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Why do you guys think our offense looked lame?

Originally posted by Kronos2560:
Personally. I think it's a matter of two things. Mainly regarding our Pistol formation, which we used a lot against the Dolphins.

1. Our pistol offense is a new-ish package that we ran a lot in the game against the Fins for some reason. I dont know why we used to so much, but I think we would have looked sharper with offensive packages that this team has mastered.

2. Why were we throwing so much out of this pistol package? It's weird to try and throw so much out of a 3 RB set.


interesting debate on the nfl show on showtime with collinsworth, simms and donovan mcnabb--they were talking about whether these new read options schemes being run by rgIII, kapernick and newton will be long lasting or whether defenses will catch up...simms and mcnabb thought that defenses will adjust and start neutralizing the read option better, while collinsworth said he thought it was here to stay...mcnabb and simms likened this new read option to the wildcat offenses, which came in with a flourish and now no one hardly runs anymore
  • ace52
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If our O-line can improve their pass protection to just average level compared to the rest of the NFL, it will give our OC more confidence to call deeper passing plays, and all of a sudden our offense will look much more exciting
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!


Evolving into what? A college style O that will fail in the long run. These gimmick O's do well for a year tops and the D's figure them out and its lights out. Name one team who went to this kind of crap that is successful?

I'll take the pro-style O any day of the week.

Plus, Kap is not gonna last very long if we keep running him with so many fast and strong D players in the NFL.

And as exciting and imaginative as you'd like to think this O is we are not averaging any more points (on O) than before.
Originally posted by hofer36:
interesting debate on the nfl show on showtime with collinsworth, simms and donovan mcnabb--they were talking about whether these new read options schemes being run by rgIII, kapernick and newton will be long lasting or whether defenses will catch up...simms and mcnabb thought that defenses will adjust and start neutralizing the read option better, while collinsworth said he thought it was here to stay...mcnabb and simms likened this new read option to the wildcat offenses, which came in with a flourish and now no one hardly runs anymore

The defenses will most likely solve the spread as it did with the wildcat. More of a concern with the scheme is putting these top QBs in harms way. If one or two go down teams will stop running it. Having a QB out in space is an open invitation for the defense. That being said only young signal callers have the health and speed to run the scheme.
Not sure if lame is the right adjective but our output does not match our offensive talent that's for sure. Vernon Davis has disappeared. Manningham has 1 td all season. Moss has 2 yet somehow were ranked 12th in overall offense. It seems were always content with trying to run the ball and sustain 15 play drives but somewhere along the lines we always get a penalty, take a sack or make a mistake. It's hard to win without explosive plays here and there and thats what we lack and we'll need in order to make a run at the super bowl. It's a wasted opportunity with this defense to not take risks and think the ball is always going to bounce just right and squeak out close games. I say unleash Kap completely. If we lose so what were gonna lose anyway playing conservative against better teams. it's the reason you gave him the job .. I do not believe that Luck or RGIII are playing with as much talent as the 49ers but their teams put up loads of points ..cant be scared to make mistakes...especially with our defense we should be taking alot more chances to produce big big plays ... yet we dont . and the outcome is leaving inferior teams around to sneak wins ala the Rams ..I believe we can still improve this season on offense!! We have no choice
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!


Evolving into what? A college style O that will fail in the long run. These gimmick O's do well for a year tops and the D's figure them out and its lights out. Name one team who went to this kind of crap that is successful?

I'll take the pro-style O any day of the week.

Plus, Kap is not gonna last very long if we keep running him with so many fast and strong D players in the NFL.

And as exciting and imaginative as you'd like to think this O is we are not averaging any more points (on O) than before.

Did you know once upon a time spread offenses was also college thing? People said the same thing and that they thought it was a gimmick to have such WR sets. But now it's a staple in the NFL, executed with surgical precision by elite QB's!

Don't worry about Kaep lasting long. Steve Young took plenty of hits being a mobile QB but still had a long career.


Just give it time. The game always evolves one way or another, and these new age QB's are proving it.
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!


