There are 154 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Is It Time To Identify A Franchise WR ?

Originally posted by Rascal:
But, beyond this year ? Anquan will turn 34 in Oct, 2014.

We have a hard time agreeing on the now, let alone the future! Perhaps Jenkins and Patton are our future...or Lockette...or next years draft pick.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Rascal:
But, beyond this year ? Anquan will turn 34 in Oct, 2014.

We have a hard time agreeing on the now, let alone the future! Perhaps Jenkins and Patton are our future...or Lockette...or next years draft pick.

Or Crabtree might be re-signed.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Trying to think of a receiver the 9ers should have traded up for the past four or five years...as they did for Rice. Green is the only guy I felt strongly about and the team would have lost A Smith to get him. So I really think trying to draft a super, can't miss WR is a pipe dream unless a team is very lucky. Des Bryant was probably the next most impressive guy...and he's just too much trouble.

Further back, Calvin Johnson was the last super WR drafted and was #2 in 2007, with Ted Ginn being the second WR drafted that year at #9

Much safer to build your WR corps with good solid guys who fit into the system. Baalke and Harbaugh are in the process and will get there soon!

I vaguely recall either an article or some research done maybe four or five years ago about first round busts by position. Fairly sure qb's and wr's were right at the top of the list.

Top of my head we have only taken 4 in the first round since Rice. Stokes was a disappointment for one first round pick. For two, he was a calamity. Woods was a straight bust, the epitome of busting. Crabtree has had a slow start but looks as though he will produce at some level although at present the injuries are marring his career. A lot depends now if he can be re-signed and if his health improves. And of course, the jury is still out on Jenkins.

That is a lousy return for five first round picks. The draft is a lottery but I have felt for some time that your chances of success with a first round pick are relatively lower at the wide receiver position. Obviously if it is your final gaping hole, you are going to have to take a shot. But there is plenty of value in the lower rounds and maybe a pool of 4 or 5 reasonable players would be better than that gamble on a high pick.

And as I have said before, whilst this team is loaded, age and FA losses is going to provide other targets for that early pick.

Tough call. Guess that's why Baalke is paid the big bucks.

Just to add. Even if they find that #1 receiver, it's still that core of good receivers that makes the offense successful and consistent. Look at Walsh when he started out with the Niners. He had Freddie Solomon who was kinda, sorta a #1 -- maybe Freddie had the speed and served role within the group. Then there's Clark. He's not fast but can work the short to intermediate area. All were taught by Walsh to play smart. Play in conjunction with the qb with timing. Walsh was successful with his receivers before Rice came along. He didn't need Rice to be successful. Rice just made the offense that much better. Even with Rice, they still needed Taylor, Sherrard, McCaffery -- those 2nd and 3rd guys to function effectively when Rice gets the attention from the defense.

We're seeing the same thing with C.Johnson . The Lions can't function with just Johnson alone. What the team needs is different type of guys with any combination of size, speed, and quickness to attack different part of the field. And use them in conjunction with each other.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Rascal:
But, beyond this year ? Anquan will turn 34 in Oct, 2014.

We have a hard time agreeing on the now, let alone the future! Perhaps Jenkins and Patton are our future...or Lockette...or next years draft pick.

Or Crabtree might be re-signed.

And a side-effect of his injury might be that it will be easier to sign him.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,340
It does look like wide receiver and corner back might be major needs when we get to next year's draft. But, before next year's draft, we do have this season and next year's free agency. Whether we like it or not, at this point we really do not know if wide receiver or corner back will actually be our major needs in the 2014 draft.

But for the sake of this discussion, and only for this discussion, let's make the assumption that our major need in the 2014 draft will be a #1 wide receiver. So for this particular discussion, we do not trade for a #1 wide receiver or sign a #1 wide receiver in free agency before the 2014 draft.

We can rest assured that the search for a player to fill this need has already begun, and that that search began some time ago. If we know anything about NFL teams and how they function, we know that they begin the search for new talent in future drafts early. Last year when our scouts went to games, when they studied the game tape, and when they talked to coaching staffs, they did not focus solely on evaluating players for the past draft.

I think we can pretty much assume that Baalke began identifying potential #1 wide receivers for the 2014 draft, before we made our picks in the 2013 draft.

