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For WZ members that have been following football 35 + years

Originally posted by dugo:
Is troll a new kind of offense ??

Most consider it offensive.
  • dugo
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,047
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by dugo:
Is troll a new kind of offense ??

Most consider it offensive.

Hahaha...I was hoping it would of a "different" version of the WCO since theres so many out there now
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by GolittaCamper:
Can't put Alex on that list, just can't do it right now he is on a list with dozens and dozens of competent, yet forgettable QBs I've seen, sorry but he is no great shakes.

Agree that Alex Smith has to 1) lead the team to a Super Bowl win or 2) create a body of work over the next ten years that warrants being in this group. That does not preclude him from being compared because he may do either or both of these things before he retires. Archie Manning and Fran Tarkenton are examples of QBs whose body of work supports their being included...just didn't have the teams to get into the Super Bowl win category...or even the playoffs most years.

Smith has a very good supporting group so he may need a Lombardi Trophy to make it.

Yeah, Alex still has time to write his story, but if it ends with out a Superbowl, he will just fade away into the role call of NFL players. He has yet to do anything note worthy or truly memorable, that Saints game was his finest moment, but if that proves to be his high water mark, only us Niner fans will remember him.
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Born49R:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
While I don't have the memory of how individual QB's played, the situation for both are similiar. We had a horrible offensive line during Plunketts years while Oakland had that great offensive line. I've mentioned this in other threads.
our offensive line when plunkett played was very good in the run and average in pass protection. just like this year. when plunkett played we rode delvin williams to over 1000 yards and wilbur jackson to about 800 which was good then in the 14 game scedule. that is why i compare that team to this years, ,
See, I completely forgot about Jackson and Williams, all I remember is the horrible pass protection and Plunkett with happy feet all to often. Thanks, cciowa for reminding me of those two. As a kid I remember YA and RC Owens but don't remember if I actually watched the games or just saw them on the news. Time marches on.
Originally posted by Born49R:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Born49R:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
While I don't have the memory of how individual QB's played, the situation for both are similiar. We had a horrible offensive line during Plunketts years while Oakland had that great offensive line. I've mentioned this in other threads.
our offensive line when plunkett played was very good in the run and average in pass protection. just like this year. when plunkett played we rode delvin williams to over 1000 yards and wilbur jackson to about 800 which was good then in the 14 game scedule. that is why i compare that team to this years, ,
See, I completely forgot about Jackson and Williams, all I remember is the horrible pass protection and Plunkett with happy feet all to often. Thanks, cciowa for reminding me of those two. As a kid I remember YA and RC Owens but don't remember if I actually watched the games or just saw them on the news. Time marches on.

Funny...I was just wondering the same thing. Did I really see YA dropping to the ground before he was hit or just read about it? I was young but 1964 I would have been watching the NFL regularly, so probably did see it. Delvin and Wilbur were good players but Plunkett needed time to get his confidence back. His game was still not good when with the 9ers. If they had been more patient would he have been as good? No one can answer that one! Time does march on...until it doesn't!
Originally posted by Marvin49:
Gonna call big fat BS on that One. Even though their career QB ratings are similar (75.1 for Couch, 77.9 for Alex), their careers took very different paths. One of Couchs best seasons was his first season with 15TDs/13INTs. He only had one other season in his entire career with more TDs than INTs...his last (7TDs/6INTs) His QB rationg in every single season he played was between 73 and 78. He was consistantly mediocre.

Alex had 1TD/11INTs as a rookie and has been fighting that statistical season ever since. His QB Rating that year was 40.8. Outside of the injury years where it was clear he shouldn't have been playing, his QB rating has gone up in EVERY SINGLE SEASON: 40.8, 74.8, 81.5, 82.1, 90.7, 93.9 (thats this year so far). In that span (again taking out the rookie year and injury year) he has NEVER thrown more INTs than TDs.

If you look at career TD to INT ratios and just remove the rookie years (just to show career trajectory after rookie year) of each player, you get 49TDs/54INTs for Couch and 76TDs/52INTs for Smith.

Again, not close.

As for the other guys, I've been comparing him to Troy Aikman for years and peeps on this site have been saying it was ridiculous. Peeps love to hate Alex and remember Aikman better than he was. The Cowboys were Emmitts team and had the best O-Line in the NFL. Sound familiar?

I'll just leave you with these....

23/14
15/6
16/7

Those are Troy Aikmans TD to INT ratios in the three years they won the Super Bowl. Don't they look eerily close to Alex Smith lat year with 17/5?

Peeps can make the "it was a different era" comment all they want, but its BS. Yes, the rules have changed some but the fact remains that Aikman played in a run oriented O with the best O-Line in the NFL, just like Alex does now. Both teams challenged the thought process that it was a passing leage and just mauled people in the run game.

Oh...BTW....Troy was starting to be considered a BUST until they hired Norv Turner. In his first year with Norv, he had a ratio of 11TDs/10INTs. In the 2 years prior his ratios were 9TDs/18INTs and 11TDs/18INTs and QB ratings of 55.7 and 66.6.