Evolving into what? A college style O that will fail in the long run. These gimmick O's do well for a year tops and the D's figure them out and its lights out. Name one team who went to this kind of crap that is successful?

I'll take the pro-style O any day of the week.

Plus, Kap is not gonna last very long if we keep running him with so many fast and strong D players in the NFL.

And as exciting and imaginative as you'd like to think this O is we are not averaging any more points (on O) than before.

Did you know once upon a time spread offenses was also college thing? People said the same thing and that they thought it was a gimmick to have such WR sets. But now it's a staple in the NFL, executed with surgical precision by elite QB's!

Don't worry about Kaep lasting long. Steve Young took plenty of hits being a mobile QB but still had a long career.


Just give it time. The game always evolves one way or another, and these new age QB's are proving it.

Hey Verb...sorry, just saw this.

What do think? I think if Bellicheck is a cheater, he's probably also a liar. LOL. Kidding...

I really like your point about patience here with the evolution of OUR offense and how sometimes the mutant becomes the norm over time. That said, I do share many of the concerns others have noted about our offense:
  • QB - putting your QB at physical risk (CK's already taken some big hits and almost all but one were outside the pocket - like how Alex was originally hurt). It only takes one hit and you think the NFL would learn a bit from Michael Vick. It doesn't work esp. for a sustained amount of time.
  • Progression - Aside from 2 big runs, has it really been that productive? Enough to continue to do it?
  • Penalties - we all saw back in the day when we had a QB-on-the-move in Garcia and the holding penalties that racked up b/c of his "happy feet." Young is a good example early in his career but he became a HOF QB after he learned to stay in the pocket and utilize all his weapons.
  • Ad lib - let's face it. We SUCK at ad libbing. With our one-receiver option passing play designs the OL appears to block for 2 or 3 seconds (tops) and then let's their men go (anyone else notice this). The targeted receiver seems to bust his butt to get open and the other receivers play decoy and/or start blocking for him. But when that college play breaks down, nobody has a clue what to do
  • James/Hunter/Gore - it's pretty well known that Gore does not have lateral speed to make big runs off tackle and this is why Hunter was so special. His presence alone forced the defense to defend between and outside their DE's. When Hunter was out and we didn't use James, Gore was pounded into submission (arm hanging off him). When we brought James in, we ran off tackle and suddenly, Gore was back to himself. So do we REALLY need our QB optioning for runs off tackle if we have a guy like Hunter/James?
  • Gimmicks - defenses, esp. 4-3 active defenses are fully equipped to stuff CK and this offense like we've seen with the Rams x2 and others. Having 4 DL (if good/smart) can contain those edges (like Brooks/Aldon do for us now - essentially 5 DL).
  • Delayed - upon further review, all of these college plays seems to be retarding CK's growth as an in-the-pocket-QB and delaying the chance of a successful play d/t all the delay-of-game penalties; there's no time to get players set, there is confusion, no real time to read the defenses, guys coming unblocked, etc.
  • Overall - it's about production and whether it's CK or AS, the results are the exact same at the end of the day; just minor differences for how those results come to fruition. And let's be honest - we aren't producing much even compared to some somewhat-like offenses like ours in (Washington and Carolina).
  • Innovative - hey, I'm as progressive as the next guy as long as we see an upward trend (not flatline or regression like we're seeing here). I do think Roman is innovative in the run game b/c he truly targets a DL's weaknesses and exploits them (wham blocks, runs off tackle, misdirections, pulling G's, etc.) and this is a true WCO principle. But that's about it. It's an Anti-WCO in every other facet from philosophy to the passing game, to the RZ to utilization of all of our weapons. Your point about a spread offense worked b/c the NFL changed how the defense could defend receivers and hence, the explosion of great pass blocking OL, the shot gun and spreading the defense out. The NFL knew this is more entertaining. Us? Well, b/c of this trend, nobody spends $ on the DL or builds a dominant DL anymore so we run down team's throats. We forced s 3-4 defense to play 4-3 to try and stop us. The ones who can are few but typically are the 4-3's with really good/smart DE's and quick, active DT's with goo depth. If they can stop our run and out-muscle our receivers, we're done...we've seen that with the Rams x2, Seattle, Giants x2, Vikings, etc.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Hey Verb...sorry, just saw this.

