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The Demise of our Pass Defense in the Play-Offs

i don't know Buck, it would be incredible if we draft both jesse and sly williams, thus fixing our DL for the next 6-8 yrs. On the other hand, i didn't even think about drafting aldon, nor kap, so i, in particular, don't have any idea of what baalke will do. I put together in another thread 3 starters , #20, #25 and #61, bundling all the other picks into those three. Actually I could have done better with #61 being #45. Thing is, altho I feel certain baalke moves up some, (excluding 3 comp picks), i just don't see him going for just 3 starter picks. If he did it would be DL, DL, CB/S, tho with #20 pick, I would bet on CB/S as first pick. Somehow, a compromise, like moving up to make all non comp picks 2nd rounders, plus he moves up in first. Really good quality for DL, CB/S and depth too. I think in the end, trent goes for just 5 guys, and bundles all others. Of those 5, i expect 4 to be in 2nd rd with 31st pick moving up 4-6 slots. Add in 3 comp picks and we get a total of only 8 guys. With now 13 picks
(Cleveland got +1 in McCoy trade), i can see trent picking just 5 guys aside from the comps. I know it has to change, but right now we got $1.7 to sign all our draft picks. Tight Hinie.
the demise of our pass defense was due to Cowboy and aldons injuries, i dont see any other reason. its not like we havent faced big receivers all year, only difference was cowboy and aldon were hurt and we had no push up front.
  • buck
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Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
the demise of our pass defense was due to Cowboy and aldons injuries, i dont see any other reason. its not like we havent faced big receivers all year, only difference was cowboy and aldon were hurt and we had no push up front.

OK, but how to you explain the improvement of our pass defense in the 2nd half of the Atlanta game and the second half of the Baltimore game.

In the first half of each of those games, our pass defense was horrid; in the second half decent, maybe good.

The injuries to Justin and Aldon did not heal in second half of the Atlanta game, reappear in the first half of the Baltimore game, and then heal again in the 2nd half of the Baltimore game.

The pass defense in those two games was bi-polar. Surely, the injuries did not induce schizophrenia.
Originally posted by buck:
OK, but how to you explain the improvement of our pass defense in the 2nd half of the Atlanta game and the second half of the Baltimore game.

In the first half of each of those games, our pass defense was horrid; in the second half decent, maybe good.

The injuries to Justin and Aldon did not heal in second half of the Atlanta game, reappear in the first half of the Baltimore game, and then heal again in the 2nd half of the Baltimore game.

The pass defense in those two games was bi-polar. Surely, the injuries did not induce schizophrenia.

There's already been plenty of theories here. In ATL, we started sending Brooks and it worked + our offense got it together. In BAL, our offense dominated in2H and not sure about D changes.

The general trens was that we danced with the one that brung us for too long before changing things up for the last 25% of the season. I think that's on coaching staff. Injuries happen. Adjustments are mandatory part of the job description. We could have been more nimble there. I am not just pointing the finger at Fangio. The brain trust all needs to take ownership of that.

You don't seem to want to accept theories like that. What do you think? Where are you going by keep asking the question? What do you think?
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
the demise of our pass defense was due to Cowboy and aldons injuries, i dont see any other reason. its not like we havent faced big receivers all year, only difference was cowboy and aldon were hurt and we had no push up front.

This. They couldn't rush like they were able to when healthy, and you can't expect the receivers to be covered for more than 3 or 4 seconds without something opening up.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by JimA49ers:
Originally posted by hondakillerzx:
the demise of our pass defense was due to Cowboy and aldons injuries, i dont see any other reason. its not like we havent faced big receivers all year, only difference was cowboy and aldon were hurt and we had no push up front.

This. They couldn't rush like they were able to when healthy, and you can't expect the receivers to be covered for more than 3 or 4 seconds without something opening up.
i am sure this is true but you guy know we just have to get more depth on the line to keep these guys, esp the aging justin, fresh plus to build for the future. we just can not have these guys play the same amount of snaps this coming year as they did last year. And as we saw with injuries our depth was razor thin and cost us... i could go back to my moaning about not using our two all pro linebackers in pass rush more than we did but it would not be valuable
  • buck
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Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
There's already been plenty of theories here. In ATL, we started sending Brooks and it worked + our offense got it together. In BAL, our offense dominated in2H and not sure about D changes.

