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Essential need to redo the O call line of non-communication.

OntheInside, i was unaware of that miserable stat, thinking we were more middle of the pack. So, when you can't pass protect, you run. But then the D stacks the box, and a box 8 quickly becomes a box 9 or 10. We saw that last yr. Therefore, with our guys not doing good pass blocking , we should screen, or whatever. But the real answer to a running team OL that can't block is to throw nothing but 1 steppers , again and again until the D backs off the LOS. Long rainbow passes look beautiful, but not when the Qb gets clobbered usually over an Incomplete pass.

Answer to this problem which we have now had , ummmm, oh say for the last 12 yrs is to get it snapped and get it gone. I mentioned this time and again when alex was going thru his trials and tribulations, only to see 5, 7 and worse, even 9 step dropbacks, most resulting in sacks. This is not a difficult problem. Making the HC/OC change the game plan to dinks and dunks as a routine is. Nobody who has coached here since Walsh was happy to throw 5 and 8 yrd passes all down the field. Sure, occasional go long, but basically, with a poor OL passblocking, the ball needs to be gone in under 1-2 seconds. That is not rocket science, and our poor OL pass blocking can be made to look a lot better with that kind of O calls
  • ace52
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Wow, I knew that our pass protection has been bad, but didn't know that we were dead last in the NFL.
No wonder our deep passing game has not worked, even though we have a QB with a cannon for an arm and good accuracy on the deep throws.
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Originally posted by TinyHandsBigHeart:
Originally posted by IdahoNiner:
Maybe he is under the assumption that all Qb's can run/should run an Offense as efficiently when they play call comes a bit late, like AS could? Or maybe he is just running his mouth, I like harbaugh, but it ouldnt be the first time? If you recall, there were quite a few of these situations when AS was under center. AS was just more efficient at attempting to get the ball and line adjustents made on time, and beter at calling the TO on time if necissary. But there were still alot of wasted TO's.

Im not saying Kaep doesnt share some of the blame, im just simply saying that Harbaugh/roman share the blame as well. Like i said i think its a combination of both.

I don't disagree. It most likely is a combination of things. It just struck me as odd that Harbaugh would attribute it to Kap in his press conference. He usually doesn't denigrate his players in the press.

Hes also not great at taking responsibility for his short comings. For all his good qualitys he isaint perfect. Last season, and early this season, he rarely had to answer questions about the coaching staff. Most of the blame and questions were about AS, because lets face it, AS has been the scapegoat for the shortcomings of this team since he was drafted. Harbaugh didnt have to answer tough questions, all he had to do was protect AS with the media. That is much easier to do then to admit ones own shortcomings when the blame begins to shift a bit because AS can no longer be the medias b***h or blamed for the shortcomings of the offense.

Well said Idaho.

Kind of what I said but in a different way.
[ Edited by paperplanemedia on Dec 13, 2012 at 12:09 PM ]
So now we have the worst oline and can't get a play called in time so its all everybody elses fault.

I like Kap but most of these DOG penalties clearly fall on him. He takes to long to figure out what the D is doing.

Oh well, this is how its gonna be forever now, always an excuse for Kap to justify him over Alex. Nothing can be his fault. He is perfect and everybody else is screwing up. The oline has gotten worse than when Alex was in? Really??
Originally posted by OntheInside:
REDO the OLine is more like it. FACT IS the 49ers are ranked 32nd out of 32 teams in pass protection. That's right, dead last. No team will get past the big boys with that stat. in today's league.

Given that fact I would say both Smith and Kaep have played extremely well. Legends will even falter under piss poor pass protection.
  • ace52
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Originally posted by USArmyParatrooper:
Given that fact I would say both Smith and Kaep have played extremely well. Legends will even falter under piss poor pass protection.

Agreed. Pass protection has always been a problem with the 9ers, and both AS and CK did pretty well considering the time they were given in general to complete their passes. I always think that even the "elite" QBs like Brady, Rodgers, etc. would not have looked nearly as good if they had been playing under similar circumstances.