What do think? I think if Bellicheck is a cheater, he's probably also a liar. LOL. Kidding...

I really like your point about patience here with the evolution of OUR offense and how sometimes the mutant becomes the norm over time. That said, I do share many of the concerns others have noted about our offense:
  • QB - putting your QB at physical risk (CK's already taken some big hits and almost all but one were outside the pocket - like how Alex was originally hurt). It only takes one hit and you think the NFL would learn a bit from Michael Vick. It doesn't work esp. for a sustained amount of time.
  • Progression - Aside from 2 big runs, has it really been that productive? Enough to continue to do it?
  • Penalties - we all saw back in the day when we had a QB-on-the-move in Garcia and the holding penalties that racked up b/c of his "happy feet." Young is a good example early in his career but he became a HOF QB after he learned to stay in the pocket and utilize all his weapons.
  • Ad lib - let's face it. We SUCK at ad libbing. With our one-receiver option passing play designs the OL appears to block for 2 or 3 seconds (tops) and then let's their men go (anyone else notice this). The targeted receiver seems to bust his butt to get open and the other receivers play decoy and/or start blocking for him. But when that college play breaks down, nobody has a clue what to do
  • James/Hunter/Gore - it's pretty well known that Gore does not have lateral speed to make big runs off tackle and this is why Hunter was so special. His presence alone forced the defense to defend between and outside their DE's. When Hunter was out and we didn't use James, Gore was pounded into submission (arm hanging off him). When we brought James in, we ran off tackle and suddenly, Gore was back to himself. So do we REALLY need our QB optioning for runs off tackle if we have a guy like Hunter/James?
  • Gimmicks - defenses, esp. 4-3 active defenses are fully equipped to stuff CK and this offense like we've seen with the Rams x2 and others. Having 4 DL (if good/smart) can contain those edges (like Brooks/Aldon do for us now - essentially 5 DL).
  • Delayed - upon further review, all of these college plays seems to be retarding CK's growth as an in-the-pocket-QB and delaying the chance of a successful play d/t all the delay-of-game penalties; there's no time to get players set, there is confusion, no real time to read the defenses, guys coming unblocked, etc.
  • Overall - it's about production and whether it's CK or AS, the results are the exact same at the end of the day; just minor differences for how those results come to fruition. And let's be honest - we aren't producing much even compared to some somewhat-like offenses like ours in (Washington and Carolina).
  • Innovative - hey, I'm as progressive as the next guy as long as we see an upward trend (not flatline or regression like we're seeing here). I do think Roman is innovative in the run game b/c he truly targets a DL's weaknesses and exploits them (wham blocks, runs off tackle, misdirections, pulling G's, etc.) and this is a true WCO principle. But that's about it. It's an Anti-WCO in every other facet from philosophy to the passing game, to the RZ to utilization of all of our weapons. Your point about a spread offense worked b/c the NFL changed how the defense could defend receivers and hence, the explosion of great pass blocking OL, the shot gun and spreading the defense out. The NFL knew this is more entertaining. Us? Well, b/c of this trend, nobody spends $ on the DL or builds a dominant DL anymore so we run down team's throats. We forced s 3-4 defense to play 4-3 to try and stop us. The ones who can are few but typically are the 4-3's with really good/smart DE's and quick, active DT's with goo depth. If they can stop our run and out-muscle our receivers, we're done...we've seen that with the Rams x2, Seattle, Giants x2, Vikings, etc.

This is how you breakdown something and not just pray/hope that you think it's going to get better, just because you like the QB change. Great breakdown NC!
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!


Evolving into what? A college style O that will fail in the long run. These gimmick O's do well for a year tops and the D's figure them out and its lights out. Name one team who went to this kind of crap that is successful?

I'll take the pro-style O any day of the week.

Plus, Kap is not gonna last very long if we keep running him with so many fast and strong D players in the NFL.