The general trens was that we danced with the one that brung us for too long before changing things up for the last 25% of the season. I think that's on coaching staff. Injuries happen. Adjustments are mandatory part of the job description. We could have been more nimble there. I am not just pointing the finger at Fangio. The brain trust all needs to take ownership of that.

You don't seem to want to accept theories like that. What do you think? Where are you going by keep asking the question? What do you think?

Theories are interesting. I am not going anywhere.

In my estimation, there were various factors that converged to produce the the demise.
those factors are:

1. Major injuries to Aldon and Justin Smith

2. not making adjustments in a timely manner--responsibility for this falls on defensive coordinator.

3. players not being ready to play at the beginning of the game--being lethargic. I think this falls on coaching staff, but especially Harbaugh.
This affected both our pass defense and our offense. The offense's improvement in second half, reduced the time the opponents offense had to attack our pass defense.

4. Drop off in the play of Culliver--in part caused by the turmoil created by his inability to say, Next question please. In part, this falls on him and in part on the coaching staff.

5. Opposing coaching staffs were able to pinpoint our weaknesses in the defending the pass.

6. Inconsistent play on the part of Goldson, and Whitner.

8.. lack of adequate depth

I also think you sound miffed.

My guess is you still think Aldon Smith is not a real 3-4 outside linebacker.
[ Edited by buck on Apr 9, 2013 at 9:07 AM ]
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by buck:
Theories are interesting. I am not going anywhere.

In my estimation, there were various factors that converged to produce the the demise.
those factors are:

1. Major injuries to Aldon and Justin Smith

2. not making adjustments in a timely manner--responsibility for this falls on defensive coordinator.

3. players not being ready to play at the beginning of the game--being lethargic. I think this falls on coaching staff, but especially Harbaugh.
This affected both our pass defense and our offense. The offense's improvement in second half, reduced the time the opponents offense had to attack our pass defense.

4. Drop off in the play of Culliver--in part caused by the turmoil created by his ability to say, Next question please. In part, this falls on him and in part on the coaching staff.

5. Opposing coaching staffs were able to pinpoint our weaknesses in the defending the pass.

6. Inconsistent play on the part of Goldson, and Whitner.

8.. lack of adequate depth

I also think you sound miffed.

My guess is you still think Aldon Smith is not a real 3-4 outside linebacker.
bullet point number three is a very under rated but very understandable concern this past year. I sort of gave them a pass in the vikings game due to the mid west time change but there were other games where they were just not ready to play. Now i know people have a off game but not being ready to play the game just made me flashback to all those games, usually on the road, with other coaches we have had where we were not ready and got blown. I would like to think that this area as well as the playclock issues that gave me a heart attack will be addressed this coming year. i could go on in regards to bullet point number six about goldson and his dumb ass drive extending penalites but he is not here so that would not valuable bullet point number 8 is spot on.. good points buck, you are a good poster and good citizen
Originally posted by buck:
Theories are interesting. I am not going anywhere.

In my estimation, there were various factors that converged to produce the the demise.
those factors are:

1. Major injuries to Aldon and Justin Smith

2. not making adjustments in a timely manner--responsibility for this falls on defensive coordinator.

3. players not being ready to play at the beginning of the game--being lethargic. I think this falls on coaching staff, but especially Harbaugh.
This affected both our pass defense and our offense. The offense's improvement in second half, reduced the time the opponents offense had to attack our pass defense.

4. Drop off in the play of Culliver--in part caused by the turmoil created by his inability to say, Next question please. In part, this falls on him and in part on the coaching staff.

5. Opposing coaching staffs were able to pinpoint our weaknesses in the defending the pass.

6. Inconsistent play on the part of Goldson, and Whitner.

8.. lack of adequate depth

I also think you sound miffed.

My guess is you still think Aldon Smith is not a real 3-4 outside linebacker.

Aldon is a hybrid athlete lining up in a position that could be described as OLB or two point down lineman. Whatever fangio was doing, Aldon was spectacularly successful getting to the passer. I am less certain about his effectiveness in run D, coverage, his range and motivation getting in on plays away from his zone of responsibility.