However, given the fact that our team now has the potential to attack every part of the field well with a QB who has shown that he can throw deep pretty accurately, the thing that is holding us back from being able to attempt more long throws is the fact that the line can't hold up long enough for these plays to develop.
I reiterate. If you can't pass block, you snap it and sling it. What in the world is so difficult about that? Oh, I get it. The HC wants his team to be able to throw those nice 50 yd rainbow passes, even tho anything more than a 1 stepper is going to get the QB mauled. So there you have it. Coach WANTS the long pass, and isn't willing to play dink and dunk, like, well, montana, brady, eli...and a few notable others. IF THE OL CAN'T PASS BLOCK, and the D is in a box 8, how exactly smart does the HC have to be to throw 1 step slants and outs all game UNTIL....the D backs off the LOS. Once they do that and rush 4, or 3, watch our pass protection numbers go up. Problem is the solution is so simple, Coach Harbaw doesn't want to do it. Hey, if Kap gets nailed on a 7 stepper, well, he shoulda thrown a one stepper. That answers the OL pass protection problem...but it doesn't answer the inexcusably stupid and worse, pathetic looking fumble fingers, once roman and Harb debate the next play, then discuss it some more, Harb calls it in, Kap has 8 seconds, then he sees D set is wrong, and changes the play. DING DING DING. T.O. Called by coach Harbaw.

Unfortunately he can only call 3 T.O.s per half, or he would call , oh, about 10 per qtr. Yup, that would be every O play. So how can a guy , supposedly as smart as Harbaw, routinely uckfay up getting the damn play in on time. And oh, Coach, getting the play in with 8 seconds on the clock is NOT GETTING IT IN ON TIME , particularly with the rook you decided to start with only 4 games left in the season. This is not a puzzle as who is to blame. This is our COY, jim Harbaugh, not getting his schidt together with getting plays called and in way before time. Coach, my man, you have dutifully uckfayed us with this avoidable, stupid , goofy, half azz job you are doing with roman. Really, how tough is it to cut roman out of the play calling? Or just let roman call plays, which will cause us to lose, and then Harbaw has no choice...he has to call the plays. He did it at stanford, he can do it here.

Alternatively, if he doesn't like that , go to 2 min O the entire game....ie, mimic what brady will be doing and let's see how your acolyte, Kap, does. If he can't cut it, suck up your guts, and put alex back in.
The point spread is 5.5 pts. With playcalling delays like the last 3 games, and the Fins game especially, that spread should be 18.5 pts....unless fangio plays dime and nickle packs and rushes only 4...or worse 3. In that case, take us and the points at 28.5, because with our completely failed method of O play calling, plus a 3 or 4 man rush, we get embarrassed by Pats, we will lose by 30...and that is going away. Say an even 35 pts and then lay it on failed O call chain failure and a cs D with no pressure on brady. I hope I am wrong, but i don't think so

If Coach can't get the plays in with 12-15 sec on the clock and /or fangio opens up with no rush, nickle and dime packs, I am turning off the tv and reading about our embarrassment in the news next day. This is all avoidable, and one person can fix it. HIs name? COY Harbaugh
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Hey, Harbaugh is the best thing to happen to us in 12 , maybe 15 yrs. He is phenomenal. But he carries a heavy load on his shoulders with a new Qb starting in the last 1/4 of the season, and he has contributed to a fuster cluck with the playcalling chain of command, and delivery thereof. Here are facts:

If roman, harbaugh can't get their play into Kap way earlier than they currently do, this coming Sun nite, Coach H and Kap are going to look like a guy who has to take a leak, but just can't get it out of his pants. I hate to say it that way, but as much as I could stand rewatching the dolphins game, if we play like that against the Pats, they are going to kick our azz around the block and not bother to take names. That game looked so bad against the Fins, that it was embarrassing to watch at times.
Now, maybe roman, then harbaw, have trouble getting the play call in on time. Ok, that's a problem. But with a rook , who is having trouble reading D's quickly, and then seeing if his playcall fits the D, (esp if the D jumps around), Kap CANNOT get the play changed and TO HIS TEAM MATES in time, we come off looking like a bunch of high school girls playing flag football. If Kap/harbaw/roman cannot get their schidt together by Sun, we are going to not just get beaten, we are going to get embarrassed....much like the Texans did, only worse.

