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The Quinton Patton Tank of Truth

Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
O Rly?

I didn't know Demaryius Thomas, Eric Decker, Wes Welker, Jordy Nelson, Randall Cobb, James Jones, and Greg Jennings were no name WRs. Oh wait, they're not. Most of them were 1st and 2nd round draft picks. Jones was a 3rd. New England traded a 2nd to get Welker from Miami. All these guys were highly regarded.

You need quality WRs to help a quality QB. It's not rocket science.


Really? Plenty of first second round washouts in the NFL (i.e. Jenkins/Baldwin ....etc).

Well, lets take a look at the stats of say Thomas:
http://www.nfl.com/player/demaryiusthomas/497328/careerstats

Can you guess the year Peyton came to town? Not hard to spot.

How about Eric Decker?

http://www.nfl.com/player/ericdecker/497284/careerstats

His production doubled.

As far as the cheeseheads go, I can tell you that there is not one in your list that was with another team, or acquired from another organization. Only jennings has left, this year. That's it. No mvement from other clubs at all. Obviously, that's the kind of chemistry that is needed to build a deft passing attack. I think that shows something about the differences in coaching philosophy between McCarthy and what we have shown so far.

You miss the point. You need a good QB AND good WRs.

Of course their production increased with better QB play. That doesn't mean they were no names before that, because they clearly weren't. Talent is talent. Manning and Rodgers are great, but if you replace their receivers with street FAs, there will be struggles.

I don't know if I completely buy into this philosophy. Patriots come to mind, so do the Steelers. Anytime those players go somewhere else, they're not as "good" as they were previously. I would say rather that you need a good game planner - a WR coach who understand routes and can co-design the passing game with the OC - someone who knows the strengths of his players and can help design gameplans to accentuate their strengths. My problem is that regardless of who I see out there - they all run basically the same boring predictable routes with little variation in the passing game plan. I honestly feel separation is achieved both through talent but more consistently through SCHEME and that's where we're lacking. I agree wholeheartedly as it's been said previously .....


We need a WR coach on the same level that Jim Leavitt is the LB coach - who at one time was considered NFL HC candidate. If the development and play of our LBs were anywhere near what it could be for our WRs, the passing game would be incredible.
Originally posted by Ninefan56:
Any word on his healing? Any time that they expect him back?

Supposedly he'll be back by early December.
[ Edited by Phoenix49ers on Oct 10, 2013 at 12:09 PM ]
Thanks phoenix.
Any updates on how he is doing? please lord let this man come back soon and ball out
Did he break his foot or something?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Did he break his foot or something?

Yes, fractured it vs the Rams
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Just hold your breath, cross your fingers and hope that Boldin doesn't fall victim to the WR curse.


Boldin is too busy being the hammer, opposing players are nails.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I don't know if I completely buy into this philosophy. Patriots come to mind, so do the Steelers. Anytime those players go somewhere else, they're not as "good" as they were previously. I would say rather that you need a good game planner - a WR coach who understand routes and can co-design the passing game with the OC - someone who knows the strengths of his players and can help design gameplans to accentuate their strengths. My problem is that regardless of who I see out there - they all run basically the same boring predictable routes with little variation in the passing game plan. I honestly feel separation is achieved both through talent but more consistently through SCHEME and that's where we're lacking. I agree wholeheartedly as it's been said previously .....


We need a WR coach on the same level that Jim Leavitt is the LB coach - who at one time was considered NFL HC candidate. If the development and play of our LBs were anywhere near what it could be for our WRs, the passing game would be incredible.

THIS ABOVE -
1. Watch our passing scheme closely, all the routes are curved - very few hard breaks, almost ZERO - yes ZERO - double moves. It is confounding that this is a passing attack being played at the NFL level.

2. When your scheme is this basic and predictable it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get separation because the DBs can scheme to anticipate routes - playing man and playing zone the DBs are in position. There are only two hopes for separation A.) speed - a la VD, of B.) Defensive mistake. This is why VD is the only real threat and when he get's the ball he is often wide open - either there was a Def mistake and he get's free or he is running away from a guy.

3. This basic scheme makes it nearly impossible also for the QB to throw the ball early to "a spot" - the DBs can anticipate the route and spot - a la CK's early interceptions - DBs were camping on routes.

This is why the 9ers pass offense looks so horrid - it is amateur. Last week, PManning stepped back to throw a bubble screen to the receiver on the outside; but instead of the receivers in front of the screen blocking, one of them ran right by the CB and caught a long pass. The bubble screen was a complete fake out of the defense - it was genius. Have you EVER seen such cleverness by the 9ers passing game??

