Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by LVJay:
"KW, Baldwin, Moore" ... the funny thing (but really quite sad) to me was I thought they would AT LEAST help out... I truly did

Me too

^^ That's f****d up, man, we were tricked

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:

Roman don't have a clue. He doesn't know what a forward pass 3 or 4 wr sets are. All he knows is jumbo slow preditcable formation.

If you saw our WR depth chart for most of the year, you'd understand why we didn't trot out 3 and 4 WR sets very often.

So you're telling me Seattle's Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate and Zach Miller are more talented then Quan, VD,KW and Baldwin???? Hahaha whatever, if the 49ers and Seachickens traded wrs & TEs all of the sudden Baldwin and Golden Tate would become worthless as 49er wrs because due to the Crap Coaching of the OC and playcalling & design and scheme, JH and GR need to realize this isn't Stanford anymore. I really appreciate what Harbaugh has done to change the culture into a winning culture but Lets get real, the NFL has caught up to the 49ers offenseive playcalling.

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:

Roman don't have a clue. He doesn't know what a forward pass 3 or 4 wr sets are. All he knows is jumbo slow preditcable formation.

If you saw our WR depth chart for most of the year, you'd understand why we didn't trot out 3 and 4 WR sets very often.

So you're telling me Seattle's Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate and Zach Miller are more talented then Quan, VD,KW and Baldwin???? Hahaha whatever, if the 49ers and Seachickens traded wrs & TEs all of the sudden Baldwin and Golden Tate would become worthless as 49er wrs because due to the Crap Coaching of the OC and playcalling & design and scheme, JH and GR need to realize this isn't Stanford anymore. I really appreciate what Harbaugh has done to change the culture into a winning culture but Lets get real, the NFL has caught up to the 49ers offenseive playcalling.

You hit the bullseye, I couldn't agree with you more.

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
Roman don't have a clue. He doesn't know what a forward pass 3 or 4 wr sets are. All he knows is jumbo slow preditcable formation.

If you saw our WR depth chart for most of the year, you'd understand why we didn't trot out 3 and 4 WR sets very often.

So you're telling me Seattle's Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate and Zach Miller are more talented then Quan, VD,KW and Baldwin???? Hahaha whatever, if the 49ers and Seachickens traded wrs & TEs all of the sudden Baldwin and Golden Tate would become worthless as 49er wrs because due to the Crap Coaching of the OC and playcalling & design and scheme, JH and GR need to realize this isn't Stanford anymore. I really appreciate what Harbaugh has done to change the culture into a winning culture but Lets get real, the NFL has caught up to the 49ers offenseive playcalling.

I wanted to ask about the 1RB/1TE/3WR vs 2RB/2TE/1WR personnel not as a comparison to any other team's WRs but only to see what HaRo was fielding. I want to look at this team in a vacuum, not in relation to any other team and their WRs. I don't care what SEA is doing.

It's a bit tricky with the 49ers, if they have Crabs and Boldin on the field, they can still line VD out wide and it could almost be considered a 3WR look.

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:

Originally posted by SofaKing:

Originally posted by ElephantHaley:
Roman don't have a clue. He doesn't know what a forward pass 3 or 4 wr sets are. All he knows is jumbo slow preditcable formation.

If you saw our WR depth chart for most of the year, you'd understand why we didn't trot out 3 and 4 WR sets very often.

So you're telling me Seattle's Doug Baldwin and Golden Tate and Zach Miller are more talented then Quan, VD,KW and Baldwin???? Hahaha whatever, if the 49ers and Seachickens traded wrs & TEs all of the sudden Baldwin and Golden Tate would become worthless as 49er wrs because due to the Crap Coaching of the OC and playcalling & design and scheme, JH and GR need to realize this isn't Stanford anymore. I really appreciate what Harbaugh has done to change the culture into a winning culture but Lets get real, the NFL has caught up to the 49ers offenseive playcalling.

+1

And people wonder why this team sucks at developing receivers. When guys like Baldwin (and Moore when he was here) are sitting on the bench much of time, lucky to even touch the ball in a game, what the f**k do you expect? Good OC's don't need to rely religiously on established talents just to get by, good OC's can get production from even the lesser talented guys. Darrell Bevell is doing just that in Seattle.