Norv Turner turned his career around.

In my opinion, it has just taken Alex several years longer to find his Norv Turner.

He has already been a far more successful QB than Tim Couch. It ain't close.

I agree with your Alex and Aikman comparisons, I have been saying that Alex reminds me of Aikman (especially statistically). No I am not 50 or anything, but I have watched some good qbs play from the 80s- present, I would put Alex in the middle of the pack. If he wins a sb I'd move him up to Aikman,Simms,Johnson...status.
i wouldn't even compare old ass football to today's game. It's a completely different game.
  • BobS
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 7,573
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by BobS:
Head slap while the lineman trying to block you could not extend his arms trying to block, kind of like hitting a punching bag. The good old days.

Somehow, being an OLineman...I had a different perspective!
Seemed like when I played in High School and College they made offensive lineman out of the biggest guys, at 220 I was giving away 50+ pounds to the guy trying to block me, even in High School our line average was probably 270. I figure it was only fair that I could punch you in the ear holes and you could not hit me back.
Originally posted by BobS:
Seemed like when I played in High School and College they made offensive lineman out of the biggest guys, at 220 I was giving away 50+ pounds to the guy trying to block me, even in High School our line average was probably 270. I figure it was only fair that I could punch you in the ear holes and you could not hit me back.

Holy cr*p! I was the biggest guy on our HS team at 210! But we were much quicker than most and did a lot of pulling and trapping...fun stuff. In college I made it to the training table and was drafted...not by the NFL!
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,151
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by Born49R:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Born49R:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Originally posted by cciowa:
is it a fair statement to say alex has been pummeled into submission over the years before jh came to town? maybe instead of all this comparing alex to aikman stuff maybe the plunkett comparison to alex is more favorable?? or at least his situation?

That is a comparison I really think is apt. I watched Plunkett drop back and before he could reach his set point he was being hit. That really destroys a QB after a while. I give Flores all the credit in the world to realize he needed time to sit and get his bearings again. SF just put him in and hoped he could win. 13 TDs, 16 Ints and 9 TDs, 14 Ints in his two years with the 9ers.

Not sure I've ever seen a QB shake off multple hard hits over numerous games without being affected. Even YA became a bit shell shocked the last year of his career--something my father couldn't believe...10 TDs and 22 Ints...and numerous ducking downs.
While I don't have the memory of how individual QB's played, the situation for both are similiar. We had a horrible offensive line during Plunketts years while Oakland had that great offensive line. I've mentioned this in other threads.
our offensive line when plunkett played was very good in the run and average in pass protection. just like this year. when plunkett played we rode delvin williams to over 1000 yards and wilbur jackson to about 800 which was good then in the 14 game scedule. that is why i compare that team to this years, ,
See, I completely forgot about Jackson and Williams, all I remember is the horrible pass protection and Plunkett with happy feet all to often. Thanks, cciowa for reminding me of those two. As a kid I remember YA and RC Owens but don't remember if I actually watched the games or just saw them on the news. Time marches on.

Funny...I was just wondering the same thing. Did I really see YA dropping to the ground before he was hit or just read about it? I was young but 1964 I would have been watching the NFL regularly, so probably did see it. Delvin and Wilbur were good players but Plunkett needed time to get his confidence back. His game was still not good when with the 9ers. If they had been more patient would he have been as good? No one can answer that one! Time does march on...until it doesn't!
people have asked why he was no better than 8-6 with us and then was great with oakland, I think it goes back to the injuries and he just took him time to get his confidence back. that 1975 year we were 6-1 and was the best team in the nfl, willie mcgee got hurt, they doubled on gene washington, our pass protection was not good and plunkett got hit and made mistakes. plunketts wide outs in oakland were maybe better than ours esp when mcgee went down. running game was even with us. defense was pretty equal and actually for oakland, it got better when they got cedrick hardman from us in 1978 i love monte clark but i think flores was a better qb coach than monte plus as you said,, plunket needed time to get healed up and get his confidence back, that is why i draw a parallel to him back then and alex now
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 24,151
Originally posted by Canadian49er:
respect your elders,, the post was intended for us more mature guys
  • Lifer
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 946
Now that he's reaching his full potential, I have to say Smith's really not like any other QB I've ever seen. He's not a great QB by any means, but he's a solid starter with a unique combination of qualities. People have mentioned the toughness and intelligence. I would add extreme selflessness and tenacity. He plays a unique brand of "smart" football that runs 180 degrees counter to the current trend. Not very entertaining to watch (for non-49er fans) but very high percentage, high efficiency football. The only guy I can compare him to is Brad Johnson with the 2002-03 Buccaneers.
Originally posted by cciowa:
i love monte clark but i think flores was a better qb coach than monte plus as you said,, plunket needed time to get healed up and get his confidence back, that is why i draw a parallel to him back then and alex now

THis is so true...and I also really liked Clark, but Flores knew how to help QBs.