There are 104 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

The Baalke Effect...

  • Giedi
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 3,799
Originally posted by kronik:
Look at their OL and compare that to ours. And their D vs ours. They stockpile WR's and we stockpile OL and defensive players. That's the huge difference between the 2 teams imo. With that being said, I would love a sleeper speedy WR tomorrow as well as another CB to add to the mix. You don't need to use high draft picks to get quality players at those positions.

Since Baalke traded back to have 7 picks tomorrow, I assume he has alot of sleepers targetted.

Agree and I'll just add that Green Bay controls the ball with the pass. We control the ball with the power run. Same thought - ball control, but different personnel groupings, and different scheme. Still based on the WCO philosophy of *ball control* - both green bay and the 49ers employ elements of the WCO timed passing and option routing in the passing game, but Harbaugh's ball control philosophy has a huge ground element to it. We don't need WR's as much as Green Bay needs WR's. Our game is more towards O Linemen and RB's. Hyde is a great pick. He is a bruiser like Gore and may have even better hands than Gore. He'd be good in both Green Bay's and our Passing offense, but he's much better value for us in Harbaugh's power ground attack.
How many WRs have we bombed on? How many have we done well with by trade? And it isn't just us. WR is a great pick to bomb on for lots of teams. It is a tough , tough spot to pick high. Rashaun Woods was my favorite, AJ is right in there, but everyone knows the hx of the others. I would always prefer to take a Boldin than pick a guy who as supposed to be LIKE Boldin
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Here's the thing about the wideouts. We only got Johnson today... which that's cool and I'm happy about it. Buuuuut...

This team looks to draft TWELVE players. We don't need twelve players.

Now what I would have liked? The 49ers move up and take a WR in Round 1. Now, I know Baalke looked into trading and no team bit, so those are the breaks. Buuuuut...

This team keeps band-aid'ing the WR position, and the latest is Stevie Johnson. Now could the 49ers roll with Crabs, Boldin, & Johnson for the next 2-3 years? Sure, they could, but we know Boldin is gone soon and Lloyd is just insurance.

So your confidence in this situation basically comes down to Quinton Patton. I personally don't think he'll be anything more than a #3... a good #3 like Harry Douglas, but a #3 nevertheless. So that means the future of your team is... Crabtree and Johnson?

I don't love that. I don't love not having a franchise WR waiting in the wings. The Green Bay Packers have perfected this over the years. They took Jordy Nelson & James Jones when they already had Greg Jennings & Donald Driver. Then they took Randall Cobb when they had all five guys. Now they took Devante Adams with Jordy & Cobb & Brandon Boykin still on the roster.

See how they stack their talent at the position? They are never in need because they invest early.

But the 49ers have no investments besides Patton. So again, if you REALLY believe in Patton, then I guess you don't think we need anyone.

Short term, I'm OK with it. Long term? Once Boldin is gone, things could get weird.

Oh so you're one of those fans (media included) who wanted us to throw all our picks away and nab a top rated WR like Beckham in the teens? After we JUST picked up a cheap 1,000 x3 WR and who's signed through 2016 (this is a long-term plan in today's NFL - most contracts are really designed for 2 or 3 years with huge escalators in the back end, ala Rogers). But then wouldn't you complain that we didn't get the top-notch CB? See, in a draft you have to 1) Know your team needs and the type of players we need to run our scheme and 2) Note you start out picking 30th (every year) and trust that the most active GM there is, isn't going to sit on his ass. He WILL make this team better...it just may not be using your formula for the team.

Do you know the success rate for 1st and 2nd round WR's? It's 20%. Do you know the success rate of a 6th rounder for an accomplished veteran in Boldin and Stevie Johnson? It's 100%. Stevie IS our proven first round talent of which we basoically got for free. The other piece to this is knowing our team and how we use personnel. Quick, tell me the # of catches our 3rd and 4th leading receivers have. Hint: It ain't much and one is a FB. So even if Crabtree bolts for more $ (and he probably will), you still have two 1,000 receivers, a 1,000 TE and a promising rookie in Patton PLUS whoever else we develop over the next two years.

If there was any indiction we were going to be a dynamic passing attack, running 4 and 5 receiver sets on the regular, that was squashed with the acquisition of the best RB in the draft in Hyde.

Overall, we get your point in that we'd like to have had a franchise WR drop in our lap and ideally, we could groom and develop him into a 5-year WR slowly. That can still happen but it's not going to come at the expense of BPA and forfeiting all our picks for one player. Maybe next year we do that b/c we'll be 3-deep at every position...or Baalke FTW will go out and rape another GM for a stud WR, which is perfectly fine as well. It's not like we run a spread offense here.

