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The Quinton Patton Tank of Truth

Originally posted by dj43:
It is good news that this is a metatarsal bone. Those usually do heal well. However, they can also become problematic if not allowed to heal fully. Because of their location in proximity to other bones, it is often difficult to tell if they have fully healed. You just can't always tell from an X-ray. The player may say they are pain free and the bone looks healed from what can be seen. Then they go out and putting full force on the foot and the partially healed bone breaks again. I have seen this in soccer players on a couple of occasions and the result was that the player missed months instead of weeks. I trust the 49er med staff will err on the side of safety and long term health.

Patton is likely to be out 6 weeks. In the meantime, this gives Baldwin a chance to develop and contribute. He should be able to take the pressure off the decision to hurry Patton back.

Just my thoughts based on personal experience with such injuries.

Are you an orthopedic doctor?
.
[ Edited by OregonDuckNiner on Sep 28, 2013 at 9:51 AM ]
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
When he was thrown to the ground by a DB it disturbed me...too light? Not strong enough? But then you could consider he got under a DBs skin enough to draw a penalty.

I really like this guy and believe he will be a valuable receiver. He has what Williams doesn't...the ability to get open and catch passes in a wide radius. The injuries are unfortunate but they happen. Willis has been out of games the past couple of years but I don't hear guys calling him names for it. Just happens in a rough game.

We need to quit comparing other receivers to Williams. Patton has his game. Williams has his...and they are different.

Williams is very quick in tight spaces. Writers have noted in practice that none of the DBs can consistently cover him out of the slot in those quick routes.

What he can't do is out run DBs in open space.

Roman needs to put him on routes that utilize HIS talents, not on routes Roman would LIKE to have run but are not within his ability. This is a criticism I have of Harbaugh/Roman in general. They tend to stubbornly install game plans and play calls that suit THEIR ideas but are not the best for the players. The Ram game was both a breath of fresh air and a demonstration of my point: After two games of getting their butt kicked by trying to use tricks and gimmicks instead of the solid I-formation based run game that had been such a winner in 2011 and 2012, they went back to what fits the abilities of the OL and Frank Gore, and we won. (of course playing the Rams helped)

Williams can be a useful #3 receiver on this team if used properly.

This.

And what, we've seen Patton thrown to like 5-6 times, including the preseason, and you can already determine that he has the ability to get open and catch passes in a wide radius? I remember two catches were on WR screens, one was a slant route that got broken up, and another one was on a broken play where Kap left the pocket. It was nice that he got open in the back of the endzone, but people here treated that like he was the second coming of Rice (yes, I heard that comparison by a few people)

I swear, the zone picks favorites and crowns them even before they've shown anything. I really like the kid and I hope he develops into a good WR, but he hasn't shown us s**t yet. I've got a bad feeling that this year will be one to forget for Patton cause this injury might keep him out awhile, and once he comes back, Manningham and Crabs might be too. Let's hope I'm wrong though.
Originally posted by dj43:
We need to quit comparing other receivers to Williams. Patton has his game. Williams has his...and they are different.

Williams is very quick in tight spaces. Writers have noted in practice that none of the DBs can consistently cover him out of the slot in those quick routes.

What he can't do is out run DBs in open space.

Roman needs to put him on routes that utilize HIS talents, not on routes Roman would LIKE to have run but are not within his ability. This is a criticism I have of Harbaugh/Roman in general. They tend to stubbornly install game plans and play calls that suit THEIR ideas but are not the best for the players. The Ram game was both a breath of fresh air and a demonstration of my point: After two games of getting their butt kicked by trying to use tricks and gimmicks instead of the solid I-formation based run game that had been such a winner in 2011 and 2012, they went back to what fits the abilities of the OL and Frank Gore, and we won. (of course playing the Rams helped)

Williams can be a useful #3 receiver on this team if used properly.

Does it matter if KW can get open during practice? I agree that none of the WRs are being helped much by the coaching staff or scheme. That's just they way they play though and it may not change any time soon. Boldin gets open because he is very physical and can create his own space. He can also outfight DBs for the ball...perfect for the current system. Patton has some of that ability, but I do not see KW being able to create separation without help...motion, picks, brushes, whatever!