Smith's numbers were off the charts by the way. 19.5 sacks in 12 games, if you discount the injury games. Even if you throw out the freaky 5.5 sack game against the cards -- say it was due to some collapse in Card OL scheme or hurt personnel, something quirky -- and sub in instead say a reasonable 1.5 sack effort --- that is still a gargantuan 15.5 sacks in 12 games.

Not criticising, just saying I don't know about non-sack items. I will point out that if Aldon was as productive against the run as he was getting to the passer, he would have finished the season with, like, about 80 tackles and 45 assists, not counting sacks.

He was that successful against the pass.

However his non sack numbers went the other way. And I don't want to get into all this again. I think everyones already got the stats and can estimate for themselves.
Simple answer. The demise of the defense happened in the second half of the season about the time of the quarterback switch. Alex Smith game manager - out.
Colin Kaep dynamic quick player in....Time of possession dropped significantly without Alex..This translates to "worn-out" defense and more injuries. 49ers needed to control the ball, which was difficult to do with a new QB like Colin. This is why we won so much Joe Montana and Bill Walsh..long effective drives and fresh defenses.
  • buck
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Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

He's not a real OLB. Smith isn't given a lot of responsibilities that you give traditional Steeler-style OLB's.

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:

Aldon is a hybrid athlete lining up in a position that could be described as OLB or two point down lineman.

My disagreement with you is simple, and it is not about stats.

You insist that Aldon Smith is not a real 3-4 outside linebacker.

Even in your latest post you are not willing to acknowledge that Aldon Smith is a real 3-4 outside linebacker.

He was named All Pro as an outside linebacker. He is listed on the team roster as an outside linebacker.

In fact not only is Aldon Smith is a real outside linebacker, he is an All Pro outside linebacker.

But, hey, if you want to continue your denial, more power to you.
[ Edited by buck on Apr 9, 2013 at 10:21 AM ]
Originally posted by jimmythegreekjr:
Simple answer. The demise of the defense happened in the second half of the season about the time of the quarterback switch. Alex Smith game manager - out.
Colin Kaep dynamic quick player in....Time of possession dropped significantly without Alex..This translates to "worn-out" defense and more injuries. 49ers needed to control the ball, which was difficult to do with a new QB like Colin. This is why we won so much Joe Montana and Bill Walsh..long effective drives and fresh defenses.

Yes. Good observations. That was a standard Bill Walsh tactic. Use the WCO to go up 17-3 with 5 minutes left in the half, then start burning the clock with run game, etc. It worked out.
Originally posted by buck:
My disagreement with you is simple, and it is not about stats.

You insist that Aldon Smith is not a real 3-4 outside linebacker.

Even in your latest post you are not willing to acknowledge that Aldon Smith is a real 3-4 outside linebacker.

He was named All Pro as an outside linebacker. He is listed on the team roster as an outside linebacker.

In fact not only is Aldon Smith is a real outside linebacker, he is an All Pro outside linebacker.

But, hey, if you want to continue your denial, more power to you.

You are being really weird on this. His athletic capability and game knowledge define the responsibilities the DC asks of him play to play. Not his "position."

Is the person receiving the snap in a wildcat formation a quarterback or a running back? Well it says QB on the roster, even though they run all the time.

Same point here. I don't think Fangio runs him the way Brooks is run in his schemes. Or other OLBs are run throughout the league. This impacts things at the higher level, when we talk about the 49ers giving the "same looks" all the time. Or Aldon getting "worn down" (because he may not have much to do besides pound on 300 lbs guys rushing the passer) -- and so on.

So you take the good with the bad. You have an enormously successful QB rusher, who is very young, and looking to grow into a position that he doesn't have a lot of experience with in either Pro or College level. So, that figures into what went on in 2012. That's all I'm saying.
C'mon, brodie, concede the point. Buck is correct, Aldon is an OLB. Sure he moves around, but still is an OLB...an ALL PRO OLB.

Buck, your bullet points #3...no question we all wondered WTF in any number of games when our guys came out in first half and looked like they were sleepwalking. Drove me nuts. SB was same way. That is coaching, coaching and coaching...bad coaching.
Bullet #6, "inconsistent play of whitner, goldson" was an understatement.

