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GUESS THE 53!!

Why Would Williams be the automatic #3 WR, he hasn't done crap in his career to justify it. If Manningham is fully healthy when back, he is the #3 WR, he has earned the spot.

Williams is NOT a LOCK. He has returned 9 punts in is career, hardly a veteran at that aspect,

Also those who think We should go 3 deep at ILB are crazy. Injuries happen, we need a 4th ILB, either wilhoite or moody.

No way 7 WRs make this team, just cut one and have 6 for the time being or until Mario comes back if he does start on PUP.

Dixon's day are numbered, a lot of players can do what he does, and better. Gray and Celek can play TE/FB/H-Back much better, and be good on STs.
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Why Would Williams be the automatic #3 WR, he hasn't done crap in his career to justify it. If Manningham is fully healthy when back, he is the #3 WR, he has earned the spot.

Williams is NOT a LOCK. He has returned 9 punts in is career, hardly a veteran at that aspect,

Agree 100% about Manningham, but I don't think he'll be ready... hence putting him on the PUP. But yes, Mario >>> Kyle.

Look at my breakdown again. There's 7 guys total. They'll probably keep 6 on the roster like last year, and the 7th in Lockette can still live happily on the practice squad.


The scenario where Kyle Williams gets cut is just so far fetched, and that's what I'm arguing against. So much needs to happen for that to come to pass:

• Mario Manningham has to be ready to play Week 1.

• AJ Jenkins & Quinton Patton BOTH have to surpass Kyle Williams on the depth chart.

• Ricardo Lockette has to show he is worth adding to the roster AND surpasses Kyle Williams on the depth chart.

• No one else gets injured.


Highly unlikely.
If there are two players on the team who show themselves to be reliable punt returners, K Williams should be worried. The team is building offense around a QB with one of the strongest arms in the league now and they have to be thinking about at least one or two legitimate down-field threats - the two potential players who can be long threats are Jenkins and Lockette - both have elite speed. Quinton Patton is probably who they see as the possession receiver option if they can't come to terms with Crabtree. So, as unlikely as it may seem, K Williams could end up the odd man out.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
If there are two players on the team who show themselves to be reliable punt returners, K Williams should be worried. The team is building offense around a QB with one of the strongest arms in the league now and they have to be thinking about at least one or two legitimate down-field threats - the two potential players who can be long threats are Jenkins and Lockette - both have elite speed. Quinton Patton is probably who they see as the possession receiver option if they can't come to terms with Crabtree. So, as unlikely as it may seem, K Williams could end up the odd man out.

Read it again. They kept 6 last year. They only have 7 this year, including Lockette.

And Mario is hurt, Patton is a rookie, & Lockette is a PS guy. So you really have only four guys with NFL experience (and one of those is AJ Jenkins).

Why would they cut Kyle Williams, who has two years of experience in the offense, when they can keep Lockette on the PS and therefore keep all 7 guys?

So much has to happen for Kyle to get cut. AJ, Patton, AND Lockette have to beat him out. You know how unlikely that is? All three guys suddenly beasting like that? It's just not gonna happen.
My thinking on the WR front is identical with Nick, although AB (predictably ) makes excellent points as well. At this point (which is a very early one) I assume that incumbents have an edge in the depth chart, hence I'm not yet ready to call Dixon ready to be cut. OTOH, our coverage teams last year were so bad (comparatively) that I could envisage a total clearup in ST and replacement by people who aren't yet on the radar. I have no illusions about Dixons usefulness in offense, although we have always tried to get a short yardage heavy back (e.g. the Jacobs gambit last year). Somehow I doubt that Harbaugh will go with Gire, LMJ and Kendall only, and have Miller unbacked-up. He loves that damn jumbo formation too much. Dixon may be mediocre (or worse), but he's mediocre in so many things, and that in the long run saves a roster spot. But if someone from left field comes in and can do FB backup duties, short yardage back and cover kicks, then sure, Dixon will be gone.

