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Do we "scheme" our passing attack?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Thanks NC--my original post was three times as long but I firgured no one would bother reading it. When you have an emphasis on "a" specific receiver it narrows the options for an inexperienced QB but really puts the team in a bind if the other team guesses right or the receiver slips and falls down (or any number of other problems that can happen with one guy). When you have four or five options on every down someone is bound to be open. I realize that neither Smith or Kaepernick is Joe Montana, so don't expect them to have his field vision, but I really think Roman's simplification of the passing game was too great against NFL defenses.

I may have to get over the fact that there was only one Walsh and he won't be helping anytime soon. I can't think of another coach in history who consistently designed game plans to take advantage of defenses as well...or half as well!
I would have read it.........
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Not sure anyone is or has said that...but as of right now they have morphed from a spread/safe QB to a Pistol/dynamic QB and managed to reach the Super Bowl. Now they have the off season to surround CK with the peices to support his strengths--another first rate receiver, a better line (whether due to experience or an upgrade at center), and plays desinged to take advantage of his abilities.

You might beware of "talks with Walsh" as Singletary also had those talks...didn't seem to help him much. Harbaugh is lightyears ahead of MS as far as offensive strategy is concerned, but we still can't assume he is able to channel Walsh at will.
There was a pretty substantial difference in the quality and depth of their relationships. Singletary reportedly had a few cordial talks with Walsh - that's it. According to Harbaugh, he was over at Walsh's office at Stanford almost every day. Walsh was a big Harbaugh backer at Stanford and reportedly took an interest in him to the extent that he wanted to have lengthy discussions about everything from practice routines to scheming for defensive weaknesses to the general strategy of building a team. I have a friend who works at Stanford and he told me Walsh and Harbaugh were often seen having lunch together and engaged in intense discussions. There was a much stronger bond between Harbaugh and Walsh than a lot of people realize.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
There was a pretty substantial difference in the quality and depth of their relationships. Singletary reportedly had a few cordial talks with Walsh - that's it. According to Harbaugh, he was over at Walsh's office at Stanford almost every day. Walsh was a big Harbaugh backer at Stanford and reportedly took an interest in him to the extent that he wanted to have lengthy discussions about everything from practice routines to scheming for defensive weaknesses to the general strategy of building a team. I have a friend who works at Stanford and he told me Walsh and Harbaugh were often seen having lunch together and engaged in intense discussions. There was a much stronger bond between Harbaugh and Walsh than a lot of people realize.


Yes, thought of that as I hit the post button! I should never compare Singletary, or any aspect of his coaching, to a real NFL HC. Harbaugh is a football wonk and has been since childhood, whereas Singleary has been more a motivator, non-detail oriented guy. He no doubt talked general philosophy with Walsh (as did thousands of coaches) but JH had the background and daily access few, if any, other coaches had.

But I'm still not sure Harbaugh agreed with Walsh's philosophy or has his depth of knowledge. Walsh studied football from a coaching perspective for his entire adult life, starting in college and writing his masters thesis on defense. Then he worked with just about every great offensive mind in the game over years. I do see Harbaugh trying to use many variations of personnel, formation, motion, etc. to confuse the defenses, but the jumbo packages seem to be overused by any standard, let alone the WCO.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Yes, thought of that as I hit the post button! I should never compare Singletary, or any aspect of his coaching, to a real NFL HC. Harbaugh is a football wonk and has been since childhood, whereas Singleary has been more a motivator, non-detail oriented guy. He no doubt talked general philosophy with Walsh (as did thousands of coaches) but JH had the background and daily access few, if any, other coaches had.

But I'm still not sure Harbaugh agreed with Walsh's philosophy or has his depth of knowledge. Walsh studied football from a coaching perspective for his entire adult life, starting in college and writing his masters thesis on defense. Then he worked with just about every great offensive mind in the game over years. I do see Harbaugh trying to use many variations of personnel, formation, motion, etc. to confuse the defenses, but the jumbo packages seem to be overused by any standard, let alone the WCO.
Well, you're absolutely right that they are not at all alike personally. But, some years ago, before Harbaugh took the job, I did read an article, I think it was Glenn Dickey or Lowell Cohen, one of the old timers who were close to Walsh that Walsh was intriqued by Harbaugh's personality and thought he was an interesting combination of football wonk and fiery player. The article said Walsh was taking a personal interest in Harbaugh. I'd like to see Harbaugh calm down a little. I actually do see some similarities in the way they approach a game from the standpoint of trying to capitalize on an opponents short-comings but Harbaugh has a way to go before he gives me the same impression of cool, calculating during a game that I always got with Walsh.
Originally posted by GNielsen:
Well, you're absolutely right that they are not at all alike personally. But, some years ago, before Harbaugh took the job, I did read an article, I think it was Glenn Dickey or Lowell Cohen, one of the old timers who were close to Walsh that Walsh was intriqued by Harbaugh's personality and thought he was an interesting combination of football wonk and fiery player. The article said Walsh was taking a personal interest in Harbaugh. I'd like to see Harbaugh calm down a little. I actually do see some similarities in the way they approach a game from the standpoint of trying to capitalize on an opponents short-comings but Harbaugh has a way to go before he gives me the same impression of cool, calculating during a game that I always got with Walsh.