The 9ers offense is 3 notches above Singletary's smash mouth football - it's smash mouth with a highly developed running scheme. But the pass offense is just plain poor. West Coast offense my b***.
[ Edited by HearstFan on Oct 19, 2013 at 8:37 AM ]
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I don't know if I completely buy into this philosophy. Patriots come to mind, so do the Steelers. Anytime those players go somewhere else, they're not as "good" as they were previously. I would say rather that you need a good game planner - a WR coach who understand routes and can co-design the passing game with the OC - someone who knows the strengths of his players and can help design gameplans to accentuate their strengths. My problem is that regardless of who I see out there - they all run basically the same boring predictable routes with little variation in the passing game plan. I honestly feel separation is achieved both through talent but more consistently through SCHEME and that's where we're lacking. I agree wholeheartedly as it's been said previously .....


We need a WR coach on the same level that Jim Leavitt is the LB coach - who at one time was considered NFL HC candidate. If the development and play of our LBs were anywhere near what it could be for our WRs, the passing game would be incredible.

THIS ABOVE -
1. Watch our passing scheme closely, all the routes are curved - very few hard breaks, almost ZERO - yes ZERO - double moves. It is confounding that this is a passing attack being played at the NFL level.

2. When your scheme is this basic and predictable it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get separation because the DBs can scheme to anticipate routes - playing man and playing zone the DBs are in position. There are only two hopes for separation A.) speed - a la VD, of B.) Defensive mistake. This is why VD is the only real threat and when he get's the ball he is often wide open - either there was a Def mistake and he get's free or he is running away from a guy.

3. This basic scheme makes it nearly impossible also for the QB to throw the ball early to "a spot" - the DBs can anticipate the route and spot - a la CK's early interceptions - DBs were camping on routes.

This is why the 9ers pass offense looks so horrid - it is amateur. Last week, PManning stepped back to throw a bubble screen to the receiver on the outside; but instead of the receivers in front of the screen blocking, one of them ran right by the CB and caught a long pass. The bubble screen was a complete fake out of the defense - it was genius. Have you EVER seen such cleverness by the 9ers passing game??

The 9ers offense is 3 notches above Singletary's smash mouth football - it's smash mouth with a highly developed running scheme. But the pass offense is just plain poor. West Coast offense my b***.

I agree. 99% of the 49ers creativity is rushing plays, and it's obvious. Very, very little creativity in the pass game, and even then, most of the creative passing plays are just disguised as running plays.

Like you, I would like to see the 49ers actually line up in a passing formation and fool the opponent with the call or design SOMEthing that shows they know how to scheme to create space, etc.
Originally posted by HearstFan:
THIS ABOVE -
1. Watch our passing scheme closely, all the routes are curved - very few hard breaks, almost ZERO - yes ZERO - double moves. It is confounding that this is a passing attack being played at the NFL level.

2. When your scheme is this basic and predictable it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get separation because the DBs can scheme to anticipate routes - playing man and playing zone the DBs are in position. There are only two hopes for separation A.) speed - a la VD, of B.) Defensive mistake. This is why VD is the only real threat and when he get's the ball he is often wide open - either there was a Def mistake and he get's free or he is running away from a guy.

3. This basic scheme makes it nearly impossible also for the QB to throw the ball early to "a spot" - the DBs can anticipate the route and spot - a la CK's early interceptions - DBs were camping on routes.

This is why the 9ers pass offense looks so horrid - it is amateur. Last week, PManning stepped back to throw a bubble screen to the receiver on the outside; but instead of the receivers in front of the screen blocking, one of them ran right by the CB and caught a long pass. The bubble screen was a complete fake out of the defense - it was genius. Have you EVER seen such cleverness by the 9ers passing game??

The 9ers offense is 3 notches above Singletary's smash mouth football - it's smash mouth with a highly developed running scheme. But the pass offense is just plain poor. West Coast offense my b***.

Isn't it someone else that's responsible for the 49ers pass plays? Perhaps Greg Roman isn't the larger problem, but its the passing coordinator, and maybe even the WR coach. I still wish they would have one guy to put it all together. That might create some more continuity as well as give Kaep enough time to call audibles because the plays should come in quicker. It hasn't been as much of a problem lately, but it's still a problem. Perhaps we would see as much creativity in the passing offense as we do in the run game if Greg Roman was over it all. Or just get an OC that can handle the job.
Originally posted by OnTheClock:
I agree. 99% of the 49ers creativity is rushing plays, and it's obvious. Very, very little creativity in the pass game, and even then, most of the creative passing plays are just disguised as running plays.

