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Niners select Tank Carradine

Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I don't get it. Now a days rokkie contracts are 4 years, lets say this Tank misses and red shirts this year, what happens next year in 2014 if he has just a so so "rookie" year? What i'm saying is I think the 49ers shoulda waited til round 3 for this guy and if he was gone by then then so be it. This guy wont see the field this season. Another draft pick since 12' that wont contribute as a Rookie. Coulda had DE Margus Hunt who is bing called a "Star" so far in Camp.

Not even week one and you're calling him a bust.

Calm your boner for Hunt.


I'm not calling Tank a bust. Don't twist my words. In my mock drafts I had us taking Hunt with our #61 2nd rounder. I like Hunt, I personally feel is is and will be the better player but my opinion don't count. Tank may very well be a force but as far as the 1st 2 years of their careers I'd almost bet that Hunt will outshine an injured DE drafted 40th overall? I didn't like the move then and I really don't like the move now? What happens if cowboy or Aldon go down now? We'll be back in the same boat as last December because we have to wait for a Red Shirt hurt DE who may or maynot pan out in year 2 or 3 of his 4 year deal.
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I don't get it. Now a days rokkie contracts are 4 years, lets say this Tank misses and red shirts this year, what happens next year in 2014 if he has just a so so "rookie" year? What i'm saying is I think the 49ers shoulda waited til round 3 for this guy and if he was gone by then then so be it. This guy wont see the field this season. Another draft pick since 12' that wont contribute as a Rookie. Coulda had DE Margus Hunt who is bing called a "Star" so far in Camp.

Not even week one and you're calling him a bust.

Calm your boner for Hunt.


I'm not calling Tank a bust. Don't twist my words. In my mock drafts I had us taking Hunt with our #61 2nd rounder. I like Hunt, I personally feel is is and will be the better player but my opinion don't count. Tank may very well be a force but as far as the 1st 2 years of their careers I'd almost bet that Hunt will outshine an injured DE drafted 40th overall? I didn't like the move then and I really don't like the move now? What happens if cowboy or Aldon go down now? We'll be back in the same boat as last December because we have to wait for a Red Shirt hurt DE who may or maynot pan out in year 2 or 3 of his 4 year deal.

I agree. He may turn out great, but he may not. And he may tear that ACL again. The point is why take a player so high who won't even contribute to this super bowl caliber team? Of course we have to build for the future, but not at the expense of today.
Originally posted by Disp:
Except this is the opposite of reality. Teams in rebuilding mode are flipping players and pushing rookies into starting roles significantly more than more established teams like the 49ers. They can't afford for their rookies to not have an impact because they need immediate results. Our team is being built for long term, sustained success, and mortgaging a lot of picks on a single player who may not pan out isn't a very sound strategy. Bad teams don't have the luxury of planning for the long term. They need improvement immediately or they'll be replaced in 2 seasons.

Look at our coaching history over the past decade:
Erickson: 2 seasons, no results, fired
Nolan: 3 seasons, no results, fired
Singletary: 2 seasons, no results, fired

Coaches of rebuilding teams don't have the luxury of drafting project players. The current 49ers do.

Thanks for the reply Disp. I may be talking more about what should happen while you and Kolohe are talking about what does happen. I think GMs of rebuilding teams should stay with a 2-3 year plan to rebuild and that these are the teams that can be more patient with the rookies. Bring them along at their individual pace that is comfortable for that individual. SB contenders are more aided by immediate help from the rookies. There's a window to win and it may close. But hey, it's a bottom line kind of business so rebuilding teams aren't allowed the time they need until the fanbase wants heads to roll. In the case of the three coaching tenures you listed, there just wasn't that upward trend in team development that a rebuilding team should see. I can understand why those coaches were let go.

I think I get your's and Kolohe's point. That that's just not the way it works in the NFL. To that point, I agree that the 49ers could afford to sit rookies. They will still be a winning team regardless of whether Tank, Dial, Lattimore play a productive down or not this season. But had the 49ers drafted rookies that can help now, it no doubt aids in their quest for a SB win - this season.

Case in point is Vance. He will help the team this year. Imagine if the 49ers had drafted another impact rookie that can help this season instead of Tank. It would no doubt give them another DE/WR/CB to use this season. Instead, Tank will need to wait till 13-14 to help. Nothing wrong with that, just won't help this season. Now imagine if they selected another Tank-like player (injured 1st round talent) with the Vance pick. Great value, sure, but doesn't help this season and they'd still be looking for a TE #2.

Kolohe - You mentioned that the Raiders would never draft 4 Lattimore-like players because they know they will suck anyways. I'd like to flip the question back to you and ask what if the 49ers had drafted 4 injured rookies with a window to win being open? Would you have been happy with the good value of the picks even though they won't help in 13-14 when the 49ers have a legitimate shot at the SB and could use some help?
Has anyone heard the earliest he might be ready to go?
The 49ers DL scheme is complex enough that Carradine and Dial would be unlikely to contribute much this year regardless, not with them on the NFI the team gets to develop talent AND keep players who they trust who would otherwise be lost.