If we can agree that Baalke has already begun this identification process, we can focus the discussion on who this #1 wide receiver should be and why.
[ Edited by buck on May 27, 2013 at 10:20 AM ]
Well identify a #1 receiver should be easy. He has to do a couple of thing really, really well -- getting open and catches the ball.
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Just to add. Even if they find that #1 receiver, it's still that core of good receivers that makes the offense successful and consistent. Look at Walsh when he started out with the Niners. He had Freddie Solomon who was kinda, sorta a #1 -- maybe Freddie had the speed and served role within the group. Then there's Clark. He's not fast but can work the short to intermediate area. All were taught by Walsh to play smart. Play in conjunction with the qb with timing. Walsh was successful with his receivers before Rice came along. He didn't need Rice to be successful. Rice just made the offense that much better. Even with Rice, they still needed Taylor, Sherrard, McCaffery -- those 2nd and 3rd guys to function effectively when Rice gets the attention from the defense.

We're seeing the same thing with C.Johnson . The Lions can't function with just Johnson alone. What the team needs is different type of guys with any combination of size, speed, and quickness to attack different part of the field. And use them in conjunction with each other.


I don't disagree with that. As I have said before, having a top WR is not mutually exclusive to having a supporting cast of decent receivers just like your Jerry Rice example with John Taylor and the rest of the crew.
Originally posted by English:
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by English:
The only realistic way to get a franchise qb is by drafting dudes and trying to develop them. We won't need to identify him. It will be obvious.

That is what I am saying. If AJJ was such an attempt, then I have to admit I am shocked we picked him. When I say "identify", what I mean is to go after what we think is a TOP wideout in a BIG way, much like how the Falcons went after Julio Jones for example. I am yet to see us make such a bold and powerful move so far.

I confess to being kind of drawn to the idea of having a team of good receivers rather than one great receiver. Yeah it was great having Jerry but losing Crabtree shows what happens when they all go in one basket.

IMO, the FO has not done nearly as good a job identifying and drafting quality WRs as it has other positions. Crabtree is beginning to look like a very good, not elite, receiver but he fell to them. He was not someone that they went out and found, then developed into a great receiver.

While it is not necessary to have an elite receiver to win a championship, it certainly opens up the game for everyone else. Just as a good running game opens up the passing game, a good passing game opens up the running game. It is a matter of how consistently the offense can operate against a good defense such as you always find in the playoffs.

I believe that of the receivers on the roster at the end of last season, only Crabtree will remain when the passing offense reaches top 10 level. Kaepernick's rifle arm is not enough to make up for receivers who cannot get separation from defenders either by routes or speed. (Let's hope Jenkins or Patton or Lockette can change that but I don't see anything yet to indicate that will happen.)
Originally posted by GNielsen:
And a side-effect of his injury might be that it will be easier to sign him.


From the 9ers' perspective, yes. But, I doubt Crab will see it that way. My guess is Crab will probably be looking at Percy Harvin money, at around $11 mil a year. Anything more, he may price himself out of the market as teams tend to reserve the top dollar contracts for outside receivers. If the 9ers wants to negotiate down his deal using the injury as a bargaining chip, a difference of say $1 mil may be acceptable to Crab, but if the difference reaches $2 mil I think he will be a goner.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,340
Originally posted by GNielsen:
And a side-effect of his injury might be that it will be easier to sign him.

We still have two seasons before Crabtree is a free agent

What he does on the football field between now and then will shape what happens with Crabtree in the future.

It is hard to predict.
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 12,340
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Just to add. Even if they find that #1 receiver, it's still that core of good receivers that makes the offense successful and consistent.

Very true. A solid core of wide receivers is a critical element on any team.

If the receivers on the squad do well this year, we should have a very good year and that would indictate that we do a solid core of receivers.

Having that solid core plus a returning Crabtree would give the team flexibility in the draft and free agency.

It would reduce the need or pressure to spend a high draft pick on a wide receiver or to sign an #1 wide receiver in free agency.

It would also reduce the risk involved in using a high pick on a wide receiver or picking up a receiver in free agency.
[ Edited by buck on May 27, 2013 at 12:14 PM ]
Originally posted by Rascal:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
And a side-effect of his injury might be that it will be easier to sign him.


