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Secondary is Niners X factor this year

  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 6,446
Originally posted by WeAreLegend:
Ya'll act like Harbaugh ad Ballke are stupid.

Enjoy this Superbowl........

What's your guess on who the opponent will be and final score?
[ Edited by LVJay on May 19, 2013 at 10:04 PM ]
  • Garcia
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 27,392
I really don't understand how Donte Whitner all the sudden became an "average" player.

Dude is a beast. He is not perfect but a very good player and a team leader.
Originally posted by NCommand:
As to the OP, yes, I have some major concerns about our secondary and I'm not sure if we fully addressed the issues.
  • Pass rush - No doubt Baalke feels with added pass rush and rotation in the front 7, the secondary will benefit (duh). That said, with a stronger back end, we'd get more "coverage sacks" too. So it works both ways. Did Baalke help the front 7 by improving the back end?
  • Scheme - quick, it's 3 and 3. How far off will our CB's play off? 5 or 10 yards? This is an issue b/c we don't have any burners who can recover on a poor first step and we don't have the physical CB's (minus Culliver) to play press...welcome Nnamdi.
  • Technique - I noticed a BIG difference from the previous year. Rogers got his big contract by breaking off routes with over-the-top coverage and undercutting WR routes. He didn't do that one time last year and it, to me, appeared we stayed with the theme of keeping everything in front of them (very few challenges) but worse, the CB's didn't play the ball until it reached the WR's; in short, they didn't keep an eye on the QB and didn't use their experience to jump balls . As a result, our TO's went WAY down. For a microcasm of this issue, watch how differently the CB's for the Ravens played vs. ours. Polar opposite. This is a combination of scheme and technique. Also, as noted on NFL Network, our S's got so used to playing so deep and down hill, they were VERY susceptible to double moves and even blown coverages (even as last as the freaking Superbowl).
  • Whitner - let's be real, we love this dude and he is SO well spoken, he'll have a long career as a commentator. He's a leader and helps relay the defensive plays. He is excellent playing down hill and in the box. The problem is he is short, has no vertical and is even slower now. He was destroyed for 14 TD's alone last year and most were on bigger, taller, more physical slot WR's and TE's. This is STILL a huge glaring weakness. Unless the FO feels Dahl can step in and give up less (possible), we still have no answer for this and teams will continue to exploit him.
  • Rogers - dude got paid and IMHO, half-asses it all last year. Once he got burned and the spot light was on him, then he'd play harder. But the fact is, when we needed him most (3rd down against Boldin), he failed. Baalke has noted he wants to get taller, strong, more physical at CB (ala Seattle). Rogers, his half-ass attitude and his contract don't align. Nnamdi was brought in to not only fit that mold but push Rogers ass! Again, welcome Nnamdi!
  • Nnamdi - already stated he fits the Baalke ideal now (see also, Marcus Cooper)
  • Reid for Goldson - upside is even higher than Goldson and he's already smarter than him. Fingers crossed here he develops and develops quickly.
  • Slot CB - Amendola (with one collar bone) destroyed us last year. Welker did OK. But now we face Austin and Harvin and maybe more. Aside from the size, quickness and speed of Darryl Morris, do we really have anyone who can seriously fit this role to a T?
Not a lot to pick apart here.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Darryl Morris is incredibly quick and fast. And, he's the right size to cover Austin and Harvin. Un-fricking-believable quickness: 10yard dash - 1.48 sec. (!) 20 yards - 2.5 sec. and a low 40 on his pro day of 4.29. He might be the surprise of the off-season as an answer to Harvin and Austin.

I think he's gotta be the solution. No question the coaching staff envisions this possibly being that guy. In fact despite going undrafted they might already be seeing him as a vital piece to the puzzle, for, as you pointed out he's off the charts, prospectively as a slot corner.. Beyond that he has the 'potential' to be really special IMO. This staff turns players into a highlight reel, because they teach players how to eliminating the possibility of making a mistake by simply trusting what you do well, and refining it in a conducive way for success. As opposed to operating under tentative restraint, and under-stimulating trivialities.
Not worry about the secondary. It's the NT position I'm a bit leery. I know we have Tomsula - the greatest D line coach of all time -- But other than Dorsey with some experience on the Dline, the others have very little. Hopefully there's another Alex Boone on the Dline this year.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Last year's defensive issues literally can be traced to the moment that Justin Smith got injured against New England.

