Boldin versus Harvin

Originally posted by RolandDeschain:
One of the pitfalls of drafting supremely well for years on end. Every NFL team wants this problem. Also, between some of your key players getting older and some of the young guys starting, I don't think you're as well stocked & locked for a few years as you imply, IMO. Harvin's the first expensive, flashy FA signing Carroll & Schneider have done since they came here nearly 4 years ago, unless you count Zach Miller; which I don't, his price and skill set seems moderate, or upper-moderate, to me.

I understand you and Lisa's optimism, however please point out where we are not as stocked and locked for the future as we think. We have $30 million to spend next year on our core guys, we have 5 of the 1st 100 picks this year(we will trade some for picks next year, hopefully Clowney, yes I am a dreamer). Goldson should get us an extra 3rd round pick next year, plus teams overspent on Walker and RJF. We already have and extra 2nd or 3rd next year. How can you not love our position right now. Our flashy FA is Dorsey, who it extremely cheap.

The Seahawks on the other hand, while they have an extremely good roster this year, are already 4 million over the cap next(I am using $124 million as the number next year). I understand that some contracts will change before then, but here is the main reason why I am very happy with our situation: We have stayed below the cap to build our team from the inside and that will allow us to stay near the top for a long time. I know it is a year away, but next year only 2 of our top 10 paid guys were acquired via FA, meanwhile the Seahawks have 7 of their top 10 paid players signed next year drafted by someone else.

Chris

Originally posted by LoneWolf:
Especially when comparing two totally different types of wide receiver.

as I have mentioned multiple times

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:

Originally posted by RolandDeschain:
One of the pitfalls of drafting supremely well for years on end. Every NFL team wants this problem. Also, between some of your key players getting older and some of the young guys starting, I don't think you're as well stocked & locked for a few years as you imply, IMO. Harvin's the first expensive, flashy FA signing Carroll & Schneider have done since they came here nearly 4 years ago, unless you count Zach Miller; which I don't, his price and skill set seems moderate, or upper-moderate, to me.

I understand you and Lisa's optimism, however please point out where we are not as stocked and locked for the future as we think. We have $30 million to spend next year on our core guys, we have 5 of the 1st 100 picks this year(we will trade some for picks next year, hopefully Clowney, yes I am a dreamer). Goldson should get us an extra 3rd round pick next year, plus teams overspend on Walker and RJF. We already have and extra 2nd or 3rd next year. How can you not love our position right now. Our flashy FA is Dorsey, who it extremely cheap.

The Seahawks on the other hand, while they have an extremely good roster this year, are already 4 million over the cap next(I am using $124 million as the number next year). I understand that some contracts will change before then, but here is the main reason why I am very happy with our situation: We have stayed below the cap to build our team from the inside and that will allow us to stay near the top for a long time. I know it is a year away, but next year only 2 of our top 10 paid guys are FA, meanwhile the Seahawks have 7 of their top 10 paid players signed next year drafted by someone else.

Chris

He is basically saying you guys are paying free agents and making trades for players while you should be extending better players who are making peanuts right now on your roster.

If they hit the market, they are going to want a big fat contract. All of them. At once.

Good luck.

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
He is basically saying you guys are paying free agents and making trades for players while you should be extending better players who are making peanuts right now on your roster.

If they hit the market, they are going to want a big fat contract. All of them. At once.

Good luck.

Thanks.
I think the intent (as the link I posted on the previous page explains) is to do all of the above, to the extent possible.

In Schneider we trust

Originally posted by LisaTwelve:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:

Originally posted by truekingcarlos:
There's no "vs" there. Boldin's a has been, Harvin's a playmaker just priming.

Yet the numbers dont agree with you.

Yes Harvin is hitting his prime, and Boldin is getting up there in age, but i dont see why people claim Harvin is such a dynamic WR. He is versitile, but strictly speaking as a WR he is not that dynamic.

His career average is only 11.8. Crabtree has had a higher average his entire career, and alot of us were saying he wasnt living up to his draft status just a season ago.

Boldins career average is 13.2, and the last two seasons he had a 15.6 and 14.2 average, to harvins 11.1 and 10.9.

Your right about one thing, when it comes to WR's there is no competition, Boldin is and has always been the better WR. He will be the better WR again this season as well.

As I eluded to previously in this thread, I'm not sure how fair it is to compare the careers of a 4-year player and a 10-year player, especially without considering the actual roles they played on their respective teams (their teams' style of play and the others players they had around them).

What is likely more germane here is not who is the better receiver (number-by-number, play-by-play) but, who, by his presence and play, makes his entire team better. Whether it be by contributing directly to dynamic plays on O or ST or just opening up options and providing solid play via his versatility (or both!).