My preference is different than my perception of what is likely to happen. Would I like them to use Williams effectively? Yes! Have they? No. So, it is better to find a guy who fits if they won't adjust. Sadly, I've given up on their willingness to adjust...but hope I'm wrong! I liked Williams ability to flash through a slant and this seems to be his strength...just doesn't happen or CK doesn't find him quickly enough...
Originally posted by OregonDuckNiner:
This.

And what, we've seen Patton thrown to like 5-6 times, including the preseason, and you can already determine that he has the ability to get open and catch passes in a wide radius? I remember two catches were on WR screens, one was a slant route that got broken up, and another one was on a broken play where Kap left the pocket. It was nice that he got open in the back of the endzone, but people here treated that like he was the second coming of Rice (yes, I heard that comparison by a few people)

I swear, the zone picks favorites and crowns them even before they've shown anything. I really like the kid and I hope he develops into a good WR, but he hasn't shown us s**t yet. I've got a bad feeling that this year will be one to forget for Patton cause this injury might keep him out awhile, and once he comes back, Manningham and Crabs might be too. Let's hope I'm wrong though.

No, I have no idea if Patton will succeed...but I have watched Williams not succeed given the chance...or perhaps lack of chance due to scheme/plays called. Watching the type of player who succeeds in this offense I'm left with the notion that a WR must be able to create separation on their own. I have supported Williams in the past but have lost hope that the offense will start using creative means to get these guys some chances. He's been working with Roman for two years and Roman still doesn't know what he can do...really?

9 receptions in four games for 87 yards...for a WR who has been in the system for two years, working with this QB for two years...yes...I'm jumping the gun. If I'm wrong...great! Good for the team, good for the fans of the team...but I doubt it.
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Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by dj43:
It is good news that this is a metatarsal bone. Those usually do heal well. However, they can also become problematic if not allowed to heal fully. Because of their location in proximity to other bones, it is often difficult to tell if they have fully healed. You just can't always tell from an X-ray. The player may say they are pain free and the bone looks healed from what can be seen. Then they go out and putting full force on the foot and the partially healed bone breaks again. I have seen this in soccer players on a couple of occasions and the result was that the player missed months instead of weeks. I trust the 49er med staff will err on the side of safety and long term health.

Patton is likely to be out 6 weeks. In the meantime, this gives Baldwin a chance to develop and contribute. He should be able to take the pressure off the decision to hurry Patton back.

Just my thoughts based on personal experience with such injuries.

Are you an orthopedic doctor?

I am a pedorthist (one who makes orthotic devices {insoles} to support the foot). I have worked in a variety of sports (ski, hiking, soccer, baseball) for many years. Much of that time I worked for a podiatric laboratory that makes custom devices to support feet. During that time I have had a good deal of experience working with a wide variety of foot and lower extremity injuries. Through all that, the interaction with other areas of medicine has taught me a great deal beyond just my particular specialty.
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by dj43:
It is good news that this is a metatarsal bone. Those usually do heal well. However, they can also become problematic if not allowed to heal fully. Because of their location in proximity to other bones, it is often difficult to tell if they have fully healed. You just can't always tell from an X-ray. The player may say they are pain free and the bone looks healed from what can be seen. Then they go out and putting full force on the foot and the partially healed bone breaks again. I have seen this in soccer players on a couple of occasions and the result was that the player missed months instead of weeks. I trust the 49er med staff will err on the side of safety and long term health.

Patton is likely to be out 6 weeks. In the meantime, this gives Baldwin a chance to develop and contribute. He should be able to take the pressure off the decision to hurry Patton back.

Just my thoughts based on personal experience with such injuries.

Are you an orthopedic doctor?

I am a pedorthist (one who makes orthotic devices {insoles} to support the foot). I have worked in a variety of sports (ski, hiking, soccer, baseball) for many years. Much of that time I worked for a podiatric laboratory that makes custom devices to support feet. During that time I have had a good deal of experience working with a wide variety of foot and lower extremity injuries. Through all that, the interaction with other areas of medicine has taught me a great deal beyond just my particular specialty.
  • dj43
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Falling in love with something the way we WANT it to be usually clouds reality.

We all know we desperately need WR help. Patton is a new guy who has shown just a TINY glimpse of what we need. So, we LOVE him. Good. I hope he becomes all that BUT, we haven't seen anything close to what we need to see to say he will be great, much less even good.

Williams is a small, quick guy who has shown the ability to work in tight spaces but not against big, tall, strong DBs. However, what we usually see of him is trying to get behind a tall DB, or working the sidelines against a DB who is also usually bigger. None of those situations play to his strength.