To recap, I believe that everyone thinks we'll carry 8 OL, 7 of whom active in gamedays. 3 QBs and 3 TEs also look to be certain (on gameday too), the only questions being the two QB backups where any permutation of McCoy, Tolzien and Daniels is possible, and 3rd TE, where it might be Celek and it might be someone from left field. So, that makes it 13 spots in the 21-22 offensive players that will be active on gamedays. Let's say it's 22 and defense only dresses 21 (the 3 others being the kicking squad). So that means either 5 WR + 4 RB/FB active, or the other way round. If we go 4RB, that means Frank, Kendall, LMJ (we can assume that his usefulness in the pistol + KR make him a lock) and obviously Miller. Who's the jumbo back? Frank, possibly, but there's no backup FB (no big deal perhaps) and obviously someone else has to pick up the slack of Dixon's ST work. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it's not easy to see at this point. Perhaps try the "Defensive Lineman pretends to be a FB" trick again? Don't go all on me, you know how Harbaugh/Roman love that sh!t

Obviously if we dress only 4 WR (which we didn't do last year, as AB correctly pointed out), again there is a logjam with Crabs, Boldin & Mario (if healthy) locks on paper. The last spot is AJ or Kyle, but who does PR duties if we don't dress/cut Kyle?
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
Also those who think We should go 3 deep at ILB are crazy. Injuries happen, we need a 4th ILB, either wilhoite or moody.

Agreed, I have Dan Skuta (ST ace) and Nick Moody as my two backups.
Originally posted by paulk205:
But if someone from left field comes in and can do FB backup duties, short yardage back and cover kicks, then sure, Dixon will be gone.

Agreed! I currently have FB Alex Debniak winning and backing up Miller but there is a chance FB Jason Schepler may be the better option in short yardage and goal line situations given his enormous size and athleticism...PLUS, he could be used as that extra T on the line as well. Hmmmm....
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,205
QB (3): Kaepernick, McCoy, Tolzien PS: Daniels*
RB (5): Gore, Hunter, James, Dixon, Miller IR: Lattimore*; PS: Schepler
TE (3): Davis, McDonald*, Celek PS: Gray
WR (6): Crabtree, Boldin, Williams, Jenkins, Patton*, Moore IR: Manningham

OT (3): Staley, Davis, Snyder PS: Bykowski*, Marquardt
OG (3): Iupati, Boone, Kilgore
C (2): Goodwin, Looney

DE (4): Smith, McDonald, Carradine*, Dial* PS: Okoye
NT (2): Dorsey, Williams

OLB (5): Smith, Brooks, Haralson, Lemonier*, Fleming
ILB (4): Willis, Bowman, Skuta, Wilhoite PS: Moody*

CB (6): Brown, Rogers, Asomogha, Culliver, Cox, Cooper* PS: Morris
S (4): Reid*, Whitner, Dahl, Spillman PS: Robinson

ST (3): Dawson, Lee, Jennings
Originally posted by GEEK:
QB (3): Kaepernick, McCoy, Tolzien PS: Daniels*
RB (5): Gore, Hunter, James, Dixon, Miller IR: Lattimore*; PS: Schepler
TE (3): Davis, McDonald*, Celek PS: Gray
WR (6): Crabtree, Boldin, Williams, Jenkins, Patton*, Moore IR: Manningham

OT (3): Staley, Davis, Snyder PS: Bykowski*, Marquardt
OG (3): Iupati, Boone, Kilgore
C (2): Goodwin, Looney

DE (4): Smith, McDonald, Carradine*, Dial* PS: Okoye
NT (2): Dorsey, Williams

OLB (5): Smith, Brooks, Haralson, Lemonier*, Fleming
ILB (4): Willis, Bowman, Skuta, Wilhoite PS: Moody*

CB (6): Brown, Rogers, Asomogha, Culliver, Cox, Cooper* PS: Morris
S (4): Reid*, Whitner, Dahl, Spillman PS: Robinson

ST (3): Dawson, Lee, Jennings

I can live with this, but with 2 minor changes, Moody over Wilhoite or Fleming, and Gray over Dixon.

Also I guarantee Marquardt, Okoye, Bykowski, Morris will all have offers to go elsewhere or be claimed. Risky business.
Originally posted by AB83Rules:
I can live with this, but with 2 minor changes, Moody over Wilhoite or Fleming, and Gray over Dixon.

Also I guarantee Marquardt, Okoye, Bykowski, Morris will all have offers to go elsewhere or be claimed. Risky business.

Marquadt could be on the PUP list. I don't think Okoye would displace someone off another roster at cut-downs unless he shows something in a preseason game, and he might not get the chance. Morris looks like he could be special. Cooper looks safer as a PS guy (give him another year to learn the position as he transitions from WR)
Couple things.

We look thin at NT not sure what the plan is there.

Kyle Williams has proven hands (as a WR ) and Jenkins was the Rashaun Woods of the 2012 draft, don't be shocked if he is cut. These 49ers don`t play like we did under Donahue.