There are several ways around this. First , just eliminate roman from calling plays. Then it is a conversation between Coach H and Kap. Kap is green ,a nd needs more time to read the D, and even more pressing , if he changes the play, he can't communicate it to his teammates. Hence another way around this is for Kap to just run the 2 minute O all game long. Let him call his own plays. But this business of Harbaw throwing a bad red flag, and then burning what 3, 4 or was it 5 T.Os. to keep the clock from running out....well....we can't do that in PATS Land and have any hope of winning. So something has to be streamlined, or something has to go. My vote goes for roman....cut off his mike and let him watch the game. Our HC is every bit as good an OC as roman, and i think better.

With Kap, another avenue might be to not let him change any plays...other than a nod at vernon, crbs, delanie, moss, Lamic... that they need to run a quick slant or out if the PATS stack the line with a box 8. Just make it simple for Kap like that. Coach has proven that the current commmunication line of O calls is broken and doesn't work. There are other ideas to fix it, but my choices are as above. Yours?

This is so true!

PLEASE, paperplanemedia - get real! Pasdoc9er - VERY good post! Totally agree. The faster we can get that play in and moving, the better off we'll be. Last Sunday the Pats looked like the best team in football. They spanked, embarrassed and took the whole Houston team to the woodshed. We have to get it together quickly, the playoffs are right around the corner. In addition to faster play calling we MUST stop killing our own drives with penalties and dropped passes. This game is a HUGE test.
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Originally posted by ninerfan52:
This is so true!

PLEASE, paperplanemedia - get real! Pasdoc9er - VERY good post! Totally agree. The faster we can get that play in and moving, the better off we'll be. Last Sunday the Pats looked like the best team in football. They spanked, embarrassed and took the whole Houston team to the woodshed. We have to get it together quickly, the playoffs are right around the corner. In addition to faster play calling we MUST stop killing our own drives with penalties and dropped passes. This game is a HUGE test.
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What are you talking about? Idaho said the same thing I did, just in a different way. Is it that hard to believe that if Harbaugh believes he has the best guys in, they should be able to continue to run the offense better than it was running before? I think he's finding out that he was in over his head and has to simplify things because our current QB isn't as ready as he thought. Someone on the NFL network stated Harbaugh was running certain plays with Kaep against the Rams to try prove to everyone that he made the right move at QB. Is that real enough?
Paperplane, who knows, you very well may be right that Coach has to dumb down everything his well oiled O had been doing to accomodate kap. But in so doing, has he in fact , created a lesser, weaker O, by cutting out 3/4 of the playbook so Kap can make the reads and change plays if necessary? ON this I have no opinion, other than the overwhelming percentage of sports fans thot changing a winning Qb, Alex, out for a guy with more physical talents, with only 4 games to go in the season, was not very wise. I take no position on this because this is Coach H's team. But if you ask is this working out? I would say the worst thing that could have happened did happen. Kap is not ready for the entire playbook, and our O has suffered because of it. HIs spectacular 50 yd TD runs? Heck, put him in for the wild Kap, but having a rook start beginning at game 13 in the season is so far looking like a really , really bad idea.