Carradine, Dial, Lattimore, and Marquardt are all probably going to stay on the injured list all year, and they probably know it.

Kevin f*gan was injured when Walsh drafted him. It's hardly new to draft injured players and stash them for a year.
Originally posted by thl408:
Case in point is Vance. He will help the team this year. Imagine if the 49ers had drafted another impact rookie that can help this season instead of Tank. It would no doubt give them another DE/WR/CB to use this season. Instead, Tank will need to wait till 13-14 to help. Nothing wrong with that, just won't help this season. Now imagine if they selected another Tank-like player (injured 1st round talent) with the Vance pick. Great value, sure, but doesn't help this season and they'd still be looking for a TE #2.

The difference is we had an immediate need for the two positions drafted in the first 2 rounds; FS and #2 TE. There was no immediate need anywhere else on our roster, which gave the team the flexibility to draft for the future and depth. If Justin Smith and McDonald stay healthy then no other DE will see more than 5-10% of the snaps this season regardless. I think it was Baalke who said the ultimate strategy isn't to draft for players to fill in right now, but to anticipate 1-2 years down the road. This year's draft seems like the perfect combination of both. There aree players who will make an immediate impact this season in Reid, McDonald, and Lemonier. Then there are a few players who are very promising for the future in Carradine, Lattimore and Moody.
Originally posted by Disp:
The difference is we had an immediate need for the two positions drafted in the first 2 rounds; FS and #2 TE. There was no immediate need anywhere else on our roster, which gave the team the flexibility to draft for the future and depth. If Justin Smith and McDonald stay healthy then no other DE will see more than 5-10% of the snaps this season regardless. I think it was Baalke who said the ultimate strategy isn't to draft for players to fill in right now, but to anticipate 1-2 years down the road. This year's draft seems like the perfect combination of both. There aree players who will make an immediate impact this season in Reid, McDonald, and Lemonier. Then there are a few players who are very promising for the future in Carradine, Lattimore and Moody.
And Quinton Patton
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by Disp:
The difference is we had an immediate need for the two positions drafted in the first 2 rounds; FS and #2 TE. There was no immediate need anywhere else on our roster, which gave the team the flexibility to draft for the future and depth. If Justin Smith and McDonald stay healthy then no other DE will see more than 5-10% of the snaps this season regardless. I think it was Baalke who said the ultimate strategy isn't to draft for players to fill in right now, but to anticipate 1-2 years down the road. This year's draft seems like the perfect combination of both. There aree players who will make an immediate impact this season in Reid, McDonald, and Lemonier. Then there are a few players who are very promising for the future in Carradine, Lattimore and Moody.
And Quinton Patton

Originally posted by ChipDouglas510:
Originally posted by Pillbusta:
Originally posted by Disp:
The difference is we had an immediate need for the two positions drafted in the first 2 rounds; FS and #2 TE. There was no immediate need anywhere else on our roster, which gave the team the flexibility to draft for the future and depth. If Justin Smith and McDonald stay healthy then no other DE will see more than 5-10% of the snaps this season regardless. I think it was Baalke who said the ultimate strategy isn't to draft for players to fill in right now, but to anticipate 1-2 years down the road. This year's draft seems like the perfect combination of both. There aree players who will make an immediate impact this season in Reid, McDonald, and Lemonier. Then there are a few players who are very promising for the future in Carradine, Lattimore and Moody.
And Quinton Patton


And hopefully Dial, Cooper and Morris! Maybe even Gray/Daniels and FA's such as Lockette...
[ Edited by NCommand on Aug 16, 2013 at 3:41 PM ]
Dorsey was a key signing to help make the DL depth a non-emergency.
In my thinking, I think Tank and Dial are close to being healthy, but as it is, we are already going to have to cut some really good players. Why activate them if they are only going to get a week or so to get their feet wet? We'd have to cut 2 more good players.

Stash them on PUP, then activate them when/if someone goes down with an injury ( wk 6-9 ). They're just making sure we have reinforcements if needed down the stretch.

It is a luxury most teams dont have. They'd be signing scrubs off the street when they have players go down.

Gameday!!! Niners!!!
Tank for Carradine!!! oh...wait...
  • Kolohe
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Originally posted by thl408:
Trust me, I am a 49er fan and I do know the team. Nice try questioning my fanhood as a way to boost your argument, though. My original point is that I think teams that are planning for long term goals (rebuilding teams) are the ones that can afford to sit rookies more so than teams that have a present window for winning it all. I don't want to keep repeating the same thing. I am sure you know my view.