What`s the plan at NT, Sopoaga ate up a ton of snaps last year and love him or hate him that is some HEAVY lifting, more 4-3 sets in our future?
......also

We barely have space for our drafted players, don`t expect the Riccardo Lockett`s and Marquise Gray`s of the world to find a roster spot.
Originally posted by NickSh49:
1. "Some are projecting KW as the teams #3. That would be a disaster." • Why would this be a disaster? Kyle would be the #3 receiver on a team that uses lots of two tight end sets. Before all the injuries last year and the year prior, it could also be argued that the 49ers were going receiver-by-committee (Randy Moss was rarely on the field before everyone started getting hurt). But hey, I guess we can pretend to live in a world where Kyle Williams has suddenly digressed to being "a disaster" of an option as the #3 WR. Whatever.

2. "It's not as if he's a lights out punt returner either." • Well besides LaMichael James, there is no one else. And after last year's game vs. Minnesota, everyone was back on the Kyle-as-PR bandwagon. I swear, the zone is never happy with our PR-guy. It's like the guy has to be Devin Hester or he's a failure. The 49ers could have made a big push for Josh Cribbs, but they didn't.

3. "I also believe that Patton has shown enough potential during his college career to be deemed bringing more to the table than Kyle." - You might be right when talking about years to come, but not at the moment. Why do fans always forget about the time it takes for a wide receiver to learn an offense and build chemistry with a quarterback? It's even more true when discussing rookies. I'm sorry, but you're fooling yourself if you think a fourth-rounder in Patton is going to step off the bus, get up to NFL-speed, learn the entire offense, and replace Kyle Williams by September. It's just not realistic. You'd have a stronger argument if you tried to convince me that AJ Jenkins would replace Williams, but even then AJ has barely shown enough to beat out Chad Hall at the moment.

4. "If KW does make the roster, it may be just barely." • Again, why is this the case? Take a look at my breakdown again. You've got Crabs & Boldin ready for Week 1. Mario will probably be on the PUP. There is no one else besides Jeknins that knows the offense. And even if you are somehow and some way correct that Patton beats out Williams on the depth chart, why would they cut Williams? There's no reason to cut him unless Ricardo Lockette suddenly becomes un-benchable. This team kept six receivers last year, and they have the room to do it again with Mario on the PUP & Lockette on the PS.

It just makes no logical sense to think Kyle Williams will be cut, let alone be beat out by Patton or Lockette.

It's all guessing at this point, Nick. You may be right. I just don't think so.

1. It's a disaster because it means that the Niners have regressed in the receivers department since last year. He was #5 last year. He showed NOTHING during the year to warrant a promotion. Moreover he is coming off a ACL injury and has not been able to work out during the off season to improve himself if there was any chance of that happening. Meanwhile Jenkins, who was behind the eight ball last year because of several reasons (as alluded to by Baalke) has had opportunity to grow and by all indications has done so. Jenkins was someone the Niners saw as possessing special talent, there's a much higher likelihood of his breaking out than KW suddenly elevating his game. If Jenkins cannot supplant KW, he would have to be considered a bust and a disasterous first round pick.

2. KW was a serviceable punt returner. Nothing special. I was never down on him but neither was I high on the guy either. He's simply . . . meh. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that the NIners could find several players on the squad who could do tPR job as well, and better, this off season. Patton? Just because a player can handle the job is no reason not to seek improvement. I believe that the Niners will do that.

3. Players mature at different rates. Some rookies are ready to make a diference immediately. See Marques Colston, C Y Hilton, Peirre Garcon, that kid with the Buccaneers (forget his name, Williams?), etc. I believe that Patton shows that confidence. And, unlike Jenkins, is coming in healthy and should not fall behind.

4. We're not even considering some of the other receiver candidates. Daniels, for example. Harbaugh called him a "Swiss army knife" and will probaly give him every opportunity to return punts and play slot.

5. Remember, KW is coming off a ACL tear. What I'd like to see, and it's not anything personal against KW, but it would indicate GROWTH on the Niners roster: Crabtree, Boldin, AJ Jenkins, Lockette, Patton. Mario starts the season on the PUP. Ideally, the team upgrades its receiving corp in terms of speed and playmaking ability. Under this scenario KW may barely make the squad and be well down in the depth chart. It's entirely plausible. There may also be A N Other who could spring a surprise.

6. Alternatively, KW could be traded.
Originally posted by sick9erfan:
Couple things.

We look thin at NT not sure what the plan is there.

What`s the plan at NT, Sopoaga ate up a ton of snaps last year and love him or hate him that is some HEAVY lifting, more 4-3 sets in our future?

