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Receivers need to attack the ball!

Originally posted by aTx49er:
Why do these threads always have to turn into AS threads with the same people bickering back and forth.

The OP made a statement that our receivers need to attack the ball more. This is a true statement. This is a true statement of alot of receivers in the league regardless of the team or QB......

It is because only our receivers have trouble fighting for the super few up-for-grab balls they are thrown. We discussed that so when you do a root-cause-analysis, guess which position is the link?
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
An OC gameplans and puts in the philosophy that ties into the strength of his players. That's what was said when Harbaugh came on last year. Norv Turner does not limit Phillip Rivers as he did Aikman and Smith. Jimmy Johnson did not limit Dan Marino as much as he did other QB's. If an OC is confident in the QB, then he lets him rip it. If an OC is not confident in a QB, then the plays are "safe" unless there is no other option. Look at how McCarthy called it with Alex as compared to what he did with ANY GB QB, including Matt Flynn.

No coach plays as safe as we do if they were confident in their QB. Trust me, it is not because the lack of abilities of our WR's because they have a lot of ability.

I find it VERY hard to believe that any OC in the NFL will call "safe" games if they believed their QB can make the difficult plays.

Ummmm, Turner is about to be fired here in SD b/c he ISN'T pulling back the reigns on Rivers like he did with Alex (rookie season) and Aikman (ball-controlled offense focused on running and timely passing). Who would limit Dan Marino at the end of a HOF career?

It sounds like Alex is your sole focal point that has a ripple effect on the type of offense we run (philosophy) and, Roman (game plan and in-game plays called), WR effectiveness, etc. Like I said...I think it starts with our offensive philosophy, to HaRoman down to player execution.

I do agree that the OC should call plays to our strengths (which is why Kaep is always on the move as a RB and throwing it as far as he can when called upon a few plays a game)...I just don't think Roman is calling plays to the strength of our PASSING game; as to the run? The dude is a "genius" like Gore referred to him as. Yes, Gore. Would Moss refer to Roman as a genius in the passing game? LOL.

I think Roman and Harbaugh are smart enough to know not to ignore a talented QB if they have one by not utilizing the receiving talents. Why can they use the strengths of all of our players except for Alex Smith's strengths? Maybe throwing those types of passes is not one of Alex's strength. Roman uses Kaep, he uses Gore, but he doesn't necessarily use Alex in the ways we see other QB's used. Now, is that because Roman isn't seeing something, which is very difficult to believe.

Is Turner smart enough to pull the reigns back from Rivers and focus more on balance? Didn't Alex become the #1 overall pick b/c of his production and intangibles in the spread - an offense predicated on PASSING? Coaches, like doctors or any profession, tend to stick to the model they are trained under and then build on it to make it their own at the NFL...and then have to adjust which is something we have not been doing as of late. So let's see how HaRoman adjust with some time, how Alex plays tonight, how the WR's play, etc.

But as to this thread and back on point, I'm still waiting for these receivers to show some damn fight out there, play balls out and make the most of the few opportunities they are going to get. B/c that is just fact...nobody in this offense on the receiving end is going to get more than a few chances a game whether its all Alex's fault, WR's, the OC or a combination of all.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 29, 2012 at 3:52 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Joecool:
An OC gameplans and puts in the philosophy that ties into the strength of his players. That's what was said when Harbaugh came on last year. Norv Turner does not limit Phillip Rivers as he did Aikman and Smith. Jimmy Johnson did not limit Dan Marino as much as he did other QB's. If an OC is confident in the QB, then he lets him rip it. If an OC is not confident in a QB, then the plays are "safe" unless there is no other option. Look at how McCarthy called it with Alex as compared to what he did with ANY GB QB, including Matt Flynn.

No coach plays as safe as we do if they were confident in their QB. Trust me, it is not because the lack of abilities of our WR's because they have a lot of ability.

I find it VERY hard to believe that any OC in the NFL will call "safe" games if they believed their QB can make the difficult plays.