Unfortunately, we have many months to wait in order to make that assessment and those comparisons.

Umm no. If we are to make a comparisson, it has to be as WR's. Like i have said many times, Harvin is more versitile, adding to ST etc. But all we can compare is the WR #'s because thats all boldin is, is a damn good WR.

And i did not compare the careers. I compared the last two years. People have been claiming Harvin is more dynamic, and Boldin is old. Well the last few seasons would tell a differant story.

As a WR Boldin has been more explosive, and more dynamic than Harvin, even the last two seasons. Boldin who is supposedly slow and old, has nearly a 4 yard average differance to Harvin the last two seasons, when Harvin is supposedly the more dynamic and explosive WR. An 11.8 career average as a WR is not that impressive to me, especially when people attempt to Hype Harvins big play and dynamic ability as a WR.

Again, i am not compareing anything besides the two as WR's. Harvin is nowhere near Boldins level, and unless he improves dramaticly, likely never will be.

Fact is your guys gave up an extreme amount for an average WR. Sure he offers more than just being a WR wit his ST value, but is it worth it? The answer is no. If he was an amazing WR and offered all the other things he offers, than maybe you could have an arguement, but you simply do not give up that much for an amazing ST player who offers average WR skills. You just dont.

Like i said, its not a Fair comparrison, or even a comparisson at all when it comes to WR. Boldin puts Harvin to shame.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:

Originally posted by redrathman:
This thread should really be named Boldin vs. Browner or Harvin vs. Rogers, because comparing the two wide receivers is a complete waste of time.

Especially when comparing two totally different types of wide receiver.

No its a fair comparisson. Especially when the Older over the hill vet still has a higher average, than the younger, supposedly more dynamic, WR.

It leads to the conclusion that Harvin, isaint as dynamic as he is made out to be as a WR, and Boldin isaint as over the hill as he is made out to be.

Boldin had nearly 4 more yards per catch the last two seasons than Harvin did. But Boldin is apparently over the hill, and Harvin is Dynamic.

Harvin is a damn good player. Both guys are tough for WRs. Harvin just has the migraine issues and other injuries that keep him off the field. When healthy though, Harvin is one of the more productive players in the league. He'll be a huge boost to Seattle's offense, IF he can stay on the field.

Boldin's toughness though, is on a whole different level. When he received that severe hit that KO'd him and required staples, he came back in a matter of weeks. He was initially thought to be out for the year. The truly remarkable part is that he refused to take any pain killers. He thought it would slow the healing process and weaken his pain tolerance, possibly making him dependant on meds. If that was any person on this board, we would've been out of it for months, with all the meds we could get away with. He was in the gym with staples in his head and playing as soon as he could get a doctor to clear him.

Every since Boldin's big hit, he's been one of favorite players to root for. Regardless of what team he's on, he's the type of player you want to succeed. I'm just happy he's a 49ers. He's a monster, even if he doesn't dominate on a weekly basis anymore.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
No its a fair comparisson. Especially when the Older over the hill vet still has a higher average, than the younger, supposedly more dynamic, WR.

It leads to the conclusion that Harvin, isaint as dynamic as he is made out to be as a WR, and Boldin isaint as over the hill as he is made out to be.

Boldin had nearly 4 more yards per catch the last two seasons than Harvin did. But Boldin is apparently over the hill, and Harvin is Dynamic.

It still isnt even worth the time to compare the two, because what way are your comparing them, by position or as a player in full?

IdahoNiner ~ we'll just have to agree to disagree...

As others have mentioned, they are different types of WR's that were used differently based on their respective teams' system/style.
But, it will be fun to follow, once the season starts, to see how each player is able to contribute to their new team.

Originally posted by LoneWolf:

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
No its a fair comparisson. Especially when the Older over the hill vet still has a higher average, than the younger, supposedly more dynamic, WR.

It leads to the conclusion that Harvin, isaint as dynamic as he is made out to be as a WR, and Boldin isaint as over the hill as he is made out to be.

Boldin had nearly 4 more yards per catch the last two seasons than Harvin did. But Boldin is apparently over the hill, and Harvin is Dynamic.

It still isnt even worth the time to compare the two, because what way are your comparing them, by position or as a player in full?

Of course by position. Is a Dynamic ST player, who offers average WR skills worth three pics and all that Money? The answer is no when you can fill those needs with two seperate players, one that offers a WR skill set, and one that offers a ST skillset, for much cheaper, and without giving up three draft pics.

The only Skill sets we can compare is as a WR, Since Boldin is not a ST player.

When we compare the two as WR's it shows Harvin is not as dynamic of a playmaker at WR as es made out to be, and Boldin isaint as over the hill as hes made out to be. Thats hat the comparison leaves us with.