As always such a extensive and eloquent retort ....

I do think we're going to tweak our offense a bit and run more 3-wide sets. I don't think the selection of Hyde changes that one bit. You will absolutely see Johnson, Boldin and Crabtree all on the field at the same time more often than you've seen in the past. Patton is going to have to work his ass off to get on the field and so will McDonald as a bass catcher. Johnson's addition could potentially move Boldin to the slot where he's MUCH better. IMHO, Hyde replaces Dixon x 1000 and becomes a true short yardage guy we've been desperately searching for since trying to acquire former Giant Brandon Jacobs. It's the Harbaugh philosophy to be able to attack any part of the field, regardless of personnel group either with scheme or ability.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
How many WRs have we bombed on? How many have we done well with by trade? And it isn't just us. WR is a great pick to bomb on for lots of teams. It is a tough , tough spot to pick high. Rashaun Woods was my favorite, AJ is right in there, but everyone knows the hx of the others. I would always prefer to take a Boldin than pick a guy who as supposed to be LIKE Boldin

This is a great point. I heard a stat that he bust rated on WR in the first round over the last decade is like 62-64%. Then you have guys like Johnson and colston who are 7th rounders that develop into pro bowlers. Sorry, I missed NC post earlier that essentially said the sameting. It is a fascinating stat nonetheless.
[ Edited by Niners816 on May 10, 2014 at 11:40 AM ]
Well, the CB competition will be tough!!!
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Here's the thing about the wideouts. We only got Johnson today... which that's cool and I'm happy about it. Buuuuut...

This team looks to draft TWELVE players. We don't need twelve players.

Now what I would have liked? The 49ers move up and take a WR in Round 1. Now, I know Baalke looked into trading and no team bit, so those are the breaks. Buuuuut...

This team keeps band-aid'ing the WR position, and the latest is Stevie Johnson. Now could the 49ers roll with Crabs, Boldin, & Johnson for the next 2-3 years? Sure, they could, but we know Boldin is gone soon and Lloyd is just insurance.

So your confidence in this situation basically comes down to Quinton Patton. I personally don't think he'll be anything more than a #3... a good #3 like Harry Douglas, but a #3 nevertheless. So that means the future of your team is... Crabtree and Johnson?

I don't love that. I don't love not having a franchise WR waiting in the wings. The Green Bay Packers have perfected this over the years. They took Jordy Nelson & James Jones when they already had Greg Jennings & Donald Driver. Then they took Randall Cobb when they had all five guys. Now they took Devante Adams with Jordy & Cobb & Brandon Boykin still on the roster.

See how they stack their talent at the position? They are never in need because they invest early.

But the 49ers have no investments besides Patton. So again, if you REALLY believe in Patton, then I guess you don't think we need anyone.

Short term, I'm OK with it. Long term? Once Boldin is gone, things could get weird.

Completely agree!!

This is the only part about Baalke that I don't get. Everyone said it was a deep draft for WR, there were all types of WRs out there, there really were only 3 WR out of our reach, so why not take one or two and develop them?

I like Ellington, but I would have taken grabbed one or two more and passed on Stevie Johnson. What is it about WR that is so difficult for our team to evaluate? I know Baalke sticks to his board, and always seems to get more picks, which is good, but there never seems to be any kind of conviction in going up to grab a WR. So they liked Beckam. Great. Who else? Are they really telling us no one else was worth it? Isn't everyone else telling us it was exactly the opposite?

I
[ Edited by Big_Daddy on May 10, 2014 at 2:34 PM ]
Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Completely agree!!

This is the only part about Baalke that I don't get. Everyone said it was a deep draft for WR, there were all types of WRs out there, there really were only 3 WR out of our reach, so why not take one or two and develop them?

I like Ellington, but I would have taken grabbed one or two more and passed on Stevie Johnson. What is it about WR that is so difficult for our team to evaluate? I know Baalke sticks to his board, and always seems to get more picks, which is good, but there never seems to be any kind of conviction in going up to grab a WR. So they liked Beckam. Great. Who else? Are they really telling us no one else was worth it? Isn't everyone else telling us it was exactly the opposite?

I

Just look at the type of WR we've added and that should answer your question. We weren't looking for another Crab/Boldin type, but someone with speed, hence the interest in ODB and eventually adding Stevie and Ellington.
Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Here's the thing about the wideouts. We only got Johnson today... which that's cool and I'm happy about it. Buuuuut...

This team looks to draft TWELVE players. We don't need twelve players.