From the 9ers' perspective, yes. But, I doubt Crab will see it that way. My guess is Crab will probably be looking at Percy Harvin money, at around $11 mil a year. Anything more, he may price himself out of the market as teams tend to reserve the top dollar contracts for outside receivers. If the 9ers wants to negotiate down his deal using the injury as a bargaining chip, a difference of say $1 mil may be acceptable to Crab, but if the difference reaches $2 mil I think he will be a goner.

Typically, other teams are more wary of an injury than the holding team, not less. And, most GM's around the league have already indicated that they think the Harvin deal is a bit of an aberration and that they think the Seahawks paid too much. But, we'll know a lot more by the end of this next season. If the Harvin deal doesn't bring significant results to Seattle, it's going to be a sign to GM's around the league that receiver money has topped out or gone a little too far. What has the Vincent Jackson deal done for the Bucs and for that matter, what has Megatron done for the Lions? Yes, they produce, but what has that actually done for the teams?
Jesus, another "We need a 6'3+ 220 pound receiver that runs a 4.3 with great hands" thread?

If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

-The only receiver in GB's passing attack over 6'1 is Jordy Nelson who when they won the SB was not even a starter, Driver is 6'0, Jennings 5'11, Cobb 5'10, Jones 6'1.
-When NYG won the SB, Nicks 6'1, Manningham 6'0, Cruz 6'0.
-Baltimore's tallest receiver was Jones at 6'2, Torrey Smith 6'0, Boldin 6'1 and he wasnt even on the field the majority of the season (talkin bout Jones).
-Pitt's WRs the last couple times they went to the SB Santonio Holmes 5'11, Wallace 6'0, Sanders 5'11, Antonio Brown 5'10... yeah they have Burress but what has he even done since getting out of prison.

There is zero correlation in having a Vincent Jackson type receiver and success in the playoffs, infact it looks like it is more important to get smaller quicker receivers that get open within 10 yards in 2 seconds than a 6'4 gazelle that needs 4 seconds to reach the second level.
[ Edited by 5280High on May 27, 2013 at 5:40 PM ]
Originally posted by 5280High:
Jesus, another "We need a 6'3+ 220 pound receiver that runs a 4.3 with great hands" thread?

If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

-The only receiver in GB's passing attack over 6'1 is Jordy Nelson who when they won the SB was not even a starter, Driver is 6'0, Jennings 5'11, Cobb 5'10, Jones 6'1.
-When NYG won the SB, Nicks 6'1, Manningham 6'0, Cruz 6'0.
-Baltimore's tallest receiver was Jones at 6'2, Torrey Smith 6'0, Boldin 6'1 and he wasnt even on the field the majority of the season (talkin bout Jones).
-Pitt's WRs the last couple times they went to the SB Santonio Holmes 5'11, Wallace 6'0, Sanders 5'11, Antonio Brown 5'10... yeah they have Burress but what has he even done since getting out of prison.

There is zero correlation in having a Vincent Jackson type receiver and success in the playoffs, infact it looks like it is more important to get smaller quicker receivers that get open within 10 yards in 2 seconds than a 6'4 gazelle that needs 4 seconds to reach the second level.

This.
Originally posted by 5280High:
Jesus, another "We need a 6'3+ 220 pound receiver that runs a 4.3 with great hands" thread?

If they were that easy to find every team would have one.

-The only receiver in GB's passing attack over 6'1 is Jordy Nelson who when they won the SB was not even a starter, Driver is 6'0, Jennings 5'11, Cobb 5'10, Jones 6'1.
-When NYG won the SB, Nicks 6'1, Manningham 6'0, Cruz 6'0.
-Baltimore's tallest receiver was Jones at 6'2, Torrey Smith 6'0, Boldin 6'1 and he wasnt even on the field the majority of the season (talkin bout Jones).
-Pitt's WRs the last couple times they went to the SB Santonio Holmes 5'11, Wallace 6'0, Sanders 5'11, Antonio Brown 5'10... yeah they have Burress but what has he even done since getting out of prison.

There is zero correlation in having a Vincent Jackson type receiver and success in the playoffs, infact it looks like it is more important to get smaller quicker receivers that get open within 10 yards in 2 seconds than a 6'4 gazelle that needs 4 seconds to reach the second level.

I prefer 6'4" but 6'3" will do in a pinch! LOL!