There are 113 users in the forums

Remember
Not a member? Register Now!

Joe, Steve and the HOF elephant in the room

Montana had some physical beatings that put him down here and there, otherwise he may have ended up winning even more than 4 Super Bowls. He is the best I have ever seen. Young was great too, the difference to me was the bigger the game the better Montana played, not always so with Young. But also Montana did have a better defense too with Charles Haley and Ronnie Lott, Michael carter, so many great players. I think Kaep could become the next great Niner QB and he has a great D also.
Massive difference between the Montana-Young saga and what is currently playing out before our eyes.

1. Joe Montana had won four trophies at this point in his career. He was God. Joe could do no wrong. The SF Chronicle held a nickname contest for Joe Montana, offering prizes for anyone who could come up with the best nickname. The winner? A nickname that sounds rather familiar: Joe Montana.

2. When the QB controversy was at full tilt was when it became clear that Joe had finally lost a step. He was still the greatest QB to have ever played the game, but he was no longer the class of the NFL. Years of pounding, plus major back surgery, finally caught up with him.

3. Young, at this point, had been sitting on the bench for years. Not less than two full seasons, but YEARS. One of the reasons that Walsh was forced out was his insistence to start phasing in Young and phasing out Montana. Eddie D. objected to the move. Walsh may have been the greatest coaching mind to ever grace an NFL stage, but Eddie owned the team. And Eddie was terribly loyal to his players. Almost to a fault. But fans like me could see that Young had a youth edge that Montana no longer had. And it was clear that Montana's best years were behind him.

Now -- compare that to day's little QB "dustup."

1. Alex Smith will never be mistaken for Joe Montana. He has no Super Bowl trophies on his resume. He has, at best, a love-hate relationship with the fan base. Personally? I thought he'd never be any good. Went out of my way to point this out on this forum year after year. Boy -- did Harbaugh ever shut me down and shut me up. He made Alex a winner.

2. Alex is in his prime right now. But how good can Alex be? Can Alex take us to a Super Bowl? Does he have the talent to get this team over the hump? These are questions unanswered.

3. There are more questions surrounding CK7 than answers. 49er fans knew what they had in Steve Young. I still don't know what we have in CK7. He could be the next great QB in waiting. Then again, he might not. Trouble is, we just don't know. CK7 is still, essentially, a kid. He's got less than two seasons of experience. Is that enough? Can anyone answer that question? I would say the one thing riding in his favor is his name isn't Alex Smith.

Those are the major differences that I see between then and now. There are more. But no two situations are alike, and that is certainly true with this situation. This might be a "QB Controversy." But it's not your daddy's QB Controversy.
winning cures everything.
Originally posted by billbird2111:
Massive difference between the Montana-Young saga and what is currently playing out before our eyes.

1. Joe Montana had won four trophies at this point in his career. He was God. Joe could do no wrong. The SF Chronicle held a nickname contest for Joe Montana, offering prizes for anyone who could come up with the best nickname. The winner? A nickname that sounds rather familiar: Joe Montana.

2. When the QB controversy was at full tilt was when it became clear that Joe had finally lost a step. He was still the greatest QB to have ever played the game, but he was no longer the class of the NFL. Years of pounding, plus major back surgery, finally caught up with him.

3. Young, at this point, had been sitting on the bench for years. Not less than two full seasons, but YEARS. One of the reasons that Walsh was forced out was his insistence to start phasing in Young and phasing out Montana. Eddie D. objected to the move. Walsh may have been the greatest coaching mind to ever grace an NFL stage, but Eddie owned the team. And Eddie was terribly loyal to his players. Almost to a fault. But fans like me could see that Young had a youth edge that Montana no longer had. And it was clear that Montana's best years were behind him.

Now -- compare that to day's little QB "dustup."

1. Alex Smith will never be mistaken for Joe Montana. He has no Super Bowl trophies on his resume. He has, at best, a love-hate relationship with the fan base. Personally? I thought he'd never be any good. Went out of my way to point this out on this forum year after year. Boy -- did Harbaugh ever shut me down and shut me up. He made Alex a winner.

2. Alex is in his prime right now. But how good can Alex be? Can Alex take us to a Super Bowl? Does he have the talent to get this team over the hump? These are questions unanswered.

3. There are more questions surrounding CK7 than answers. 49er fans knew what they had in Steve Young. I still don't know what we have in CK7. He could be the next great QB in waiting. Then again, he might not. Trouble is, we just don't know. CK7 is still, essentially, a kid. He's got less than two seasons of experience. Is that enough? Can anyone answer that question? I would say the one thing riding in his favor is his name isn't Alex Smith.

Those are the major differences that I see between then and now. There are more. But no two situations are alike, and that is certainly true with this situation. This might be a "QB Controversy." But it's not your daddy's QB Controversy.

lol @ "Not your daddy's QB controversy."

Agreed. Of course these are way different. but the one thing that makes me look back at it through the lens of our current situation is that when you boil it down, don't have hindsight, you're in the middle of a winning season and you're a SB contender. The trophies, MVP awards, and figuring out your future are all tossed aside. You're left with, "Who gives us the best chance to win the SB?" AND, you've got to take more into account than just stats/abilities/on field persona. You've got the effects It'll have on the rest of the team, the effects It'll have on the QB you decide on, while the other watches from the bench!

Starting in '88 the whole thing really ticked Joe off...

Joe's considered one of the greatest QBs, if not THE greatest QB ever!

I honestly just realized this and looked it up, never heard it before: Joe's first Superbowl and last Super Bowl's win are further apart than any other multi-win SB QB.

