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49ers Rudimentary Pass Offense

Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by TheGoldDiggerrrr:
I don't think anyone is truly worried about losing him, actually most would be happy to see him go so we can replace him with someone that has more exp calling plays. The running game is great under roman. The passing attack no so much, but it seems to be improving that could be do to kap or that might be jim calling the passing plays he likes and veto the play roman calls. Again Roman is only in his second year as a Oc ever, if he's leaving for a headcoach it won't be tell after teh playoffs and mostlikely a college team, this isn't a top 5 offense were talking about here. Until than im not worried about a nfl team taking him until that happens.

Norv. Think about it.
Ok, I see your point hell the charges also have JImmy Raye as the next possible G.M. lol Owner is nuts. If we lose roman, than I'd be giving norv a call, him and jim would be amazing to watch great plays, Jim's running game with Norv's passing!!! O YEAH
[ Edited by TheGoldDiggerrrr on Jan 1, 2013 at 8:51 AM ]
49ers running game is ranked were it is because of Frank Gore and not because of Greg Roman.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
Yet statistically it is one of the worst passing offenses on 3rd down, one of the worst in the red-zone, basically the worst in the 1st quarter of a football game, the offense as a whole has one of the highest amounts of 3 and out's.................so yeah, sorry if I fail to be impressed by this incredible passing offense that still can't convert a single third down to save its life when it really NEEDS to.


Take away the statistics garnered from beating up on creampuff's such as Buffalo and Arizona and this is still the same mediocre, ineffective and unreliable offense, regardless of "efficiency" which is utter b******t, because throwing a 5 yard checkdown on 3rd and 12 improves your "efficiency" while doing jack crap for what is up on the scoreboard.


For all its "efficiency" and "high productiveness", this passing offense has been shutdown like clockwork, every 3rd game this season, along with several other games where they struggled to move the ball whatsoever.

Without the defense consistently bailing them out, this offense would have lost us 11 to 12 games. It's a doormat offense coupled to an elite defense that constantly saves its' ass. Our big wins in New Orleans and New England were all keyed by the defense turning over the opponent.
The 49ers passing game has been rather basic under Roman, however, I am not entirely Roman's fault. There are multiple "reasons," IMO. Here are the ones I see:

The lockout prevented the development of anything more than the basics sets and routes.

The 49ers have not had the quality of receivers that are capable of running a wide range of routes. Hence, Harbaugh/Roman designed an offense around basic routes that could be taught efficiently to receivers who were limited in their skill sets, ie., lack of speed, agility, quickness, etc. Consequently, the passing game can be fairly efficient against average to slightly above average defenses but when it has faced teams with very good secondaries and linebackers, such as the Giants, it has been exposed for its lack of diversity and talent.

Now I come to a point that I have been observing over the past season; Harbaugh is so firmly committed to his concept of power running augmented by an efficient but not at all innovative or creative, that he either does not see the limitations or is incapable of developing a more sophisticated passing attack. As of now, I believe it is obvious that the lack of quality in receivers is still a hurdle that will not be crossed this season. (Crabtree is doing very well but no one else on the current active roster will be a part of this team when the passing game is truly a threat on the level of a GB.) However (and I will get flamed by some for saying this) I do not believe Harbaugh/Roman are capable of getting the max out of the receivers. Now I know that there was only one Bill Walsh but if Walsh could win a Super Bowl with a still inexperienced game manager named Joe Montana and a receiver corp of Freddie Solomon (on the backside of his career), Dwight Clark (still developing), Charle Young and some other very forgettable guys, the current coaching staff should be able to generate a lot more than we have yet seen from this group. Frankly, I put this back on JH. Either he does not see Roman's limitations or he is so stubbornly committed to "his scheme" that he does see the limitations in his own mirror.

The truth is probably a combination of all of these but I am shifting more and more of the blame to the coaching staff. How that gets divided up will be played out in the coming weeks and the off-season.
I think the Niners passing game sucks because we don't really have an elite WR. Crabtree is a good WR but he's not elite. If he was playing for Packers, he would be the #3 option, at best #2.