Now what I would have liked? The 49ers move up and take a WR in Round 1. Now, I know Baalke looked into trading and no team bit, so those are the breaks. Buuuuut...

This team keeps band-aid'ing the WR position, and the latest is Stevie Johnson. Now could the 49ers roll with Crabs, Boldin, & Johnson for the next 2-3 years? Sure, they could, but we know Boldin is gone soon and Lloyd is just insurance.

So your confidence in this situation basically comes down to Quinton Patton. I personally don't think he'll be anything more than a #3... a good #3 like Harry Douglas, but a #3 nevertheless. So that means the future of your team is... Crabtree and Johnson?

I don't love that. I don't love not having a franchise WR waiting in the wings. The Green Bay Packers have perfected this over the years. They took Jordy Nelson & James Jones when they already had Greg Jennings & Donald Driver. Then they took Randall Cobb when they had all five guys. Now they took Devante Adams with Jordy & Cobb & Brandon Boykin still on the roster.

See how they stack their talent at the position? They are never in need because they invest early.

But the 49ers have no investments besides Patton. So again, if you REALLY believe in Patton, then I guess you don't think we need anyone.

Short term, I'm OK with it. Long term? Once Boldin is gone, things could get weird.

Completely agree!!

This is the only part about Baalke that I don't get. Everyone said it was a deep draft for WR, there were all types of WRs out there, there really were only 3 WR out of our reach, so why not take one or two and develop them?

I like Ellington, but I would have taken grabbed one or two more and passed on Stevie Johnson. What is it about WR that is so difficult for our team to evaluate? I know Baalke sticks to his board, and always seems to get more picks, which is good, but there never seems to be any kind of conviction in going up to grab a WR. So they liked Beckam. Great. Who else? Are they really telling us no one else was worth it? Isn't everyone else telling us it was exactly the opposite?

I

But who do they take snaps from dude?

I think that maybe Beckham really was a target and we were prepared to go to 17 for him, but Giants taking him at 12 meant we had to reassess. Next day we trade for Johnson. What rookie take snaps from Boldin, Crabs and Johnson? Not to mention Patton is further ahead in the play book, thus a high round pick is for a guy we have to stash on the roster as he might go somewhere else from PS, and he can't get the playtime he needs.

Not to mention veteran receivers will help out Kaep more. I think once Kaep is seasoned ~3+ years and Boldin has retired, then we look at developmental guys.
Originally posted by Giedi:
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Here's the thing about the wideouts. We only got Johnson today... which that's cool and I'm happy about it. Buuuuut...

This team looks to draft TWELVE players. We don't need twelve players.

Now what I would have liked? The 49ers move up and take a WR in Round 1. Now, I know Baalke looked into trading and no team bit, so those are the breaks. Buuuuut...

This team keeps band-aid'ing the WR position, and the latest is Stevie Johnson. Now could the 49ers roll with Crabs, Boldin, & Johnson for the next 2-3 years? Sure, they could, but we know Boldin is gone soon and Lloyd is just insurance.

So your confidence in this situation basically comes down to Quinton Patton. I personally don't think he'll be anything more than a #3... a good #3 like Harry Douglas, but a #3 nevertheless. So that means the future of your team is... Crabtree and Johnson?

I don't love that. I don't love not having a franchise WR waiting in the wings. The Green Bay Packers have perfected this over the years. They took Jordy Nelson & James Jones when they already had Greg Jennings & Donald Driver. Then they took Randall Cobb when they had all five guys. Now they took Devante Adams with Jordy & Cobb & Brandon Boykin still on the roster.

See how they stack their talent at the position? They are never in need because they invest early.

But the 49ers have no investments besides Patton. So again, if you REALLY believe in Patton, then I guess you don't think we need anyone.

Short term, I'm OK with it. Long term? Once Boldin is gone, things could get weird.

Still peeved the draft went in the direction of a trade down instead of a trade up?

Heh. I think the draft went in that direction because it was just too expensive to trade up, and the Steven Johnson trade eliminated the need to trade up. But I'm with you on the need for WR speed and a young talented CB. I think they fill those needs today.

Two ways you get vertical threat receivers. One way is to get pure speed to back off DBs the other way is the Jerry Rice method. Great quickness and strength to beat the jam at the LOS and size to box out the db on a deep pass. I think stevie is the latter way.