Ummmm, Turner is about to be fired here in SD b/c he ISN'T pulling back the reigns on Rivers like he did with Alex (rookie season) and Aikman (ball-controlled offense focused on running and timely passing). Who would limit Dan Marino at the end of a HOF career?

It sounds like Alex is your sole focal point that has a ripple effect on the type of offense we run (philosophy) and, Roman (game plan and in-game plays called), WR effectiveness, etc. Like I said...I think it starts with our offensive philosophy, to HaRoman down to player execution.

I do agree that the OC should call plays to our strengths (which is why Kaep is always on the move as a RB and throwing it as far as he can when called upon a few plays a game)...I just don't think Roman is calling plays to the strength of our PASSING game; as to the run? The dude is a "genius" like Gore referred to him as. Yes, Gore. Would Moss refer to Roman as a genius in the passing game? LOL.

I think Roman and Harbaugh are smart enough to know not to ignore a talented QB if they have one by not utilizing the receiving talents. Why can they use the strengths of all of our players except for Alex Smith's strengths? Maybe throwing those types of passes is not one of Alex's strength. Roman uses Kaep, he uses Gore, but he doesn't necessarily use Alex in the ways we see other QB's used. Now, is that because Roman isn't seeing something, which is very difficult to believe.

Is Turner smart enough to pull the reigns back from Rivers and focus more on balance? Didn't Alex become the #1 overall pick b/c of his production and intangibles in the spread - an offense predicated on PASSING? Coaches, like doctors or any profession, tend to stick to the model they are trained under and then build on it to make it their own at the NFL...and then have to adjust which is something we have not been doing as of late. So let's see how HaRoman adjust with some time, how Alex plays tonight, how the WR's play, etc.

But as to this thread and back on point, I'm still waiting for these receivers to show some damn fight out there, play balls out and make the most of the few opportunities they are going to get. B/c that is just fact...nobody in this offense on the receiving end is going to get more than a few chances a game whether its all Alex's fault, the OC or the combination of both.

SD's problem throughout Turner's tenure was not offense. They had major defensive issues.

As for sticking to models they trained under...aside from a few NCAA teams, most QB's coming out of college were not familiar with a Pro Style offense. Although, even the ones who didn't pan out, were confident enough in themselves to put a few notches in the "I don't need 6 years to get this" category.

The difference in the NFL isn't the systems, it is the types of plays players must make. A RB in college can take that extra split second to rethink his hole whereas in the NFL, they can't. QB's in college can play catch with their best WR's due to the talent disparity or lack of DB fundamentals.

The biggest point is that players, while in that adjustment phase, trust their abilities into doing things that are at a higher level on occasion. If they still have not done it, then maybe they just don't have the ability or mentality. It's not the receivers. There's only one player that plays the biggest role in putting his receivers in the best positions and when it is usually a play like the Delanie play, Alex rarely puts his receivers in the best positions to make a play on the ball.

Take the Braylon Ewards INT vs BAL. The ball was thrown about 3 yards inside completely taking away Braylon's height advantage and position advantage on the DB. The placement heavily swung the odds in the defender's favor. Now comes 2012 and Braylon has a QB known for his accuracy and ball placement. He throws Braylon similar types of throws BUT does not force Braylon to veer sideways allowing him full potential to use his height and leaping. Braylon looks good.
[ Edited by Joecool on Oct 29, 2012 at 3:59 PM ]
Originally posted by Faraz80:
Except we have a tendency here on Ninertalk to blame the receivers, coaches, STs, and defense a bit more than AS when in reality a lot of those situations Smith is to blame. Key example: the INT thrown by AS on a pass intended to DWalker. I dont know how or why anyone could pin that on Delanie, but for some odd reason fellow members found a way to do it. Just puzzling if you ask me

Even beatwriters like Maiocco faulted Walker to some degree. Guess he's just an Alexcuser too though, right? I just ask people to be honest. Most if not all have said that Alex got fooled on the coverage of Amukamara as he looked like he was trailing INside to Rio but flipped hips to turn and cover Walker. The difference is, other people suggest Walker couldn't possibly have done something useful.. like go up for the ball like the DB did? Like tackle the DB instead of standing to his outer right hip and just hugging the DB after he went up for the ball? Give me a break. Anyone willing to be honest has to fault Walker for being a useless husk on that play.
Originally posted by Joecool:
Not sure how much he trusts Vernon. He doesn't throw to Vernon often when Vernon is covered tight. This is the biggest issue with Alex and we all know he rarely does this.