Totally speculation, but I wonder if what kept Joe on top for so long was the fact that he had something to prove - fight for - that wouldn't have motivated him the same without it? Who knows, maybe that controversy helped get us 5 SBs, and without we'd only got 3-4.

I've heard from both sides.. "Stuck with Joe(/Steve), we'd probably won one or two more." Maybe without the controversy we'd have one or two less.... ?
Difference is Walsh wanted that controversy. He believed in competition to improve players. Now adage with the salary cap and the me first attitude of many NFL stars/potential stars you wont have two HOF QBs on the same team for more then a year or two.

This QB issue we have is nothing compared to the past. And its really more overland then anything.
Originally posted by GhostofFredDean74:
Very different situation. Joe had already won 2 titles before Steve ever got there and had already earned the status of legend, much less, the undisputed starter. So the loyalty factor for Joe was based on championships, SB MVPs, Pro Bowls, All-Pro honors, etc. To the Joe fans, Steve was never going to be accepted until he proved he could do the same or better...talk about a high bar!

Seems to me the Smith/Kap controversy is more about personal investments. The Alex supporters have invested a lot of energy and many years defending his play and are now starting to see their loyalty pay off with Alex's solid play over the last year and a half. Same with the Alex haters...they're using Kap's recent accomplishments to bash Smith, when the truth is, both QBs can win with the formula Harbaugh has crafted (killer defense, physical run game, smart QB play).

this, exactly.

we also had no internet at the time. there was no twitter, no forums, no nothing...other than the local fish wraps and an occasional mention on Sports Center. there was no instant info on stats and no Fantasy Football thought process to fuel arguments.
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by DaDivaRecieva15:
Focused or concussed ?

CORNDOGS
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by DaDivaRecieva15:
Focused or concussed ?

Concussed and focused.
haha that's a funny pic comparison, you got montana & young on one end and smith & kaepernick on the other.

anyways, do you guys think this steve young retirement football is a good deal for $20? https://www.outbid.com/auctions/6084-outbid-sports-man-cave-fan-cave#1
Why does EVERY single athlete have to have a Dr. Dre Beats headphone?!
I think a lot of fans, myself included were torn. In Joe you had our hero, savior and identity as fans of the team. In Steve you had sooo much potential, athleticism and excitement. We were used to winning and Joe was getting older and and we had gotten glimpses of what Steve could do. Steve could thrill you and give you a friggin heart attack with his play at the same time! I think most Steve Young fans will say that Joe was the better player but Steve was the better future. We had TWO great QB's at that time, that's the difference. Now we aren't sure what we have if we are honest with ourselves.
When Joe was out for that long period of time .....it was hard to imagine sending steve back to the bench, even hardcore joe fans couldnt picture sending steve, who was regarded as the best QB in the game at that time, back to the bench .....and the MNF game when Joe came back, made things even more difficult when it was obvious Joe could still play some football
I loved Joe...I started going to games and actually understanding what was going during the 1975 season when I was 7. So for those of you who don't remember or don't know, look up how pathetic some of those teams were. Good grief, I remember when SCOTT BULL was the OBOTF.

So you can imagine how much of an idol Joe was to a 13-yo kid when he took those '81 Niners to the SB and won it. When I left for the Marines in 1986, I was DEVESTATED when I found out in boot camp that Montana hurt his back and might not ever play again. Once I was in the Fleet, I kept the Montana "Golden Great" poster on my barracks wall.

So yeah, I was a huge Montana fan.

But remember that after the 1990 NFCCG vs. Giants, Montana did not play for essentially TWO FULL SEASONS (1991-92), although he did play some in the last game of the '92 season. The point being, by that time it was clear Steve Young was also a great QB, and it was his time. I didn't want to see Montana go, but at that point SY was a better QB for the 49ers.

There actually was a contingent of fans that were more Joe Montana fans than they were 49er fans. MANY became "Chiefs fans" and wore #19 KC jerseys. I didn't get it, but c'est la vie.
[ Edited by DelCed2486 on Dec 5, 2012 at 12:06 PM ]
I was young but I remember it. At first I was a huge Montana guy and wanted Young traded. Then when Joe got hurt and Steve played so well I flipped over because SY was so different in terms of being able to run and pass and seemed more dynamic and he was much younger so I was ready to move on. My biological father whom I never speak of but I will here because its a great example, the day Joe was traded he gave me all his 49er stuff went to the mall and got a Chiefs shirt and hat and declared himself a KC fan. The day Joe beat the Niners I didn't talk to him for almost a week because it made him so happy.
For the people who thinks it's silly to compare Montana/Young and Smith/Kaepernick, of course it is. You're talking about two Hall of Fame QBs vs. a guy who has underachieved up until last year and a raw, but exciting talent.

But simply put... it's a drastically smaller scale of what Montana/Young was. The idea is that although Alex isn't proven, he's still shown that he can win with *this* team. He got us very close last year, and has been successful in his recent history. But we have a young, dynamic player in Kaepernick, who has pushed, and looks to have won the starting job.

Like Joe Montana and Steve Young, we have a case of a guy with complete understanding of the system and a guy who isn't as polished, but his physical talents make incredible plays.

Anyway... that's not the purpose of the discussion. The TC was discussing how two starting-level QBs *should* act when they're put in this difficult situation.

I personally think that Montana, Young, Smith, and Kaepernick had/have handled the situations with class. Montana and Young, for sure, were super competitive. It's what made them Hall-of-Famers, yet you never heard of them making a distraction for the team. Same with Alex and Kaep. It's actually incredible, given how intrusive the media is today. The most we've heard Alex say is that the "situation sucks" and that he hasn't done anything to lose his job. Both very true, and neither is a slight to Kaep.