Hey, I was right about Baalke wanting to trade up. Just couldn't find a trade partner.
Originally posted by NCommand:
So let's recap...you guys can list the minor trades here. But essentially, he moved up one spot and acquired a 4th for next year, essentially, making the WR Stevie Johnson trade, for free. Then he moves UP one spot and it only takes a 7th. Talk about pwnage! Then, he goes full value after our biggest need (S) who essentially, kills three birds with one stone (Ward = Nickle and pushes Cox and Wright/Future S next to Reid/ST punt rush team). The value? He gets the best RB in Hyde (esp. for OUR offense) in case Lattimore doesn't work out, gets the best C in the draft by far in case Kilgore doesn't pan out and then gets the red-shirt OT/OG (Thomas) in case Iupati wants to bail (more bargaining power for us here as well). Keeping with the theme, the Johnson trade alone ensures we hold all the bargaining power with Crabtree if he wants to stay with us. Essentially, he just pushed all of our weaknesses to major competitive positions WITH depth while also filling every need now and into the future while ensuring we have the upper hand in contract negotiations.

For those vaginas still crying over a CB or WR? Baalke has a track record of finding and developing (Donatell) CB's in the very late rounds and literally, off the streets in Brock, Cox, Cooper, Morris, Cook, Nnamdi, Wright, Swanson, etc. Some will work out and some won't. Ward pushes both Cox and Wright at the #3 with Brock and Cully solidified as the #1 and #2. Anything else is only bonus and who is going to better than these top 4? WR? With Gore, Hyde, Lattimore, Hampton, Hunter, Miller and James, how many passes do you expect the #3 to get? And what about McDonald who's also expected to be incorporated into the passing game this year. Right now we have Boldin, Crabtree, Johnson and Patton...Baldwin, Patton, Osgood, Wiley, etc. Who are we going to draft that is going to push Patton for one pass a game?

The only need pick we have left is a dynamic returner and he may already be on our roster in Devon Wiley (who also plays the slot).

And just chill...the UDFA's typically have a winner in there as well and let's not forget the grocery-long list of first-time/second year players who are expected to contribute THIS year.

And wait, we still have rounds 4-7 tomorrow as well?

...and people think Baalke gets a free pass for whatever. Good grief!!
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,743
Now what is Baalke's deal?

http://www.csnbayarea.com/49ers/baalke-wishes-sam-had-gone-team-outside-nfc-west

Originally posted by Big_Daddy:
Originally posted by NickSh49:
Here's the thing about the wideouts. We only got Johnson today... which that's cool and I'm happy about it. Buuuuut...

This team looks to draft TWELVE players. We don't need twelve players.

Now what I would have liked? The 49ers move up and take a WR in Round 1. Now, I know Baalke looked into trading and no team bit, so those are the breaks. Buuuuut...

This team keeps band-aid'ing the WR position, and the latest is Stevie Johnson. Now could the 49ers roll with Crabs, Boldin, & Johnson for the next 2-3 years? Sure, they could, but we know Boldin is gone soon and Lloyd is just insurance.

So your confidence in this situation basically comes down to Quinton Patton. I personally don't think he'll be anything more than a #3... a good #3 like Harry Douglas, but a #3 nevertheless. So that means the future of your team is... Crabtree and Johnson?

I don't love that. I don't love not having a franchise WR waiting in the wings. The Green Bay Packers have perfected this over the years. They took Jordy Nelson & James Jones when they already had Greg Jennings & Donald Driver. Then they took Randall Cobb when they had all five guys. Now they took Devante Adams with Jordy & Cobb & Brandon Boykin still on the roster.

See how they stack their talent at the position? They are never in need because they invest early.

But the 49ers have no investments besides Patton. So again, if you REALLY believe in Patton, then I guess you don't think we need anyone.

Short term, I'm OK with it. Long term? Once Boldin is gone, things could get weird.

Completely agree!!

This is the only part about Baalke that I don't get. Everyone said it was a deep draft for WR, there were all types of WRs out there, there really were only 3 WR out of our reach, so why not take one or two and develop them?

I like Ellington, but I would have taken grabbed one or two more and passed on Stevie Johnson. What is it about WR that is so difficult for our team to evaluate? I know Baalke sticks to his board, and always seems to get more picks, which is good, but there never seems to be any kind of conviction in going up to grab a WR. So they liked Beckam. Great. Who else? Are they really telling us no one else was worth it? Isn't everyone else telling us it was exactly the opposite?

I

The 49ers and Packers have two very different draft philosophies IMO. GB continuously drafts WRs in the 2nd and 3rd rd, so they have a nice young WR core every year. However, it leaves them severely lacking in depth in other areas. It has cost them the past several years, lacking quality talent on the o-line and defense.