If with kap's inexperience, and compounded by roman/harbaw not able to decide on what play to call, and calls going in late.....well, after Coach burns his first 3 T.O.s in the first 6 minutes of the first qtr, it is going to be a very long evening for Harbaw et al, all because Coach rolled the dice with the better athlete, but a guy not yet ready for the big time. My guess? We lose by more than the Texans did, 42-14, and the screwup of not getting plays called in on time is going to be the only thing talked about after and before the game. Man do i ever hope i am wrong, but the Fins game showed us how vulnerable our calling in plays is.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Paperplane, who knows, you very well may be right that Coach has to dumb down everything his well oiled O had been doing to accomodate kap. But in so doing, has he in fact , created a lesser, weaker O, by cutting out 3/4 of the playbook so Kap can make the reads and change plays if necessary? ON this I have no opinion, other than the overwhelming percentage of sports fans thot changing a winning Qb, Alex, out for a guy with more physical talents, with only 4 games to go in the season, was not very wise. I take no position on this because this is Coach H's team. But if you ask is this working out? I would say the worst thing that could have happened did happen. Kap is not ready for the entire playbook, and our O has suffered because of it. HIs spectacular 50 yd TD runs? Heck, put him in for the wild Kap, but having a rook start beginning at game 13 in the season is so far looking like a really , really bad idea.

If with kap's inexperience, and compounded by roman/harbaw not able to decide on what play to call, and calls going in late.....well, after Coach burns his first 3 T.O.s in the first 6 minutes of the first qtr, it is going to be a very long evening for Harbaw et al, all because Coach rolled the dice with the better athlete, but a guy not yet ready for the big time. My guess? We lose by more than the Texans did, 42-14, and the screwup of not getting plays called in on time is going to be the only thing talked about after and before the game. Man do i ever hope i am wrong, but the Fins game showed us how vulnerable our calling in plays is.


Originally posted by ace52:
Agreed. Pass protection has always been a problem with the 9ers, and both AS and CK did pretty well considering the time they were given in general to complete their passes. I always think that even the "elite" QBs like Brady, Rodgers, etc. would not have looked nearly as good if they had been playing under similar circumstances.

However, given the fact that our team now has the potential to attack every part of the field well with a QB who has shown that he can throw deep pretty accurately, the thing that is holding us back from being able to attempt more long throws is the fact that the line can't hold up long enough for these plays to develop.

Bingo! Many of these posts are polarizing on 1) Harbaugh/Roman having to dumb down the offense for CK and 2) not getting the plays off in a timely manner. While valid points are brought up, what does this have to do with our offensive line and their inability to pass block as a unit?

The fact that we are DFL in the league at pass blocking is more of a function of team blocking schemes (or lack thereof) rather than the QB that we are playing. So regardless of whether it's CK or Alex, our offensive line apparently can't block for anybody!!!!!!!!!!!! As noted by one of the posters, this has been a problem for many years now. How do we fix it?? Do we fire our offensive line coach this off season? Any suggestions?
Originally posted by paperplanemedia:
What are you talking about? Idaho said the same thing I did, just in a different way. Is it that hard to believe that if Harbaugh believes he has the best guys in, they should be able to continue to run the offense better than it was running before? I think he's finding out that he was in over his head and has to simplify things because our current QB isn't as ready as he thought. Someone on the NFL network stated Harbaugh was running certain plays with Kaep against the Rams to try prove to everyone that he made the right move at QB. Is that real enough?

Save your campaign for the Kaep v Smith thread, spunky.
pete98, the answer to better OL passblocking is easy. Coach just want to do it. Answer? Make every pass a 1 stepper, and rarely a 3 stepper. Moss, mannigham, AJ, crabs, vernon....all have to be looking for the ball the moment they fake and leave the LOS. They effectively would be catching a ball 2-3 yrds beyond LOS. You think it won't work? Check out game films from 1978 to 1990. Montana had a field day, exactly like brady is doing, marching down the field, one 1 stepper at a time. Yeah, occasionally throw a 3 stepper. That makes the OL go from last in league in Pass Protection to way up near the top. The problem? Coach H does NOT WANT to use that type of game plan. Why, I don't know, but every time we have used it, which is darn infrequent, it seems to be successful. I wonder if coach actually thinks that throwing dinks and dunks is girlie ball or something like that. Because if he watched tape of our Qb snapping it and slinging it, he would see the answer as to why our OL "can't pass block".