Strictly speaking, you spend that much on a single player, he better be a player that puts you over the top. Harvin is not that player. Seattle may hope he is, but he wont live up to the hype.

Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Of course by position. Is a Dynamic ST player, who offers average WR skills worth three pics and all that Money? The answer is no when you can fill those needs with two seperate players, one that offers a WR skill set, and one that offers a ST skillset, for much cheaper, and without giving up three draft pics.

The only Skill sets we can compare is as a WR, Since Boldin is not a ST player.

When we compare the two as WR's it shows Harvin is not as dynamic of a playmaker at WR as es made out to be, and Boldin isaint as over the hill as hes made out to be. Thats hat the comparison leaves us with.

Strictly speaking, you spend that much on a single player, he better be a player that puts you over the top. Harvin is not that player. Seattle may hope he is, but he wont live up to the hype.

Originally posted by LisaTwelve:
IdahoNiner ~ we'll just have to agree to disagree...

As others have mentioned, they are different types of WR's that were used differently based on their respective teams' system/style.
But, it will be fun to follow, once the season starts, to see how each player is able to contribute to their new team.

Yes, but that is my point.

If harvin was the "Type" of WR people make him out to be, shouldnt he have a better average? Better longs? shouldnt the numbers point to him being more explosive and more Dynamic?

Why does the slow, over the hill WR, have better numbers in that regard at the end of his carreer, than the younger WR hitting his prime?

My point is, Harvin is not the type of WR people make him out to be. Probably never will be.

Originally posted by LisaTwelve:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
He is basically saying you guys are paying free agents and making trades for players while you should be extending better players who are making peanuts right now on your roster.

If they hit the market, they are going to want a big fat contract. All of them. At once.

Good luck.

Thanks.
I think the intent (as the link I posted on the previous page explains) is to do all of the above, to the extent possible.

In Schneider we trust

All teams want to do take care of their own, however very few can. The Niners are 1 of those that can. Yes, we let Dashon go, but really, at that price why would we want to resign. We have taken care of a lot of our own in the last couple of years and next year we will take care of Kaep, Aldon, Mike Iupati, A.Davis and hopefully Crabtree(I actually think that Crabtree won't cost as much as most think, again I am a dreamer). We have the resources to do this. Add to that our surplus of quality draft picks,and I honestly don't see how this is going to be competitive for more that a year.

How are the Seahawks going to give Sherman an extension when they are already over the cap?

Chris

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:

Originally posted by LisaTwelve:

Originally posted by Young2Rice:
He is basically saying you guys are paying free agents and making trades for players while you should be extending better players who are making peanuts right now on your roster.

If they hit the market, they are going to want a big fat contract. All of them. At once.

Good luck.

Thanks.
I think the intent (as the link I posted on the previous page explains) is to do all of the above, to the extent possible.

In Schneider we trust

All teams want to do take care of their own, however very few can. The Niners are 1 of those that can. Yes, we let Dashon go, but really, at that price why would we want to resign. We have taken care of a lot of our own in the last couple of years and next year we will take care of Kaep, Aldon, Mike Iupati, A.Davis and hopefully Crabtree(I actually think that Crabtree won't cost as much as most think, again I am a dreamer). We have the resources to do this. Add to that our surplus of quality draft picks,and I honestly don't see how this is going to be competitive for more that a year.

How are the Seahawks going to give Sherman an extension when they are already over the cap?

Chris

Strictly speaking in terms of Goldson, The Juice wasnt worth the squeeze.

Originally posted by ManBearPig99:
All teams want to do take care of their own, however very few can. The Niners are 1 of those that can. Yes, we let Dashon go, but really, at that price why would we want to resign. We have taken care of a lot of our own in the last couple of years and next year we will take care of Kaep, Aldon, Mike Iupati, A.Davis and hopefully Crabtree(I actually think that Crabtree won't cost as much as most think, again I am a dreamer). We have the resources to do this. Add to that our surplus of quality draft picks,and I honestly don't see how this is going to be competitive for more that a year.

How are the Seahawks going to give Sherman an extension when they are already over the cap?

Chris

The off season isn't over yet
I expect more cuts, trades and or new/restructured contracts in order to make any necessary room...
John has something in mind in order to make the statement:

"There's a plan in place here, and there's several different phases to free agency, so we'll see how that goes," Schneider said. "But in the meantime, we'd really like to just kind of focus on our own guys, our younger players that we've drafted."

Not sure how many they can focus on but, I would imagine their list of 2013/14 priorities might include some mix of: Chancellor, Tate, Haushka, Browner, Robinson, Giacomini.
btw ~ I don't believe Sherm can extend until after this season