He doesn't stand out from his peers. He is the least important linebacker on our team. I didn't get a chance to read the other thread your referring to but I never said brooks needs to get cut this season. I feel like on this thread it is about the same ratio 10-1. lol but I still feel I am making a valid argument. If we can resign everybody and keep brooks next year then of course you do it, if not rogers is the first casualty and brooks the second IMO. They are both older players on a young roster.

How can you guys tell me dashon golston was a product of the system and in the same breath tell me brooks is not. Goldson will surely be missed this year and was more important to the team IMO than brooks was or has ever been. Brooks gets around 50 combined tackles and 6-7 sacks a year so yeah that is reasonable but by no means great. These KEY KEY plays your talking about aren't happening all the time like you make it out to be. Justin, aldon, Patrick, navaro, and dashon all made just as many but probably more KEY KEY plays than brooks did this past year. Look to me the last 2 years are going to be brooks' best as he is only getting older and everyone else in the league is getting quicker.

Dude, Willis Goldson and Aldon disappeared in the postseason. Brooks did not. Are we talking about the same Ahmad Brooks? Is there another guy by that name you are talking about? You're just being weird with this anti-Brooks sentiment. BTW, I have no opinion about Goldson so I have never participated in any arguments about whether he was overrated or not. I know other teams thought he was a good player. Like New ENgland.

The reason why the 49ers don't have a hyperactive OLB presence (like steelers, etc) is because Aldon can't play SAM, not that Brooks can't be a WILL. SO there is very little switching at the line, I guess. You have to get that when you are talking about sack stats. Aldon is too big for coverage too, so far. SO the go for broke play is rush the passer, and he does that well.
DrinkaMiller: "He doesn't stand out from his peers. He is the least important linebacker on our team."

And this: "Goldson will surely be missed this year and was more important to the team IMO than brooks was or has ever been."

Again, here's my fundamental problem with this perception. I think it's just perception or opinion not necessarily based on sound analysis.

Can we agree that Pro Football Focus has sound analysis technique and a good set of criteria by which they grade players? They have pretty much the opposite view. They see Goldson as "solid but unspectacular" with a "nagging tendency to commit infractions." They don't think Goldson was that important to the Niner defense and they don't think he'll make a big difference in Tampa Bay https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/14/fantasy-reaction-dashon-goldson-signs-with-tampa-bay

On the other hand, the rate Ahmed Brooks as the 5th best OLB in the league rating him extremely strong against the run and one of the better pass rushers for a strong side linebacker. Of course, they were taking into account not only sacks, but pressures and what they call disrupting the quarterback.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
DrinkaMiller: "He doesn't stand out from his peers. He is the least important linebacker on our team."

And this: "Goldson will surely be missed this year and was more important to the team IMO than brooks was or has ever been."

Again, here's my fundamental problem with this perception. I think it's just perception or opinion not necessarily based on sound analysis.

Can we agree that Pro Football Focus has sound analysis technique and a good set of criteria by which they grade players? They have pretty much the opposite view. They see Goldson as "solid but unspectacular" with a "nagging tendency to commit infractions." They don't think Goldson was that important to the Niner defense and they don't think he'll make a big difference in Tampa Bay https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2013/03/14/fantasy-reaction-dashon-goldson-signs-with-tampa-bay

On the other hand, the rate Ahmed Brooks as the 5th best OLB in the league rating him extremely strong against the run and one of the better pass rushers for a strong side linebacker. Of course, they were taking into account not only sacks, but pressures and what they call disrupting the quarterback.

Pff has always had trouble grading safties. Unlike other positions, where you can watch one on one match-ups, its almost impossible to get a accurate judgement on safety play without knowing what he is asked to do on a certain play. So in other words no I don't think we can agree on the bolded. Even with other positions Pff is just a piece of the puzzle and can't be taken as gospel.
Originally posted by JimDrinkAMiller:
You Have kaep that will demand flaco money and possibly even Rodgers money if he wins it all this year. Even at a hometown discount you'll still be looking at 20 mil a year. Then you have smith who will want close to what Matthews makes and even at a hometown discount you'll be looking at 10 mil. Iupati might not get a carl nicks contract but will want a lot of money. Crabtree is the only one we might get a really good deal on because of his injury. All of these guys are stars and are a couple years younger than brooks. You also have boldin (who we will let go of unless crabtree bails) tarrel brown, mannigham, asomugha, donter whitner, and oh yeah Justin smith. Those are all people who's contracts end in 14 then in 15 you have culli miller hunter and Dorsey. Does it still seem a lil far fetched? We have a lot of people to resign plus rookie contracts and free agents ect.. This front office does work magic no doubt but they haven't yet come across on offseason as challenging as the one ahead.

do you really understand the way we do contracts or the way contracts work and count against the salary cap in general? As much as I will get burned on here and criticized for this, Kaep wont demand flacco or Rodgers type money, 120 mill after just 26 maybe 29 games is extremely unlikely. Boldin's value is less then he will be getting paid this season, theres no guarantee Justin ever returns to the team again before the Super Bowl he was talking about retirement, many of the players you listed are not exactly high value players other then Kaep, Crabs (even though we tend to overvalue him here), Iupati, Aldon and possibly Brown. So resigning them wont be as expensive and you may want to believe.
[ Edited by LoneWolf on Jun 2, 2013 at 11:52 PM ]