Now don't jump the gun here but...Williams is more on the pattern of a Wes Welker. Welker is small and quick. Brady/Manning rarely put him in places where he had to compete vertically or on pure speed alone. Instead, he works the close zones, often against LBs or safeties or a CB, where rubs, picks, bunches allow his quickness to work against a bigger, less quick defender. That is Welker's strength, and it is Williams strength as well.

The problem is, Harbaugh has never shown any affinity for that kind of routes, and route runners. Instead he wants big, strong WRs that can block for his preferred power running game, and hopefully, be a good receiver as well. This is where I come completely out of patience with Harbaugh. "Play to the strength of your players, NOT your PREFERENCE as to the type of game style." Right now we have a power run game when they feed Gore out of the I. We do not have ANY receivers, other than Boldin that can out fight a strong DB. So run plays that fit the WRs we have. Whether that is Patton or Williams, neither of them will outrun very many DBs, nor will they out fight them in the air. Run the rubs, picks, screens, bunches that maximize their quickness. Run the short routes over the middle that will not only give the QB a quick, safe option against pressure but will also spread the defense to open up the outside and deep zones for the guys who can compete well on those routes. Williams and Patton can be the first group but not the second. They just don't have that size and skill set, but they can be valuable.

What I see from Harbaugh/Roman is a stubborn, yes, even arrogant attitude much of the time. They chose a guy with a cannon arm that could gun the ball down the field unlike any other over a guy who was extremely effective at using those short zones. So now, when we have some guys who COULD run those short routes effectively, they are not used that way. It looks to me like pure stubbornness. They won't use the short routes because to do that would validate the effectiveness of Alex Smith which runs counter to the move they made to Kaepernick.

What they should be doing is teaching Kaepernick to use those short zones with touch. This would compliment his deep ball ability and make him even more effective when he does throw the deep ball. Instead, in all three of these last 3 games, CK has REPEATEDLY passed up open receivers in short zones in favor of the longer, and yes, less safe pass. Those zones are where both Williams and Patton could be used effectively. I'm hoping but not holding my breath.
  • dj43
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Originally posted by 9NERNATE:
Originally posted by dj43:
Originally posted by SanDiego49er:
Originally posted by dj43:
It is good news that this is a metatarsal bone. Those usually do heal well. However, they can also become problematic if not allowed to heal fully. Because of their location in proximity to other bones, it is often difficult to tell if they have fully healed. You just can't always tell from an X-ray. The player may say they are pain free and the bone looks healed from what can be seen. Then they go out and putting full force on the foot and the partially healed bone breaks again. I have seen this in soccer players on a couple of occasions and the result was that the player missed months instead of weeks. I trust the 49er med staff will err on the side of safety and long term health.

Patton is likely to be out 6 weeks. In the meantime, this gives Baldwin a chance to develop and contribute. He should be able to take the pressure off the decision to hurry Patton back.

Just my thoughts based on personal experience with such injuries.

Are you an orthopedic doctor?

I am a pedorthist (one who makes orthotic devices {insoles} to support the foot). I have worked in a variety of sports (ski, hiking, soccer, baseball) for many years. Much of that time I worked for a podiatric laboratory that makes custom devices to support feet. During that time I have had a good deal of experience working with a wide variety of foot and lower extremity injuries. Through all that, the interaction with other areas of medicine has taught me a great deal beyond just my particular specialty.

I know. Very strange.
Originally posted by dj43:
Falling in love with something the way we WANT it to be usually clouds reality.

[Edited:]What I see from Harbaugh/Roman is a stubborn, yes, even arrogant attitude much of the time. They chose a guy with a cannon arm that could gun the ball down the field unlike any other over a guy who was extremely effective at using those short zones. So now, when we have some guys who COULD run those short routes effectively, they are not used that way. It looks to me like pure stubbornness. They won't use the short routes because to do that would validate the effectiveness of Alex Smith which runs counter to the move they made to Kaepernick.
[Edited]
What they should be doing is teaching Kaepernick to use those short zones with touch. This would compliment his deep ball ability and make him even more effective when he does throw the deep ball. Instead, in all three of these last 3 games, CK has REPEATEDLY passed up open receivers in short zones in favor of the longer, and yes, less safe pass. Those zones are where both Williams and Patton could be used effectively. I'm hoping but not holding my breath.