In today's NFL, speed kills. We don't have a speedy WR to stretch the field.
Originally posted by dj43:
The 49ers passing game has been rather basic under Roman, however, I am not entirely Roman's fault. There are multiple "reasons," IMO. Here are the ones I see:

The lockout prevented the development of anything more than the basics sets and routes.

The 49ers have not had the quality of receivers that are capable of running a wide range of routes. Hence, Harbaugh/Roman designed an offense around basic routes that could be taught efficiently to receivers who were limited in their skill sets, ie., lack of speed, agility, quickness, etc. Consequently, the passing game can be fairly efficient against average to slightly above average defenses but when it has faced teams with very good secondaries and linebackers, such as the Giants, it has been exposed for its lack of diversity and talent.

Now I come to a point that I have been observing over the past season; Harbaugh is so firmly committed to his concept of power running augmented by an efficient but not at all innovative or creative, that he either does not see the limitations or is incapable of developing a more sophisticated passing attack. As of now, I believe it is obvious that the lack of quality in receivers is still a hurdle that will not be crossed this season. (Crabtree is doing very well but no one else on the current active roster will be a part of this team when the passing game is truly a threat on the level of a GB.) However (and I will get flamed by some for saying this) I do not believe Harbaugh/Roman are capable of getting the max out of the receivers. Now I know that there was only one Bill Walsh but if Walsh could win a Super Bowl with a still inexperienced game manager named Joe Montana and a receiver corp of Freddie Solomon (on the backside of his career), Dwight Clark (still developing), Charle Young and some other very forgettable guys, the current coaching staff should be able to generate a lot more than we have yet seen from this group. Frankly, I put this back on JH. Either he does not see Roman's limitations or he is so stubbornly committed to "his scheme" that he does see the limitations in his own mirror.

The truth is probably a combination of all of these but I am shifting more and more of the blame to the coaching staff. How that gets divided up will be played out in the coming weeks and the off-season.

I personally don't believe the limited receivers thesis. There are other teams doing more with similar talent/experience at receiver. I believe it has more to do with Coaching and an inability to see the limitations in your own scheme per the above.

THE BEST EXAMPLE of this limited "vision" is the deficiencies this staff appears to have in self scouting and pre-emptive correction. The only adapt AFTER a team has exposed their scheme problems. Thus the W-W-L pattern. Every third game an good opposing coaching staff has a way of blowing up the 49ers plan -- Coughlin, Fischer, (I can't bring myself to add Carrol here ).

The coaching needs to improve its ability to spot it's own tendencies and weaknesses before opponents do and adapt the scheme pre-emptively.
Originally posted by HearstFan:
Originally posted by dj43:
The 49ers passing game has been rather basic under Roman, however, I am not entirely Roman's fault. There are multiple "reasons," IMO. Here are the ones I see:

The lockout prevented the development of anything more than the basics sets and routes.

The 49ers have not had the quality of receivers that are capable of running a wide range of routes. Hence, Harbaugh/Roman designed an offense around basic routes that could be taught efficiently to receivers who were limited in their skill sets, ie., lack of speed, agility, quickness, etc. Consequently, the passing game can be fairly efficient against average to slightly above average defenses but when it has faced teams with very good secondaries and linebackers, such as the Giants, it has been exposed for its lack of diversity and talent.

Now I come to a point that I have been observing over the past season; Harbaugh is so firmly committed to his concept of power running augmented by an efficient but not at all innovative or creative, that he either does not see the limitations or is incapable of developing a more sophisticated passing attack. As of now, I believe it is obvious that the lack of quality in receivers is still a hurdle that will not be crossed this season. (Crabtree is doing very well but no one else on the current active roster will be a part of this team when the passing game is truly a threat on the level of a GB.) However (and I will get flamed by some for saying this) I do not believe Harbaugh/Roman are capable of getting the max out of the receivers. Now I know that there was only one Bill Walsh but if Walsh could win a Super Bowl with a still inexperienced game manager named Joe Montana and a receiver corp of Freddie Solomon (on the backside of his career), Dwight Clark (still developing), Charle Young and some other very forgettable guys, the current coaching staff should be able to generate a lot more than we have yet seen from this group. Frankly, I put this back on JH. Either he does not see Roman's limitations or he is so stubbornly committed to "his scheme" that he does see the limitations in his own mirror.