Hey P, is this really true? I keep seeing it posted all over the place. I believe we saw an article by MM that pointed out the point differential before and after Justin went down. I truly believe that when both Simth's were hurt it certainly affected us...pressures were still there but run defense seemed worse and teams opened it up more. That said, the stats may be a little skewed b/c look who we played...a Patriots team who had to go no-huddle spread to nearly pull the game out, then onto a hot Seattle team at home who was running a wide open offense, then 3 pass-happy teams.

The point I'm trying to make is Whitner was pwned all year long WITH the Smith's healthy (or not). Goldson was still a double-move, double-nightmare, we were still blowing coverages IN THE SUPERBOWL, Rogers still was unable to make a play...all year long when it mattered and Brown, as usual, played very consistent and probably played the best throughout the playoffs and Superbowl (and still got burned a few times). Culliver played steady all year and then got burned by our very own Boldin on jump balls/muscle plays and by the refs.

We seemed to do better in giving up less yards but did give up more points (esp. when it mattered and in the RZ), had way less TO's (fumbles, INT's, passes defended, etc.)...I think we may have been better on 3rd downs though?

I do agree with the premise that a better pass rush and rotation should help the secondary a lot but with a Whitner a year older (and his issues not being fixable), a rookie FS, etc. can this group really help the front 7 and garner "coverage sacks?" It works both ways.

I love the additions of Reid (the package), Cooper (size and physicality), Morris (slot CB & ST perhaps) and the added competition of Dahl (to push Whitner and insurance) and Nnamdi to push Rogers. Hopefully, scheme, technique, IQ and a better front 7 can mask our true weakness this year and it somehow develops into a strength down the stretch.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 20, 2013 at 7:19 AM ]
Originally posted by qnnhan7:
Not worry about the secondary. It's the NT position I'm a bit leery. I know we have Tomsula - the greatest D line coach of all time -- But other than Dorsey with some experience on the Dline, the others have very little. Hopefully there's another Alex Boone on the Dline this year.

Agreed, this is a worry for me as well. Hopefully Dorsey is motivated to play NT (and can play it well). Ian's been developing for years so let's "hope" he's ready now. But for big bruising running teams (a struggle for us), we may see more 4-man DL rotations this year, maybe even a wild card such as NT Lamar Divens (6'3" 340) making the team for this situation as well as goal line and short yardage situations. The problem with 4 man DL is it takes one guy out of the secondary which can be trouble on a play-action pass.
Originally posted by bdub2588:
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Darryl Morris is incredibly quick and fast. And, he's the right size to cover Austin and Harvin. Un-fricking-believable quickness: 10yard dash - 1.48 sec. (!) 20 yards - 2.5 sec. and a low 40 on his pro day of 4.29. He might be the surprise of the off-season as an answer to Harvin and Austin.

I think he's gotta be the solution. No question the coaching staff envisions this possibly being that guy. In fact despite going undrafted they might already be seeing him as a vital piece to the puzzle, for, as you pointed out he's off the charts, prospectively as a slot corner.. Beyond that he has the 'potential' to be really special IMO. This staff turns players into a highlight reel, because they teach players how to eliminating the possibility of making a mistake by simply trusting what you do well, and refining it in a conducive way for success. As opposed to operating under tentative restraint, and under-stimulating trivialities.

He's definitely one of the more interesting "wild-card" players to watch during training camp and pre-season. I don't know if I've ever seen a quicker 10-yard split time than his 1.48 seconds - that's a quick as a human being can get.
may have picked up some diamonds in the rough with Marcus Cooper & Darryl Morris in Draft & UDFA
  • Kolohe
  • Hall of Fame
  • Posts: 31,338
Originally posted by NCommand:
As to the OP, yes, I have some major concerns about our secondary and I'm not sure if we fully addressed the issues.
  • Slot CB - Amendola (with one collar bone) destroyed us last year. Welker did OK. But now we face Austin and Harvin and maybe more. Aside from the size, quickness and speed of Darryl Morris, do we really have anyone who can seriously fit this role to a T?

I think we do in Tarrell Brown, but Fangio keeps him outside covering the bigger receiver. Its frustrating as hell cause we all know Brown has the size, fluidity and quickness to blanket these slot receivers, but instead has Carlos Rogers covering them.