Falling in love with Patton? No, it's more a matter that his talents seem more attuned to the system being used. Many have been clamoring for Baldwin or Moore, which would also be logical...big guys who can block or take guys deep to get them out of the way.

So, if Williams is not the type of WR they can use effectively... Are they really that stubborn or are they not ready to make a switch to a guy less seasoned in the system? To me, Williams seems like the type of guy suited for many of the traditional WCO routes...if he runs them tightly enough. Just not the way they want to play him.
We are really making it easy for Seattle.
Originally posted by smithgdwg:
We are really making it easy for Seattle.

he'll be back. i think by the time we play seattle all our receivers should be back
  • dj43
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Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by dj43:
Falling in love with something the way we WANT it to be usually clouds reality.

[Edited:]What I see from Harbaugh/Roman is a stubborn, yes, even arrogant attitude much of the time. They chose a guy with a cannon arm that could gun the ball down the field unlike any other over a guy who was extremely effective at using those short zones. So now, when we have some guys who COULD run those short routes effectively, they are not used that way. It looks to me like pure stubbornness. They won't use the short routes because to do that would validate the effectiveness of Alex Smith which runs counter to the move they made to Kaepernick.
[Edited]
What they should be doing is teaching Kaepernick to use those short zones with touch. This would compliment his deep ball ability and make him even more effective when he does throw the deep ball. Instead, in all three of these last 3 games, CK has REPEATEDLY passed up open receivers in short zones in favor of the longer, and yes, less safe pass. Those zones are where both Williams and Patton could be used effectively. I'm hoping but not holding my breath.

Falling in love with Patton? No, it's more a matter that his talents seem more attuned to the system being used. Many have been clamoring for Baldwin or Moore, which would also be logical...big guys who can block or take guys deep to get them out of the way.

So, if Williams is not the type of WR they can use effectively... Are they really that stubborn or are they not ready to make a switch to a guy less seasoned in the system? To me, Williams seems like the type of guy suited for many of the traditional WCO routes...if he runs them tightly enough. Just not the way they want to play him.

...and that is my problem. They have a guy that they could use to make the passing game more effective but their stubbornness prevents them from doing so.
Originally posted by dj43:
...and that is my problem. They have a guy that they could use to make the passing game more effective but their stubbornness prevents them from doing so.

Guess I've resolved to accept the Harbaugh version of the WCO! When he was hired I talked to some Stanford fans and they all talked about the power running game. Not one of them talked about a clever passing attack...or any passing attack. So I decided to love the team with it's new approach and try not to dwell on the past...like I could actually do that!
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Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by dj43:
...and that is my problem. They have a guy that they could use to make the passing game more effective but their stubbornness prevents them from doing so.

Guess I've resolved to accept the Harbaugh version of the WCO! When he was hired I talked to some Stanford fans and they all talked about the power running game. Not one of them talked about a clever passing attack...or any passing attack. So I decided to love the team with it's new approach and try not to dwell on the past...like I could actually do that!
Yep, me too.

Harbaugh's version of the WCO isn't WCO. He has given lip service to Bill Walsh and what a great mentor he was, but he is far closer to Bo Schembechler than Bill Walsh. In fact, his offense would be unrecognizable to Walsh.

In the end, I really don't care which he runs as long as the team wins. To that point, when Harbaugh arrived this roster was largely filled with players in the Mike Nolan/Mike Singletary "impose our will on the ground" mode and pass if we are forced to do so. Nolan came out of the Jamal Lewis/Trent Dilfer Baltimore mold. He wanted a herd of bulldozers in the OL, a RB that could pound along behind them, and a QB that just didn't lose the game. Baltimore won a SB with that with Nolan as DC and he brought that vision here. To match the vision, we drafted a bunch of huge OL who could run block all day but were not particularly adept at pass protection. That is the roster Harbaugh inherited, and for the most part, it matches well with his Bo Schembechler heritage. Consequently, we aren't seeing anything close to a WCO style attack.

In a true WCO, both Williams and Patton could be very effective going in motion or coming out of the slot where opponents could not just put a big body on them and prevent them from getting into the pass route. Walsh would love to compliment those two quick guys with Baldwin and Boldin, both of whom have the strength to battle big DBs in man coverage. Right now, Williams out of the slot, with B & B outside and Vernon Davis at TE would make a pretty darn good receiving corp in a true WCO. The question is: do Harbaugh and Roman even know what that looks like?