I would bet if Moss, Crabtree or Vernon see more balls when they are not wide open, they make more impressive catches. Lower percentage throws are a numbers game. The odds always favor the WR in one-on-one matchups for the most part. Other QB's make more of these attempts which does result in a few more INT's, but also result in their WR's appears as if they always attack balls. Gotta play the law of averages.

Take a look at Calivin Johnson a couple of weeks ago. He got one catch but was still thrown to 10+ times even in tight coverage. He only came down with one. Does that mean he doesn't attack balls? No.

I find it hard to believe that Crabtree, who is a very aggressive catcher, will not attack balls. Same with Moss (already proven). Manningham has made many difficult catches with Eli.

Now if the reasoning is that Alex needs to trust them...well...I think the problem is more Alex trusting himself or his ball placement on those throws.

Several issues with your ideas here:

1) Crabtree is an anomaly, making very good catches at times and fighting for yards, but in the NFL has never been a physical WR who aggressively attacks the ball. In college he seemed much more aggressive.

2) VD is a great TE receiver and blocker but he is not a guy who generally wins battles for jump balls. He has improved so much over the past two years that I hesitate to say he can't, but he hasn't up til now.

3) Not sure why they haven''t targeted Moss much unless they are working him in slowly for some reason. He seems to get open when he does play. Other than a couple of drops he has been a very strong receiver and one who does fight for the ball.

4) Williams actually fights for the ball but is limited by his size. But he is most often open when targeted, as the scheme calls for.

5) Alex Smith should throw into tight coverage more? Rather than finding the uncovered receiver? Not the way the offense works as Roman has stated numerous times this year. They design plays to get a guy open and expect Smith to hit that guy when he's open. This is more difficult the open passing game most QBs get to play. Requires patience and self control, with ego in check.
Our receivers dont attack the ball. Thats why its 3-0 not 7-0 right now.
Originally posted by 80sbaby24:
Our receivers dont attack the ball. Thats why its 3-0 not 7-0 right now.

Now you know why Smith always throws high to Crabtree...pretty play all the way around.
Best game by our WRs in years.
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Best game by our WRs in years.

Has a receiver even attacked the ball?
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Best game by our WRs in years.

Has a receiver even attacked the ball?

Yes, he's serving 5 to 10 for 3rd strike vandalism!
Oh, wow, looks like Crabtree attacked the ball, as he has always done when the throw was in the same area code as him. Now people can stop pretending that Alex has been cursed to be the only QB in the NFL without receivers who "attack the ball," unlike the lucky, lucky Brady, Manning, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger.
Originally posted by UNitwit:
Oh, wow, looks like Crabtree attacked the ball, as he has always done when the throw was in the same area code as him. Now people can stop pretending that Alex has been cursed to be the only QB in the NFL without receivers who "attack the ball," unlike the lucky, lucky Brady, Manning, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger.

Huh?

Oh and Nice screen name.
all did a great job tonight
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,131
Originally posted by Jakemall:
Originally posted by UNitwit:
Oh, wow, looks like Crabtree attacked the ball, as he has always done when the throw was in the same area code as him. Now people can stop pretending that Alex has been cursed to be the only QB in the NFL without receivers who "attack the ball," unlike the lucky, lucky Brady, Manning, Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Rivers, and Roethlisberger.

Huh?

Oh and Nice screen name.

NFL. Not. For. Long here. Be gone by sundown tomorrow I am guessing.
  • dj43
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 20,131
I thought Dilfer made a good point when he said the 49ers are just now beginning to learn how to use Crabtree. MC finally played tonight the way he played in college. He was attacking the ball and holding it. Let's hope this was his breakout game. He certainly made some great moves for YAC.
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