And as exciting and imaginative as you'd like to think this O is we are not averaging any more points (on O) than before.

Did you know once upon a time spread offenses was also college thing? People said the same thing and that they thought it was a gimmick to have such WR sets. But now it's a staple in the NFL, executed with surgical precision by elite QB's!

Don't worry about Kaep lasting long. Steve Young took plenty of hits being a mobile QB but still had a long career.


Just give it time. The game always evolves one way or another, and these new age QB's are proving it.
Agree with rk1642
There's no time for that this late in the season.The Niners should've been in the SB last yr and they certainly will not get there this yr
"evolving".
It's clearly obvious since Kaep's breakout game against Chicago the Offense has been slowing down,mainly in the passing game(fewer passing yds per game avg,fewer 20yd+ passes,0 td's in the last 2 gms).It's funny the Alex haters who've often referred to him as "capt checkdown" make no mention Colin has been mr.checkdown himself lately,we'll blame it on Roman lol.
Love him or like him Colin will need to make adjustments soon otherwise it will be an early exit in the playoffs.
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
This is how you breakdown something and not just pray/hope that you think it's going to get better, just because you like the QB change. Great breakdown NC!

It's just MHO. Appreciate it.
i think they were looking passed them to the patriots. our team seems to be doing that a lot this year. i guarantee that they will come to play against the pats and look great
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by rk1642:
Originally posted by verb1der:
NC, give me your thoughts about this qoute from Bellicheck.

Quote: With Kaepernick, the Niners are running with a full-house backfield, pressuring defenses to defend multiple potential ballcarriers in addition to receivers.

"They attack you everywhere; everybody has to do a good job (defensively)," said Belichick. "They can run inside, they can run outside, they can keep it, they play-action off it. Really, everybody has to be at the point of attack. No one player can stop it, no one guy can. Eleven guys have to play good team defense. I'm sure that's why they're doing it – is to try to put stress on every player on the defense and they do."

http://www.csnne.com/football-new-england-patriots/patriots-talk/Belichick-considers-Kaepernicks-impact?blockID=813067&feedID=3352

If you ask me, I think this QB drama has completely overshadowed the fact that the 49ers offense has evolved right before our eyes. It's innovating, in similar ways Kyle Shannahan is doing with RG3. It's just not as fluid because they're installing at mid-season, but it's going to get better!

The offense might seem boring to the average viewer but there is a method to the madness!


Evolving into what? A college style O that will fail in the long run. These gimmick O's do well for a year tops and the D's figure them out and its lights out. Name one team who went to this kind of crap that is successful?

I'll take the pro-style O any day of the week.

Plus, Kap is not gonna last very long if we keep running him with so many fast and strong D players in the NFL.

And as exciting and imaginative as you'd like to think this O is we are not averaging any more points (on O) than before.

Did you know once upon a time spread offenses was also college thing? People said the same thing and that they thought it was a gimmick to have such WR sets. But now it's a staple in the NFL, executed with surgical precision by elite QB's!

Don't worry about Kaep lasting long. Steve Young took plenty of hits being a mobile QB but still had a long career.


Just give it time. The game always evolves one way or another, and these new age QB's are proving it.

Hey Verb...sorry, just saw this.

What do think? I think if Bellicheck is a cheater, he's probably also a liar. LOL. Kidding...

