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2013 Team Needs - Updates

Yeah, like we figured Goodwin would either get cut or have to re-work his deal. I like what we are doing. Instead of cutting Manningham, Haralson, Goodwin, etc who we need let's get them to take pay cuts. We are better off restructuring than cutting. Not to mention how many guys re-worked their deals (5 or so?) to help get Bowman and others signed. Our team 1st mentality is obvious. Anyways, this gives Looney and/or Kilgore another year to work at center in pre-season and practice so hopefully whoever it is is ready to go next year. No matter who wins it next year the other will probably be backup so both could use the extra year of work/learning.
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Yeah, like we figured Goodwin would either get cut or have to re-work his deal. I like what we are doing. Instead of cutting Manningham, Haralson, Goodwin, etc who we need let's get them to take pay cuts. We are better off restructuring than cutting. Not to mention how many guys re-worked their deals (5 or so?) to help get Bowman and others signed. Our team 1st mentality is obvious. Anyways, this gives Looney and/or Kilgore another year to work at center in pre-season and practice so hopefully whoever it is is ready to go next year. No matter who wins it next year the other will probably be backup so both could use the extra year of work/learning.

Agree. Nice post!
Originally posted by tohara3:
Agree. Nice post!

Thank you. Last year I was ready for Goodwin to be gone when Kap first took over. Was a bit of overreaction by me but was frustrated how he kept putting the pistol snaps on the ground. It got better as the year went on. Honestly, I think we are better off having Goodwin one more year than going with Looney or Kilgore so it's a good move in my opinion. By that time we will be fully aware if Looney (or Kilgore) is the kind of starting center we want. Could very well go with a draft pick as well since we will be loaded early again. I think it will be Looney but the draft is an option if we aren't happy with those guys.
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Yeah, like we figured Goodwin would either get cut or have to re-work his deal. I like what we are doing. Instead of cutting Manningham, Haralson, Goodwin, etc who we need let's get them to take pay cuts. We are better off restructuring than cutting. Not to mention how many guys re-worked their deals (5 or so?) to help get Bowman and others signed. Our team 1st mentality is obvious. Anyways, this gives Looney and/or Kilgore another year to work at center in pre-season and practice so hopefully whoever it is is ready to go next year. No matter who wins it next year the other will probably be backup so both could use the extra year of work/learning.


And don't forget, just as importantly, if we don't cut them, but instead just let them walk after their contract is up and they sign with somebody, we get a comp pick.
[ Edited by BrianGO on May 24, 2013 at 6:50 PM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
And don't forget, just as importantly, if we don't cut them, but instead just let them walk after their contract is up and they sign with somebody, we get a comp pick.

Good point. Even though at this point in their careers Goodwin, Manningham, etc might only be getting small short deals it can help make us have more losses than gains which is part of the equation for comp picks. Might only be an extra 7th but it never hurts to have more draft picks. The way we have been working the draft we like to move up 2-5 or so spots to make sure we get our guys. I like it especially when we have an abundance of late round picks.
[ Edited by Gore_21 on May 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM ]
Originally posted by BrianGO:
Originally posted by Gore_21:
Yeah, like we figured Goodwin would either get cut or have to re-work his deal. I like what we are doing. Instead of cutting Manningham, Haralson, Goodwin, etc who we need let's get them to take pay cuts. We are better off restructuring than cutting. Not to mention how many guys re-worked their deals (5 or so?) to help get Bowman and others signed. Our team 1st mentality is obvious. Anyways, this gives Looney and/or Kilgore another year to work at center in pre-season and practice so hopefully whoever it is is ready to go next year. No matter who wins it next year the other will probably be backup so both could use the extra year of work/learning.


And don't forget, just as importantly, if we don't cut them, but instead just let them walk after their contract is up and they sign with somebody, we get a comp pick.

Yes Baalke is very good at that for sure.
Member Milestone: This is post number 1,400 for nw9erfan.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
As much as I respect NC's viewpoints, I have to give the nod to Chauncey in this thread...