In the 2001 NBA Championship when Derek Fisher use to guard Allen Iverson and Iverson was too quick and fast for him. Then Phil Jackson got smart and put Tyronn Lue on Iverson and Iverson couldn't do s**t small vs. small. Tarrell Brown = Tyronn Lue
Originally posted by ninerempire25:
may have picked up some diamonds in the rough with Marcus Cooper & Darryl Morris in Draft & UDFA

Yeah, Marcus Cooper is another interesting player - Richard Sherman height and a little faster at about a 4.45 40. When I look at Cooper and Morris, I just don't understand how they dropped so far. I'm sure that's just one of the many reasons why I don't work for a scouting organization, but one looks like Richard Sherman only a little faster and the other has one of the fastest 10 yard splits ever recorded and a low 40 of 4.29 seconds - and this in a period where we have these incredibly quick, small slot receivers everyone has to account for.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I think we do in Tarrell Brown, but Fangio keeps him outside covering the bigger receiver. Its frustrating as hell cause we all know Brown has the size, fluidity and quickness to blanket these slot receivers, but instead has Carlos Rogers covering them.

In the 2001 NBA Championship when Derek Fisher use to guard Allen Iverson and Iverson was too quick and fast for him. Then Phil Jackson got smart and put Tyronn Lue on Iverson and Iverson couldn't do s**t small vs. small. Tarrell Brown = Tyronn Lue

Maybe this year, with Austin and Harvin in the mix, T Brown moves in to the slot and Nnamdi covers the tallest receiver on the outside. Or maybe, the quickest DB on the team, Darryl Morris, surprises everyone and becomes a rookie slot corner. Nobody's measurables are quicker than Morris - not Austin and not Harvin - they may be about the same, but they're not quicker than a 1.48 second 10 yard split - that's just off the charts.
Originally posted by Kolohe:
Originally posted by NCommand:
As to the OP, yes, I have some major concerns about our secondary and I'm not sure if we fully addressed the issues.
  • Slot CB - Amendola (with one collar bone) destroyed us last year. Welker did OK. But now we face Austin and Harvin and maybe more. Aside from the size, quickness and speed of Darryl Morris, do we really have anyone who can seriously fit this role to a T?

I think we do in Tarrell Brown, but Fangio keeps him outside covering the bigger receiver. Its frustrating as hell cause we all know Brown has the size, fluidity and quickness to blanket these slot receivers, but instead has Carlos Rogers covering them.

In the 2001 NBA Championship when Derek Fisher use to guard Allen Iverson and Iverson was too quick and fast for him. Then Phil Jackson got smart and put Tyronn Lue on Iverson and Iverson couldn't do s**t small vs. small. Tarrell Brown = Tyronn Lue

Thanks K...you know, I thought about that one as well. I think I even proposed sticking with the new Baalke-theme and going more press coverage (physical/aggressive) with Culliver and Nnamdi on the outside with Brown slipping inside to the slot. But right now, Brown is our best outside CB so are the coaches really willing to do this? They do have balls...so let's see.
[ Edited by NCommand on May 20, 2013 at 11:37 AM ]
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I think we do in Tarrell Brown, but Fangio keeps him outside covering the bigger receiver. Its frustrating as hell cause we all know Brown has the size, fluidity and quickness to blanket these slot receivers, but instead has Carlos Rogers covering them.

In the 2001 NBA Championship when Derek Fisher use to guard Allen Iverson and Iverson was too quick and fast for him. Then Phil Jackson got smart and put Tyronn Lue on Iverson and Iverson couldn't do s**t small vs. small. Tarrell Brown = Tyronn Lue

Maybe this year, with Austin and Harvin in the mix, T Brown moves in to the slot and Nnamdi covers the tallest receiver on the outside. Or maybe, the quickest DB on the team, Darryl Morris, surprises everyone and becomes a rookie slot corner. Nobody's measurables are quicker than Morris - not Austin and not Harvin - they may be about the same, but they're not quicker than a 1.48 second 10 yard split - that's just off the charts.

Wouldn't this be cool!
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Originally posted by Kolohe:
I think we do in Tarrell Brown, but Fangio keeps him outside covering the bigger receiver. Its frustrating as hell cause we all know Brown has the size, fluidity and quickness to blanket these slot receivers, but instead has Carlos Rogers covering them.

In the 2001 NBA Championship when Derek Fisher use to guard Allen Iverson and Iverson was too quick and fast for him. Then Phil Jackson got smart and put Tyronn Lue on Iverson and Iverson couldn't do s**t small vs. small. Tarrell Brown = Tyronn Lue

Maybe this year, with Austin and Harvin in the mix, T Brown moves in to the slot and Nnamdi covers the tallest receiver on the outside. Or maybe, the quickest DB on the team, Darryl Morris, surprises everyone and becomes a rookie slot corner. Nobody's measurables are quicker than Morris - not Austin and not Harvin - they may be about the same, but they're not quicker than a 1.48 second 10 yard split - that's just off the charts.

Good post