The major similarity, and I pointed this out some time ago when Harbaugh was hired, is that they live, breath and eat football. Both have a habbit of doodling plays at all times of the day...when they aren't/weren't working. Articles have pointed out JH's tendency to sit in on ST meetings while a starting QB...shows how committed he is.

Many similarities, but many differences as well. Walsh thought in terms of speed and tenacity, while JH goes for Speed and power. Walsh used a jumbo package in the 80's but only occasionally, JH uses it as an integral part of his game plan. How much of this is necessity for both coaches given player's ability and time in the system?

I expect next year to be a more power oriented offense, more like Stanford in the Orange Bowl. The OLine will have another year of experience in the system and they will have (I hope) Gore, Walker, James, Dixon and possibly another good back. And they should have another WR who can balance and help Crabtree...who seems much more motivated. Might be much more verticle as well with the passing game. They need at least four WR's to offset injuries.

Love both coaches but am still waiting to evaluate Harbaugh after his career is more seasoned...better yet, over! LOL!
[ Edited by dtg_9er on Feb 16, 2013 at 11:33 AM ]
Of course, we don't really know what Walsh would be doing right now. I know he was appalled when visiting a Mariucci practice in the 90's because he didn't think Mariucci was changing the offense enough from year to year. He was all about following trends in the game and didn't want to ever be predictable. Actually, I'm not going to be surprised if the new wrinkle Harbaugh and Roman add is more a departure from power into some more spread offenses from time to time. They've got the power thing down and I'm sure they'll stick with it almost all the time. But, they've had some problems with bigger more physical defenses and I think they'll deal with them by spreading out. I'm not suggesting they'll do that a lot, but it's really the only thing they haven't done yet and I expect them to keep adding wrinkles. Walsh used to say that the only problem with depending on power is that in the NFL, you're always going to come up against someone who is stronger.
Yes, but it will depend on having receivers who can beat DBs and run precise routes. Hope Jenkins gets to Atlanta soon to work out with CK...so far he is busy elsewhere. Walsh changed his offense but never his philosophy that it was easier to establish the short to medium pass to support the run than the other way around. That is the difference I have been mentioning and worrying about regarding Harbaugh's learning from Walsh...very different but can be successful with a passing game that is in sync...and of course, CK's ability to run.
Very great to hear that Lockette and Hall are already in Atlanta working out with Kaepernick and that Jenkins is on his way. I have high hopes for Lockette because I think his friendship with Kaepernick and his family might be a catalyst and provide extra incentive for him to get things exactly right. At 6'3" and a 4.34 40, he has the gifts. If he can get his game together, he could be a real find.
I'd like for us to get back to scripting the first 15-25 plays of the game. 49ers terms of old seemed to always come out ready and firing. There are many benefits. All of the players are well aware of what to do and there is no confusion. We probably save one time out because it seems we lose so many trying to avoid delay of game penalties. It also gives the team an idea of how teams will defend certain plays later on in the game.
Originally posted by LifelongNiner:
I'd like for us to get back to scripting the first 15-25 plays of the game. 49ers terms of old seemed to always come out ready and firing. There are many benefits. All of the players are well aware of what to do and there is no confusion. We probably save one time out because it seems we lose so many trying to avoid delay of game penalties. It also gives the team an idea of how teams will defend certain plays later on in the game.


This is more common now and I really don't know how many coaches scripted a series to start the games. The key was that Walsh was doing it to both see what the D would do and to set up the D for later plays. When D's thwarted this by changing up at intervals throughout the game, becoming less predictable, it became less effective. Walsh would have adapted though, as he always did.
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
This is more common now and I really don't know how many coaches scripted a series to start the games. The key was that Walsh was doing it to both see what the D would do and to set up the D for later plays. When D's thwarted this by changing up at intervals throughout the game, becoming less predictable, it became less effective. Walsh would have adapted though, as he always did.

I think it'd be great if we can script our plays. One of the strengths of the coaching staff, in my opinion, is their ability to adjust and adapt. There are some teams who wouldn't benefit from scripting, but I think our staff definitely could benefit from the advantages of scripting.