I really like your point about patience here with the evolution of OUR offense and how sometimes the mutant becomes the norm over time. That said, I do share many of the concerns others have noted about our offense:
  • QB - putting your QB at physical risk (CK's already taken some big hits and almost all but one were outside the pocket - like how Alex was originally hurt). It only takes one hit and you think the NFL would learn a bit from Michael Vick. It doesn't work esp. for a sustained amount of time.
  • Progression - Aside from 2 big runs, has it really been that productive? Enough to continue to do it?
  • Penalties - we all saw back in the day when we had a QB-on-the-move in Garcia and the holding penalties that racked up b/c of his "happy feet." Young is a good example early in his career but he became a HOF QB after he learned to stay in the pocket and utilize all his weapons.
  • Ad lib - let's face it. We SUCK at ad libbing. With our one-receiver option passing play designs the OL appears to block for 2 or 3 seconds (tops) and then let's their men go (anyone else notice this). The targeted receiver seems to bust his butt to get open and the other receivers play decoy and/or start blocking for him. But when that college play breaks down, nobody has a clue what to do
  • James/Hunter/Gore - it's pretty well known that Gore does not have lateral speed to make big runs off tackle and this is why Hunter was so special. His presence alone forced the defense to defend between and outside their DE's. When Hunter was out and we didn't use James, Gore was pounded into submission (arm hanging off him). When we brought James in, we ran off tackle and suddenly, Gore was back to himself. So do we REALLY need our QB optioning for runs off tackle if we have a guy like Hunter/James?
  • Gimmicks - defenses, esp. 4-3 active defenses are fully equipped to stuff CK and this offense like we've seen with the Rams x2 and others. Having 4 DL (if good/smart) can contain those edges (like Brooks/Aldon do for us now - essentially 5 DL).
  • Delayed - upon further review, all of these college plays seems to be retarding CK's growth as an in-the-pocket-QB and delaying the chance of a successful play d/t all the delay-of-game penalties; there's no time to get players set, there is confusion, no real time to read the defenses, guys coming unblocked, etc.
  • Overall - it's about production and whether it's CK or AS, the results are the exact same at the end of the day; just minor differences for how those results come to fruition. And let's be honest - we aren't producing much even compared to some somewhat-like offenses like ours in (Washington and Carolina).
  • Innovative - hey, I'm as progressive as the next guy as long as we see an upward trend (not flatline or regression like we're seeing here). I do think Roman is innovative in the run game b/c he truly targets a DL's weaknesses and exploits them (wham blocks, runs off tackle, misdirections, pulling G's, etc.) and this is a true WCO principle. But that's about it. It's an Anti-WCO in every other facet from philosophy to the passing game, to the RZ to utilization of all of our weapons. Your point about a spread offense worked b/c the NFL changed how the defense could defend receivers and hence, the explosion of great pass blocking OL, the shot gun and spreading the defense out. The NFL knew this is more entertaining. Us? Well, b/c of this trend, nobody spends $ on the DL or builds a dominant DL anymore so we run down team's throats. We forced s 3-4 defense to play 4-3 to try and stop us. The ones who can are few but typically are the 4-3's with really good/smart DE's and quick, active DT's with goo depth. If they can stop our run and out-muscle our receivers, we're done...we've seen that with the Rams x2, Seattle, Giants x2, Vikings, etc.

it sounds as if youre making good arguments that this type of offensive schemeshould not be implemented in midseason but during the offseason
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Delay of game
Penalties
Pass blocking
QB holding the ball too long in the pocket

agree with all of that.. i think you have to put playcalling by jim or roman or whoever in there to

If our play calling doesn't change, we will continue to be above average
Originally posted by verb1der:
That's some good points NC! And that's why I wanted to hear your input, you've always been solid with analysis.

However I still think our offense is going to further evolve with Kaep. I find it amazing that he's 3-1 considering he's in the middle of an "installation phase". I'm sure this was a back-up plan by Harbaugh and it's going according to plan. And what Bellicheck said makes sense, that when you face the 49ers offense with Kaep at the helm, you really don't know what it's going to be, a pass? a run? an read option? a play action? a flea flicker for a bomb?...Kaep is like a swiss army knife of a QB and opposing defenses has to really be prepared for anything. We didn't have that versatility with Alex.

Furthermore, I do think this dynamic will give us an advantage in getting over the hump and finally appearing in a Superbowl. You guys all seen what the Redskins and RG3 did to the Giants a couple weeks ago right?!

It's a new age offense and folks need to have a little patience in it like they had with Alex! There's some bumps for sure, but ultimately Kaep is 3-1, so something's gotta be working.

is it wise to be implementing an installation phase in the middle of a season with a team that went to the NFCCG the year before?