And I don't wanna keep repeating my point of view which you are incapable of agreeing with. But as a 49er fan and if you've been following closely, you would know the 9ers are not a win-now team. This team is being built for the present and future, Baalke doesn't work the draft the way he does to win just for the upcoming year, this is not a boom or bust team. Baalke and co. completely work the draft to acquire value for the present then set it up where they are in better shape then most teams in the following draft. Rookies don't need to start right away because of all the depth they have at each position.

I agree with your point that head coach's jobs are on the line, but a realistic GM, of a rebuilding team, has to look at the makeup of the roster and grade a coach's job on the trend of the team's play, not the overall results (wins/losses). A logical fan of a rebuilding team and a logical GM of a rebuilding team has to understand this. Can the GM of the Raiders expect to contend for a playoff spot? Only if he's on drugs. More important than wins and losses is the way the team responds to the coach, effort level, and an upward trend in performance as the season progresses. The casual fan will not understand this and will just look at wins and losses. I get that.

Well I don't know if your an NFL GM, but if your the casual fan, don't see how you would know what an NFL GM has planned or how they are assessing a team. But as far as I've seen, teams that don't win in 1-2 years are out, regardless of response...see Mike Mularkey and Hue Jackson. Both went out and addressed a major need to their team in fixing the most important position the QB, Gabbert #1 overall and Carson Palmer. Sure they didn't workout the way they thought it would, but they thought it would put them in the best position to win now. Did you think they were thinking they had cushion to not compete, trust the team responded well to Hue Jackson and his love for the Raiders.

The 49ers are in a position to mortgage some of their future for immediate help. Baalke did the opposite in drafting for the future rather than the present with the Tank pick. It doesn't help the team in 2013. I don't think that is debatable (assuming Tank doesn't suit up at all this season).

Again, the team can afford to make picks like this, there is just so much talent on the defense to have this luxury. And like I said, even if he was healthy, how much snaps do you think he'd get to even make an impact on this team knowing they do have Ray Mac, Glenn Dorsey, Justin Smith, Ian Williams, Tukuafu and Dobbs-who has been a beast in both Preseasons hes played in. Even if he doesn't help the team this year, still doesn't hurt the team now.

And to answer your question about why it isn't a problem that Lattimore sits, the 49ers are stacked at tailback. They are not at DE. Do they have adequate DE depth? I can go with 'adequate', but it is not stacked. The true DEs are RayMac, Cowboy, Dorsey.

See...reply above, but I think your over-looking a lot of players like Tukuafu, Dobbs, Divens and Dorsey who all know the defense, no reason to rush Carradine.

Also, about the 'draft 4 Lattimores' thought. A GM with proper long term vision for a rebuilding team should draft 4 Lattimores (injured player with 1st round pedigree) if the value presented itself. Imagine getting four 1st round talents (in the 4th round) the year after to significantly boost the rebuild process. Unless you stumble upon a franchise QB with the #1 overall pick (Luck), it's going to take a couple years to rebuild a team from crap to something relevant. I understand it's not a popular thing to do for the rabid fanbase, but if you have a 2-3 year plan to rebuild, you stay the course. We've never seen a team draft like this because it wasn't until recently that catastrophic injuries could realistically be rehabilitated to full health.

Proper long term vision, are you kidding me, I haven't heard about any team not wanting to compete every year and are just thinking...well we are just building for the long term.
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
Originally posted by redrathman:
Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
I don't get it. Now a days rokkie contracts are 4 years, lets say this Tank misses and red shirts this year, what happens next year in 2014 if he has just a so so "rookie" year? What i'm saying is I think the 49ers shoulda waited til round 3 for this guy and if he was gone by then then so be it. This guy wont see the field this season. Another draft pick since 12' that wont contribute as a Rookie. Coulda had DE Margus Hunt who is bing called a "Star" so far in Camp.

Not even week one and you're calling him a bust.

Calm your boner for Hunt.


I'm not calling Tank a bust. Don't twist my words. In my mock drafts I had us taking Hunt with our #61 2nd rounder. I like Hunt, I personally feel is is and will be the better player but my opinion don't count. Tank may very well be a force but as far as the 1st 2 years of their careers I'd almost bet that Hunt will outshine an injured DE drafted 40th overall? I didn't like the move then and I really don't like the move now? What happens if cowboy or Aldon go down now? We'll be back in the same boat as last December because we have to wait for a Red Shirt hurt DE who may or maynot pan out in year 2 or 3 of his 4 year deal.

The problem is your initial judgement based off two months of practice. You're balls deep into Hunt and nothing I say will change your mind.
Balls deep for Hunt? Why not? He's a huge upside help right now prospect at age 27. Coulda used him in the next 3 to 4 years and watch Carradine get healthy? You spend a #40 overall on a guy who will not play his rookie year and they knew that before hand? That's pretty silly on their part wouldn't you say?
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