I just think guys like QB Daniels, "TE" Gray, DL Okoye, WR Lockette, OT Netter, NT Divens, and CB Cooper have a much greater chance of landing on the practice squad than making the 53. Also, guys like QB McCoy, WR K Williams, LB Haralson, and even DL Tukuafu / Dobbs are, to put it simply, unlikely to get cut. Now, guys like C Goodwin and CB Rogers? Time will tell with those 2. I can see both of them cut unless they agree to re-work their deals.

The team needs vets in some areas. They got burned in the SB because they didn't have enough pass rushing, D-line, and ST depth and/or experience (just as I predicted in the beginning of last season). I just think NCs roster is a little on the youthful / inexperienced side.

OK, now you're just hurting my feelings. LOL. Absolutely...you know me, I rarely go "safe and predictable." A few factors lead me to this youth movement and like the draft, I tried my best to pick like Baalke would; I did fairly well with that approach so I tried to adopt it here as well:
  • Even on a stacked team, ask yourself how many players we've drafted and then let go...not many huh?
  • We've seen a purging of the previous regime over the past few years and very few hold overs.
  • This coaching staff is not afraid to start younger players if they feel they are ready and some were right away (Miller) while others were developed (Boone)
  • With a stacked team now, we may for the first time, start seeing players brought in for specific roles in specific packages (example, Morris as a slot CB but also adds to ST as a gunner)
  • We have clearly gone away from one-trick-pony type players and look for players who can fit specific roles but with a multiple skill set
  • This coaching staff loves to develop players now to be ready instantly (if possible) with an obvious eye on the future (Okoye, Lattimore, Looney, etc.).
  • So while players such as QB McCoy, WR Williams, OLB Haralson and DL Tukuafu/Dobbs are all safe and known products, at what point do the youngsters immediate talent, multi-faceted skill sets and long-term growth/development/potential overtake the aforementioned? Perhaps, that time is now...

I do think that this is a topic worthy of more discussion. After reading your post (and re-reading mine), I can better understand your thinking. I agree with the points you made that I highlighted. I agree that the Niners brass in general, want more versatility from their players (like New England does).

Where I would differ with you is this..
While I agree that the Niners might be willing to cut an experienced known quantity (a guy like Haralson for example) in favor of a player with much less experience but much higher long term upside (a guy like Lemonier for example), I don't think the Niners would cut a guy like K Williams (who likely hasn't even hit his ceiling yet and has some experience), in favor of a guy like Lockette for example, who is clearly talented but lacks experience and polish.

Also, one thing I neglected to mention in my previous post is my belief that Super Bowl winning teams are in general, not too young. The 1992 cowboys were an exception but in general, teams who win the SB have a mixture of young talent and vet leadership. The Niners of 2012 actually were pretty young for a SB team and as it turned out, their inexperience cost them in the playoffs, just like it did in the 2011 NFC title game.

I'm not going to state the Niners are going to go with vets exclusively this off-season. What I'm stating is that given the choice between a vet and a young guy now, they may be leaning more towards the vet.....if he doesn't cost too much of course.
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by nw9erfan:
As much as I respect NC's viewpoints, I have to give the nod to Chauncey in this thread...

I just think guys like QB Daniels, "TE" Gray, DL Okoye, WR Lockette, OT Netter, NT Divens, and CB Cooper have a much greater chance of landing on the practice squad than making the 53. Also, guys like QB McCoy, WR K Williams, LB Haralson, and even DL Tukuafu / Dobbs are, to put it simply, unlikely to get cut. Now, guys like C Goodwin and CB Rogers? Time will tell with those 2. I can see both of them cut unless they agree to re-work their deals.

The team needs vets in some areas. They got burned in the SB because they didn't have enough pass rushing, D-line, and ST depth and/or experience (just as I predicted in the beginning of last season). I just think NCs roster is a little on the youthful / inexperienced side.