The truth is probably a combination of all of these but I am shifting more and more of the blame to the coaching staff. How that gets divided up will be played out in the coming weeks and the off-season.

I personally don't believe the limited receivers thesis. There are other teams doing more with similar talent/experience at receiver. I believe it has more to do with Coaching and an inability to see the limitations in your own scheme per the above.

THE BEST EXAMPLE of this limited "vision" is the deficiencies this staff appears to have in self scouting and pre-emptive correction. The only adapt AFTER a team has exposed their scheme problems. Thus the W-W-L pattern. Every third game an good opposing coaching staff has a way of blowing up the 49ers plan -- Coughlin, Fischer, (I can't bring myself to add Carrol here ).

The coaching needs to improve its ability to spot it's own tendencies and weaknesses before opponents do and adapt the scheme pre-emptively.
Since we are in fundamental agreement on the biggest source of the problem, I will only point out, in defense of the "limited receiver" portion, that Baalke/Harbaugh went out after last season and signed Manningham and Moss, and used the #1 pick on AJ Jenkins. To me, that points a spotlight on the fact the receiving corp WAS limited and they recognized it. The results of those moves are still to be decided as Harbaugh has failed to develop Jenkins and Moss has been used very sparingly. Manningham was the 3rd option in NY and he has still not developed the ability to run sideline routes. Also, his lack of health has been a limiting factor. That leaves the team with only Crabtree as a reliable WR.

Chicken/egg deal.
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
I'm surprised the media didn't comment on it other than on the radio. If you pay attention, you can see Harbaugh holding a play chart out and visibly making the calls, I've seen him do it a few times before, especially last year, but it really got going in the 2nd half of the Seattle game, whereas in the first half he was simply walking around like normal. The Cardinals game started the same way....and then he started going for the chart more in the 2nd and 3rd quarter. By the time the 4th quarter came around, he wasn't doing it anymore.


I think what's happening is that he's been enforcing his veto power on calls more often ever since that option play against the Rams. When the playcalling doesn't go well, he appears to be pulling the hook on Roman and taking over.

WOW, you sure do draw some conclusions on limited facts. That's just insane reasoning.

You do know that calls have to come in from the sideline and not the booth right? Harbaugh relays the called plays to the QB. Any other conclusions about a chart, about a play in St. Louis is just lousy logic. I'm tired of assumed knowledge and tangential reasoning in this forum, for every GOFD there's 10 detractors.
[ Edited by Shorteous on Jan 1, 2013 at 11:44 AM ]
Originally posted by SkyGod:
How many of you seen all our Super Bowl teams play?

Let me post a reminder here for those who may have missed watching these teams. Go back and look at the films. The 49ers SB teams all had dominating offenses with Montana & Young hiting Rice Taylor & TE Brent Jones in stride on quick slants and deep routes for excel YAC. Roman's passing offense and WR routes and plays are not even in the same league. And as another poster pointed out Roger Craig changed the game for RB's catching passes out of the backfield for over 1,000 yards several times. Roman's offense doesn't run screens and doesn't get the ball to Gore out of the backfield or to our TE Davis. And as Jerry Rice said last year "we practised our red zone offense all the time and hard". Again...Roman's red zone offense is a joke when comparing to our SB teams.

So to those of you singing Roman's praise i ain't buying what your selling.

Oh and ya Roman is highly coveted allright just like the 7 NFL HC's were who got fired yesterday once were as well.lol Roman would be an absolutely disaster as an NFL HC because he lacks skill at making game in progress adjustments.

When i watch Roman's offense over the last 2 years it is blatantly obvious our 3rd down conversion and red zone offense sucks. Harbaugh has been calling more plays. This is another sign Roman is failing. 49ers need to upgrade their OC Norv Turner is on the market.