Bullet #8, however, lack of adequate depth, is something HC and DC had to have been aware of and then, later in season, guys are tired, injuries occur...justin, aldon, brooks, et al. Actually of all the points, this is one that was the most egregious, because it showed how Coach H just turned a blind eye to his 3 DLs... justin gets doubled, tripled sometimes. Sure it wears a guy out. But unfortunately, when really tired , that is when injuries occur. And i don't think JH took that into account. If Justin had fewer guys on him, he probably would have been as good as he is now for another 2-3 yrs. The work that guy did this past yr, probably took a yr or two off his playing career. We worry about too many carries for Frank and extending his career, but nobody has ever given a thot to justin, working twice as hard, maybe 3X as hard as anyone else on the field all game long. Either spell justin(which they now realized was needed last yr), Change D to a 4-3 and get more guys involved with the workload( i am not advocating that, just a comment), or do the one thing baalke really couldn't do before this yr and that is grab two starting DLs out of a really deep draft. Yeah, we gotta have a S/CB(let them figure that out), but key to this draft is two starting DLs, which extends justin's career another yr, and fixes our DL for next 6-8 yrs. Drafting a project DL isn't going to help us. We need two starters....and the Williamses, sly and jesse, wouldn't be a bad get. There are others, too, but these two guys would be terrific. For FS/CB i think we will have to move up a bit, but that shouldn't be that huge a problem.

Vince Lombardi said "Build your lines first", (as well as others). We basically have the OL extended thru the next 5-6 yrs, but the DL needs the same type of attention. If we fix the DL with 2 starter picks, we will be set, better than any other team in the league, Lines-wise. And everything else is cascades down based upon getting your lines set first. I don't remember a draft so loaded with DL starters in yrs. We need to take advantage of that, no matter how many fans want Tavon austin or Effert.

I guess, having said that, we probably will go out and get tavon and effert...but point is we shouldn't.
  • cciowa
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Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
C'mon, brodie, concede the point. Buck is correct, Aldon is an OLB. Sure he moves around, but still is an OLB...an ALL PRO OLB.

Buck, your bullet points #3...no question we all wondered WTF in any number of games when our guys came out in first half and looked like they were sleepwalking. Drove me nuts. SB was same way. That is coaching, coaching and coaching...bad coaching.
Bullet #6, "inconsistent play of whitner, goldson" was an understatement.

Bullet #8, however, lack of adequate depth, is something HC and DC had to have been aware of and then, later in season, guys are tired, injuries occur...justin, aldon, brooks, et al. Actually of all the points, this is one that was the most egregious, because it showed how Coach H just turned a blind eye to his 3 DLs... justin gets doubled, tripled sometimes. Sure it wears a guy out. But unfortunately, when really tired , that is when injuries occur. And i don't think JH took that into account. If Justin had fewer guys on him, he probably would have been as good as he is now for another 2-3 yrs. The work that guy did this past yr, probably took a yr or two off his playing career. We worry about too many carries for Frank and extending his career, but nobody has ever given a thot to justin, working twice as hard, maybe 3X as hard as anyone else on the field all game long. Either spell justin(which they now realized was needed last yr), Change D to a 4-3 and get more guys involved with the workload( i am not advocating that, just a comment), or do the one thing baalke really couldn't do before this yr and that is grab two starting DLs out of a really deep draft. Yeah, we gotta have a S/CB(let them figure that out), but key to this draft is two starting DLs, which extends justin's career another yr, and fixes our DL for next 6-8 yrs. Drafting a project DL isn't going to help us. We need two starters....and the Williamses, sly and jesse, wouldn't be a bad get. There are others, too, but these two guys would be terrific. For FS/CB i think we will have to move up a bit, but that shouldn't be that huge a problem.

Vince Lombardi said "Build your lines first", (as well as others). We basically have the OL extended thru the next 5-6 yrs, but the DL needs the same type of attention. If we fix the DL with 2 starter picks, we will be set, better than any other team in the league, Lines-wise. And everything else is cascades down based upon getting your lines set first. I don't remember a draft so loaded with DL starters in yrs. We need to take advantage of that, no matter how many fans want Tavon austin or Effert.

I guess, having said that, we probably will go out and get tavon and effert...but point is we shouldn't.
doc and buck are at the top of their game today not ready to play is all on the coaches and no that does not mean we want nolan and singleberry back