OK, now you're just hurting my feelings. LOL. Absolutely...you know me, I rarely go "safe and predictable." A few factors lead me to this youth movement and like the draft, I tried my best to pick like Baalke would; I did fairly well with that approach so I tried to adopt it here as well:
  • Even on a stacked team, ask yourself how many players we've drafted and then let go...not many huh?
  • We've seen a purging of the previous regime over the past few years and very few hold overs.
  • This coaching staff is not afraid to start younger players if they feel they are ready and some were right away (Miller) while others were developed (Boone)
  • With a stacked team now, we may for the first time, start seeing players brought in for specific roles in specific packages (example, Morris as a slot CB but also adds to ST as a gunner)
  • We have clearly gone away from one-trick-pony type players and look for players who can fit specific roles but with a multiple skill set
  • This coaching staff loves to develop players now to be ready instantly (if possible) with an obvious eye on the future (Okoye, Lattimore, Looney, etc.).
  • So while players such as QB McCoy, WR Williams, OLB Haralson and DL Tukuafu/Dobbs are all safe and known products, at what point do the youngsters immediate talent, multi-faceted skill sets and long-term growth/development/potential overtake the aforementioned? Perhaps, that time is now...

I do think that this is a topic worthy of more discussion. After reading your post (and re-reading mine), I can better understand your thinking. I agree with the points you made that I highlighted. I agree that the Niners brass in general, want more versatility from their players (like New England does).

Where I would differ with you is this..
While I agree that the Niners might be willing to cut an experienced known quantity (a guy like Haralson for example) in favor of a player with much less experience but much higher long term upside (a guy like Lemonier for example), I don't think the Niners would cut a guy like K Williams (who likely hasn't even hit his ceiling yet and has some experience), in favor of a guy like Lockette for example, who is clearly talented but lacks experience and polish.

Also, one thing I neglected to mention in my previous post is my belief that Super Bowl winning teams are in general, not too young. The 1992 cowboys were an exception but in general, teams who win the SB have a mixture of young talent and vet leadership. The Niners of 2012 actually were pretty young for a SB team and as it turned out, their inexperience cost them in the playoffs, just like it did in the 2011 NFC title game.

I'm not going to state the Niners are going to go with vets exclusively this off-season. What I'm stating is that given the choice between a vet and a young guy now, they may be leaning more towards the vet.....if he doesn't cost too much of course.

Thanks for your additional thoughts/points. This, by far, is going to be the toughest 53 yet for all the points you make. I already redid my 53 to ensure Kyle Williams was includes now with the PUP injury to both Crabtree and most likely Manningham. Guys such as Lockette/Jenkins will now not only vie for his spot but add value at other positions as well (same with Patton, Williams, Manningham, VD/McDonald, etc).

I'm still not sure if a guy such as Haralson makes it though...or even Goodwin. While both restructured to help the team financially, it doesn't guaranteed they won't be beat out by younger, more well-rounded players with more upside (and who are cheaper as well)...guys such as Fleming, Johnson or Looney and Kilgore. If they do retain their current roles (Haralson as a 1st down run stuff and Goodwin as the starting C), I think it's going to be a battle. And to further complicate the matter if they do make it, at what expense? What young guy gets cut and doesn't make the team? Then, if they both make the team it's possible they both make it as veteran backups too. Ohhhhh the possibilities.

But your point is VERY valid and true to the Niner-way...a perfect balance of veterans and young players. This has been and probably always will be our formula for Superbowl champion!
Originally posted by 9erReign:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by SofaKing:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Updated...thanks AB.

With only 1.088M to spare, who is getting cut? Extended? Thoughts?

Yikes, we're strapped for cash right now. Not sure how much money is required to sign the rookie class.

Initially, I had Manningham and Haralson as potential cap casualties, but they've both taken massive pay cuts so it looks like they're staying. I suppose they could cut some low-end roster types to clear a few mil. Tramaine Brock is scheduled to make $1.3 mil and he's a 5th or 6th corner.

Iupati and Crabtree are logical choices for an extension. Justin Smith could be a good option for an extension. I think he's on the books for $7.5 mil this year. We could extend him a couple years and lower the cap figure for this year.

Agreed.

These are my top potential cuts:
Goodwin - $4,350,000 - Potential
Whitner - $4,100,000 - Potential
B.Jennings - $1,161,000 - Potential
Rogers - $1,110,937 - Potential

Also, Boldin could be another who restructures his contract as well. Goodwin could be a cap casualty d/t Looney/Kilgore's growth at C (and upside). Whitner (who gave up 14 TD's last year alone) could be replaced by the new FA, Dahl.

Yeah nailed that one on the head bud.