I have actually watched those teams play. I have all 5 Super Bowls on tape. And you are right. There is just something wrong with this offense. It's ...."clunky" to me, compared with the smoothness and pure precision we are used to. The again, we have 3 OCs (Roman, Harbaugh, and our WR coach) when it comes to the passing game, so to me, that's why it looks ugly. WR coach puts the passing gameplan in during the week. Roman calls the plays, 80-90% of the time? With Harbaugh having veto power.

Too many hands in the cookie jar.

The only part I do not agree with you is your statement about Norv Turner. I agree he is a great OC, better on his worst day then Roman on his best. BUT he doesn't run the WCO. How do you see that meshing with Harbaugh?
Originally posted by GoldandGarnet:
I have actually watched those teams play. I have all 5 Super Bowls on tape. And you are right. There is just something wrong with this offense. It's ...."clunky" to me, compared with the smoothness and pure precision we are used to. The again, we have 3 OCs (Roman, Harbaugh, and our WR coach) when it comes to the passing game, so to me, that's why it looks ugly. WR coach puts the passing gameplan in during the week. Roman calls the plays, 80-90% of the time? With Harbaugh having veto power.

Too many hands in the cookie jar.


+1 That's a very good interpretation.
when is the jumbo package with 0 receivers on the field ever a good play on 1st and ten
Originally posted by Shorteous:
WOW, you sure do draw some conclusions on limited facts. That's just insane .

Lol new around here?
Originally posted by GoldandGarnet:
I have actually watched those teams play. I have all 5 Super Bowls on tape. And you are right. There is just something wrong with this offense. It's ...."clunky" to me, compared with the smoothness and pure precision we are used to. The again, we have 3 OCs (Roman, Harbaugh, and our WR coach) when it comes to the passing game, so to me, that's why it looks ugly. WR coach puts the passing gameplan in during the week. Roman calls the plays, 80-90% of the time? With Harbaugh having veto power.

Too many hands in the cookie jar.

The only part I do not agree with you is your statement about Norv Turner. I agree he is a great OC, better on his worst day then Roman on his best. BUT he doesn't run the WCO. How do you see that meshing with Harbaugh?

If Harbaugh wants 1 of the best OC's in the business in Norv Turner they will work it out together what offense they will run i really don't see it being a problem.

Bringing Roman back for more of the same well there's a problem i don't want to revisit.
Originally posted by natrone06:
Originally posted by Shorteous:
WOW, you sure do draw some conclusions on limited facts. That's just insane .

Lol new around here?

No I have been viewing this site since the times of mooch. But I find myself incapable of ignoring grossly illogical methods. The poster literally claimed that he thinks Harbaugh took over play calling after the Rams debacle took effect. Just pulled that straight out of his online purchased BS Journalism... Funny thing is this guy probably doesn't even realize, at least from my perspective, that you cannot just make a statement like that and then expect anything you ever say to have any credibility. I'm sure he will boast in bravado and say my opinion doesn't mean jack to him and the thing is I can't even believe that. Anything he'll ever say has absolutely no credibility to me.
Originally posted by SkyGod:
Originally posted by GoldandGarnet:
I have actually watched those teams play. I have all 5 Super Bowls on tape. And you are right. There is just something wrong with this offense. It's ...."clunky" to me, compared with the smoothness and pure precision we are used to. The again, we have 3 OCs (Roman, Harbaugh, and our WR coach) when it comes to the passing game, so to me, that's why it looks ugly. WR coach puts the passing gameplan in during the week. Roman calls the plays, 80-90% of the time? With Harbaugh having veto power.

Too many hands in the cookie jar.

The only part I do not agree with you is your statement about Norv Turner. I agree he is a great OC, better on his worst day then Roman on his best. BUT he doesn't run the WCO. How do you see that meshing with Harbaugh?

If Harbaugh wants 1 of the best OC's in the business in Norv Turner they will work it out together what offense they will run i really don't see it being a problem.

Bringing Roman back for more of the same well there's a problem i don't want to revisit.

Norv Turner will not be the OC for the Niners if Roman leaves. You don't bring in a great French teacher to teach the next semester of Japanese, unless he is fluent and great at Japanese.

Turner doesn't no jack about Japanese.