Like you, I would like to see the 49ers actually line up in a passing formation and fool the opponent with the call or design SOMEthing that shows they know how to scheme to create space, etc.
I concur. Every facet of the team looks well coached except the passing offense. Roman can coordinate the running game, but the passing offense is nowhere near teams like the Broncos, and Saints. I am actually surprised this has not been addressed. I would love to see Baalke and Harbaugh asked about this, and why they haven't brought on a different OC or at least a passing game consultant. It is obvious to fans that the passing attack is not good enough to beat top NFL defenses.
Originally posted by Florida49er:
I concur. Every facet of the team looks well coached except the passing offense. Roman can coordinate the running game, but the passing offense is nowhere near teams like the Broncos, and Saints. I am actually surprised this has not been addressed. I would love to see Baalke and Harbaugh asked about this, and why they haven't brought on a different OC or at least a passing game consultant. It is obvious to fans that the passing attack is not good enough to beat top NFL defenses.

Hopefully after this year, it will be addressed. Roman can come up with incredibly creative rushing plays for the running game but it's obvious he knows next to nothing coordinating an explosive passing attack or the passing game consultant is a complete blunder. I think it's a combination of the two. I've put blame on the receivers under-performing and Kap's lack of experience when it comes to the poor execution of our passing game on the field but even when we get reinforcements for the receiving core and Kap matures as a QB, I've realized that our passing offense still won't be on the level of the Broncos or Saints because whoever is consulting the passing plays lacks vision, creativity, and is quite predictable.

Passing attack fails terribly against elite and even above average defenses. I like Roman, he's very useful and key when it comes to designing great plays for the running game. I just think we just need to bring in a better WR coach and a passing game coordinator to help design a superior and efficient passing game. If the passing attack can become as creative and explosive as our running game, we'll be good to go.
[ Edited by NeonNiner on Oct 19, 2013 at 11:41 AM ]
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
I don't know if I completely buy into this philosophy. Patriots come to mind, so do the Steelers. Anytime those players go somewhere else, they're not as "good" as they were previously. I would say rather that you need a good game planner - a WR coach who understand routes and can co-design the passing game with the OC - someone who knows the strengths of his players and can help design gameplans to accentuate their strengths. My problem is that regardless of who I see out there - they all run basically the same boring predictable routes with little variation in the passing game plan. I honestly feel separation is achieved both through talent but more consistently through SCHEME and that's where we're lacking. I agree wholeheartedly as it's been said previously .....


We need a WR coach on the same level that Jim Leavitt is the LB coach - who at one time was considered NFL HC candidate. If the development and play of our LBs were anywhere near what it could be for our WRs, the passing game would be incredible.

THIS ABOVE -
1. Watch our passing scheme closely, all the routes are curved - very few hard breaks, almost ZERO - yes ZERO - double moves. It is confounding that this is a passing attack being played at the NFL level.

2. When your scheme is this basic and predictable it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to get separation because the DBs can scheme to anticipate routes - playing man and playing zone the DBs are in position. There are only two hopes for separation A.) speed - a la VD, of B.) Defensive mistake. This is why VD is the only real threat and when he get's the ball he is often wide open - either there was a Def mistake and he get's free or he is running away from a guy.

3. This basic scheme makes it nearly impossible also for the QB to throw the ball early to "a spot" - the DBs can anticipate the route and spot - a la CK's early interceptions - DBs were camping on routes.

This is why the 9ers pass offense looks so horrid - it is amateur. Last week, PManning stepped back to throw a bubble screen to the receiver on the outside; but instead of the receivers in front of the screen blocking, one of them ran right by the CB and caught a long pass. The bubble screen was a complete fake out of the defense - it was genius. Have you EVER seen such cleverness by the 9ers passing game??

The 9ers offense is 3 notches above Singletary's smash mouth football - it's smash mouth with a highly developed running scheme. But the pass offense is just plain poor. West Coast offense my b***.

Agree! Painful to watch passing schemes are painful to watch! Not sure Williams or Moore would excel on another team...but I would bet they would on the NEPatriots or in Denver. More because of the systems than just a better QB...or both.

A couple of years ago I complained that Crabtree seemed to always run behind the defenders instead of cutting in front of them. Then when Harbaugh took over he seemed to change and the routes over the middle began to open for him as they had in college. I see this as an example of coaching...can't believe MC would just forget this for two years.

So it would seem to be likely the route problems are system or coaching based. Without being on the field during practice we can't know for sure but it sure seems like a persistent problem.
Passing attack will remaineffective and safe with less turnovers. Jim is of the Schembechler offense and the Giants and the Bears of the 80's. Lindy Infante had some teaching for Jim, but I wish there was more that Jim had taken from Infante in the passing game.
There has been literally zero recent news about Patton. Based on the type of injury, he could be back a few weeks after the Panthers game but nothing has been said yet, anywhere.