I have a different perspective than most on my 53...right now. http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/171861-team-needs-updates/page17/

That sad, regarding NT, I have a couple points:
  • Lamar Divens (6'3" 340) may make this team AND the 53 but will only be activated against power running teams. He could be used in short yardage and goal line situations as well. Otherwise, we might see a heavy rotation of Dorsey/I.Williams. Will it be successful? If not, it may be good to have the big boy backing up as our space eater.
  • Scheme is the Theme - I do envision us doing many more big, 4-man DL fronts this year for added run defense and additional pressures.
And yes, the NT position was on the field about 50% of the time. Sopoaga took roughly 33% of those snaps.
Originally posted by Rsrkshn:
Originally posted by NickSh49:
1. "Some are projecting KW as the teams #3. That would be a disaster." • Why would this be a disaster? Kyle would be the #3 receiver on a team that uses lots of two tight end sets. Before all the injuries last year and the year prior, it could also be argued that the 49ers were going receiver-by-committee (Randy Moss was rarely on the field before everyone started getting hurt). But hey, I guess we can pretend to live in a world where Kyle Williams has suddenly digressed to being "a disaster" of an option as the #3 WR. Whatever.

2. "It's not as if he's a lights out punt returner either." • Well besides LaMichael James, there is no one else. And after last year's game vs. Minnesota, everyone was back on the Kyle-as-PR bandwagon. I swear, the zone is never happy with our PR-guy. It's like the guy has to be Devin Hester or he's a failure. The 49ers could have made a big push for Josh Cribbs, but they didn't.

3. "I also believe that Patton has shown enough potential during his college career to be deemed bringing more to the table than Kyle." - You might be right when talking about years to come, but not at the moment. Why do fans always forget about the time it takes for a wide receiver to learn an offense and build chemistry with a quarterback? It's even more true when discussing rookies. I'm sorry, but you're fooling yourself if you think a fourth-rounder in Patton is going to step off the bus, get up to NFL-speed, learn the entire offense, and replace Kyle Williams by September. It's just not realistic. You'd have a stronger argument if you tried to convince me that AJ Jenkins would replace Williams, but even then AJ has barely shown enough to beat out Chad Hall at the moment.

4. "If KW does make the roster, it may be just barely." • Again, why is this the case? Take a look at my breakdown again. You've got Crabs & Boldin ready for Week 1. Mario will probably be on the PUP. There is no one else besides Jeknins that knows the offense. And even if you are somehow and some way correct that Patton beats out Williams on the depth chart, why would they cut Williams? There's no reason to cut him unless Ricardo Lockette suddenly becomes un-benchable. This team kept six receivers last year, and they have the room to do it again with Mario on the PUP & Lockette on the PS.

It just makes no logical sense to think Kyle Williams will be cut, let alone be beat out by Patton or Lockette.

It's all guessing at this point, Nick. You may be right. I just don't think so.

1. It's a disaster because it means that the Niners have regressed in the receivers department since last year. He was #5 last year. He showed NOTHING during the year to warrant a promotion. Moreover he is coming off a ACL injury and has not been able to work out during the off season to improve himself if there was any chance of that happening. Meanwhile Jenkins, who was behind the eight ball last year because of several reasons (as alluded to by Baalke) has had opportunity to grow and by all indications has done so. Jenkins was someone the Niners saw as possessing special talent, there's a much higher likelihood of his breaking out than KW suddenly elevating his game. If Jenkins cannot supplant KW, he would have to be considered a bust and a disasterous first round pick.

2. KW was a serviceable punt returner. Nothing special. I was never down on him but neither was I high on the guy either. He's simply . . . meh. If I was a betting man, I'd wager that the NIners could find several players on the squad who could do tPR job as well, and better, this off season. Patton? Just because a player can handle the job is no reason not to seek improvement. I believe that the Niners will do that.

3. Players mature at different rates. Some rookies are ready to make a diference immediately. See Marques Colston, C Y Hilton, Peirre Garcon, that kid with the Buccaneers (forget his name, Williams?), etc. I believe that Patton shows that confidence. And, unlike Jenkins, is coming in healthy and should not fall behind.

4. We're not even considering some of the other receiver candidates. Daniels, for example. Harbaugh called him a "Swiss army knife" and will probaly give him every opportunity to return punts and play slot.

5. Remember, KW is coming off a ACL tear. What I'd like to see, and it's not anything personal against KW, but it would indicate GROWTH on the Niners roster: Crabtree, Boldin, AJ Jenkins, Lockette, Patton. Mario starts the season on the PUP. Ideally, the team upgrades its receiving corp in terms of speed and playmaking ability. Under this scenario KW may barely make the squad and be well down in the depth chart. It's entirely plausible. There may also be A N Other who could spring a surprise.

6. Alternatively, KW could be traded.

I still don't really agree with your logic, BUT you do bring up a good point about BJ Daniels (though I believe he'll be a practice squad guy with high upside due to his versatility).