Thanks...gotta think like a FO guys and "big picture." Goodwin's restructure helps the team immediately but it still doesn't guarantee he beats out Looney/Goodwin and if he does end up being a backup, he'll be a key backup at a reasonable price. I'm still thinking we "may" end up seeing Dahl moved over to SS soon to challenge Whitner. This could be a surprise cut or restructure as well. That is, once Reid starts to settle in at FS. Jennings is next in line IMO. He's already got two specialists challenging him right now and they both may be able to contribute in other fashions as well (versatility)...like what Harbaugh may want in his #3 QB. Rogers as already stated, is in a dog fight and if he loses, he TOO may be asked to restructure to a backup price or be cut.

So for now, one down (with no guarantees) but don't be surprised to see a few more moves.
B. Jennings is going to be here until he's 50. LMAO!!!
I guess the main question is what are the team needs. I don't see any glaring needs. A true shut-down corner you can put on an island every play? Sure. A strong safety who can hit, but has better coverage skills? Why not. Despite the panic some fans are exhibiting, we don't really know if we have a glaring need at receiver - we'll find out in the next few months.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
I guess the main question is what are the team needs. I don't see any glaring needs. A true shut-down corner you can put on an island every play? Sure. A strong safety who can hit, but has better coverage skills? Why not. Despite the panic some fans are exhibiting, we don't really know if we have a glaring need at receiver - we'll find out in the next few months.

Not many with much more depth and competition. I had a few aside from the WR issue with Crabtree going down...LOL:

Weaknesses/Miscellaneous: We still have not solved the SS issue with Whitner starting again (gave up 14 TD's last year alone) and I'm not sure if we have a quality slot CB matchup against specialists such as Harvin/Austin. NT is still a question as well but it appears we'll use more 4-man DL with plenty of rotation for all of the front 7. Scheme is the Theme this year. On offense, we should have even more weapons now with even more experience. Special Teams should be MUCH better from the PK to all the specialty athletes we have who can provide better coverage. Our PS will be used to develop some real gems as well. I have some surprises in my 53 but many will have speciality roles and can double on ST.
Updated per, perhaps the greatest signing of all time (+ salary updates): Raymond Ventrone AKA Zack Keasey II. Also, added Kassim Osgood...so far, no effects to my 53 (page 17). I'm not sure how either can make the team unless they can clearly provide value at WR or some other position.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jun 4, 2013 at 3:41 PM ]
OK, obviously, we are beefing up the coverage units big time...on top of who's already on the team such as Spillman/Brock and others. We'll assume in this case, Dan Skuta and Nick Moody (college) make the team and also continue to shine as ST players with true backup ILB ability.

BUT, there are only so many spots on the 53 so how can the following players make the team despite their ST mega-skills? We have gotten rid of players last year (Colin Jones) or let walk in FA (Blake Costanzo) who added just ST production. Are the days of the one-trick pony's over? If not and these guys make it, who do we cut?
  • Raymond Ventrone (ST/S) - did I read we had him catching passes from the slot the other day? ST ace but also adds ????
  • Kassim Osgood (ST/WR) - great size, some return experience and a pro bowl gunner. But how is he going to make it on a team with the following: X = A.J. Jenkins/Ricardo Lockette Y = Quinton Patton/Kyle Williams Z = Anquan Boldin; Mario Manningham & Michael Crabtree (PUP). We rarely run 3+ WR sets anyhow.
  • Marlon Moore (ST/WR) - more speed and deep threat ability over Osgood, also has some return experience and plays gunner as well.
  • Parys Haralson (OLB/ST) - OLB with run-stuffing ability but plays the WILL (pass rushing position); he will be competing with younger players such as Lemonier, Fleming and Johnson. How can he make it if 2 of the 3 are stout against the run, younger AND demonstrate pass rush ability?
  • Anthony Dixon (ST/RB) - asked coaches about learning other positions just to make the team last year. Now, he's competing against a mobile B.J. Daniels, Frank Gore, Kendall Hunter and LaMichael James; Marcus Lattimore (PUP) and even Bruce Miller and Alex Debniak.
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At this point, still early I know, It sure looks like Colt McCoy has the #2 quarterback slot locked up.