So while some people here are jealous over their WR situation, I guarantee you they are jealous of our entire roster. Our approach has resulted in a much better roster, despite them having a Top 3 QB. We've owned them repeatedly. I could care less about their WR depth.
[ Edited by SofaKing on May 10, 2014 at 8:58 PM ]
why do so many of you b***h about our history of drafting wrs? we already have crabs, boldin, johnson, lloyd, patton, ellington and vd to catch passes. who gives a f**k that we can't draft a #1 wr in the 4th f**king round. we are stacked and ready to rock and roll.
Originally posted by DonnieDarko:
why do so many of you b***h about our history of drafting wrs? we already have crabs, boldin, johnson, lloyd, patton, ellington and vd to catch passes. who gives a f**k that we can't draft a #1 wr in the 4th f**king round. we are stacked and ready to rock and roll.



It's funny because people are pointing to GB, but I like our WR depth better. I'll take Crab/Boldin/Johnson over any 3-man combination GB has any day of the week.
So we already established drafting WRs is a crapshoot, winning 20% of the time. ( it sure seems less than that, but...). So how many WRs did baalke have in camp immediately after the draft last yr? It was a bunch, but either 9 or 10 I can remember. Granted some were not here long, but nonetheless, baalke had a good look at maybe as many as 10, but 8 for sure. How many stuck? Yeah, just a couple, and patton really is the remnants. So how many WRs did we end up with? Well Ellington in draft, and 2 by trade, both slot potential and Stevie can be deep threat besides. No guessing on these guys, everybody has seen the 2 of them play in the NFL. College talent is immaterial. They ARE NFL WRs. And we got Stevie for basically nothing by the time Trent had the dust settle. Now is that better, equal or worse than getting a WR at #18 and trading half our picks to get him...and then all we have is a heralded college player. Advantage? Baalke.

Ok CBs. Baalke gets his man at #30, smallish, but very good. NO idea if he makes the squad but would bet heavy on it. My guess prior to draft was move up to get the best CB baalke liked and then get another(NC politely talked me out of it)....burning more picks and virtually our draft would be over. We would not have answered our Center need, nor our ILB potential need if things go south for aldon &/or don't go well post op for Navarro. We get another Frank Gore in Hyde, having our RB in the pipeline, and I bet he gets some touches this yr. Oops, we got too many RBs. Well JH and Trent both have said LMJ isn't going anywhere, so bet on him being the one going. Also makes me wonder if lattimore is going to turn out ok from his surgery. We get an OG, altho has an ACL, so another OL in the pipeline.

What happens then? Well we get 3 more CBs meaning 1 out of every three picks of the 12 was a CB/S (ok, DB). 1 out of 3. That is amazing. I got my CBs back to back almost, but just way later than planned. They may be worthless, they may stick. It may also turn out that our #2 CB is already on the squad, but sitting right now at #3-6. Maybe trent knows we have a starter already besides Brock. But, with drafting 1/3 of our picks as DBs tells me that those CBs in the #3-6 spots are NOT showing dominance, and so we bring in 4 more DBs(actually only 3 CBs).

Late late, we get more DL, OL, a WR Ellington who has no expectations...if he hits, fantastic. If not, trent fixed up WR with trades, not picks. WE get a late QB, altho we now have nobody who can take over if kap goes down, esp against elites. That is a bit of a worry, but knock on wood, kap has good hx of non injury.

Put that all together and then you know trent will have 5 or 6 more UDFA CBs and same # of WRs in camp for a look see.

So I ask: How in the hell could one have done a better job at all our needs with more studs than we ended up with? To me it would seem tough to beat baalke's draft and approach, tho some wanted that hotshot WR , others wanted that hotshot top CB. Well other teams got those guys and baalke just made this team way better, with a chance at perfection if one of the 3 CBs hits or Ellington hits. The ILB was rated about 20 slots higher, so this was value. Same for Hyde, ranked about 34-ish. Value. Center is solid and would have to be an improvement on Goodwin, and also can play guard...oops, adios Snyder, and we know and want Goodwin gone.

If you are unhappy with this ,ok, that is your opinion. But we done good AND we went into draft with 43 locks (AB 81) and then our 2 new WRs makes 45. OUr first pick is certain to be a lock. We will upgrade at RB by a huge margin, ILB possible need as noted above...but trent has it covered. My only concern is Qb, but I have to assume JH feels gabbert can win the uncontested games but lose to elites...but kap has good hx of not being injured. I wish we had a solid backup, but you can't have everything.

Maybe not perfect, but certainly in the 93 to 95% range, or a strong A. Oddly, a guy not friendly to us, Mel kipper thot baalke killed it by end of day 2, and gave us best grade in draft. Who wants to argue with that?