Using 1 WR sets 5X more than the average? I'm sorry but that's just pathetic and piss poor scheming and play calling. Love JH, but Roman can kick rocks. He's peaked as an OC imo. Creative and innovative my ass.

Originally posted by thl408:
I wanted to ask about the 1RB/1TE/3WR vs 2RB/2TE/1WR personnel not as a comparison to any other team's WRs but only to see what HaRo was fielding. I want to look at this team in a vacuum, not in relation to any other team and their WRs. I don't care what SEA is doing.

It's a bit tricky with the 49ers, if they have Crabs and Boldin on the field, they can still line VD out wide and it could almost be considered a 3WR look.

Good point! The niners have quite a bit of flexibility in personnel matters with VD being a huge advantage. How many teams have a TE who is faster than their starting WRs?

James could also be an advantage if he is used as a WR once in a while... Hunter as well. McDonald is a solid TE but still a rookie. I think he will eventually help VD's being used creatively more often.

So, if James is in motion, VD lined up out wide, Boldin and Crabtree at WR...you have a pretty formidable receiving group. Add Gore to the package and you have a lot of fire power...on top of that, CK's legs! If Roman and Harbaugh can't think of a way to get these guys isolated in good one on ones...they are hopeless, which they aren't. I expect an interesting finish to the season.

Originally posted by thl408:
It seems you don't like how the pass distribution of this offense is working out. If the question is "what does HaRo's true offense look like?", I feel the best time period to look is the start of 2012 when Smith was the starter coming into the season with a full offseason (unlike 2011) to implement.
Here is the pass distribution in number of 49er players with at least one catch in the game for 2012: GB 6, DET 7, MIN 8, NYJ 6, BUF 6, NYG 8, SEA 6, ARI 9. I'm looking here: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/sfo/2012.htm

These are for the games Smith started and finished. So 9 players in the ARI game had at least 1 catch. I am not sure how these totals came about with regards to were they schemed plays to a specific WR or pro style progression? Let me know what you think of that time period as a timespan to sample. I don't know his offense at Standford or SD.

I think the top heavy pass distribution this season, and late last season (so much Crab) is due to Kap. HaRo was quick to alter the playbook to hold his hand once it they felt they did not have the ingredients (my four weighted factors) to run a dynamic passing attack. Kap was going to endure the growing pains. Why they don't scheme these plays for Baldwin and Vance more is a good question. If you recall, these guys have had their number called, very specifically, with subpar results. The totals above lead me to believe HaRo isn't against the idea of many players getting targets.

I doubt that this AR offense is as frequent in-game as you think, especially after 2013's bye week. In certain situations where HaRo has noted how an opposing defense has been playing them that day then sure, dial up a college style one read play that attacks a certain hole in the defense and hope it's the right call. But it can't be the underlying theme of an offense. Like you said, it's just too predictable against the good defenses and leaves no room for mistake. Surely HaRo isn't that naive. As Kap grows, more will be given to him and the offense will progress along. Someone here mentioned in a post long ago that in 2014 Kap will be playing well, and we'll think, "what happened to HaRo, the offense looks so much better" (something to that effect was posted), but it's just Kap being able to see the entire field, knowing better, and quicker, where to go with the ball.

About why Kap didn't play more in the preseason, perhaps Jim didn't want to play the entire starting Oline significant snaps. Remember how the backup OL was doing in the preseason? However, the blowouts this season, now that was a good time to scrimmage. I recall once each in WAS and STL, 3rd and 7ish with the game in hand. Run and punt. Wasted opportunity to gain film room material for Kap to view.

edit: Gotta add that when I stated the best time to gauge the HaRo offense being start of 2012, it was in particular to the pass distribution aspect.

Yeah, 2012 with 2 different QB's is really, all we have to go off of at this juncture. So looking at the distribution from last year, we have:
RB Distribution:
Frank Gore 28 (< 2 receptions a game)
Bruce Miller 12
Kendall Hunter 9
LaMichael James 3
Anthony Dixon 0

WR/TE Distribution:
Michael Crabtree 85 (5 receptions a game)
Mario Manningham 42 (< 3 a game)
Randy Moss 28 (< 2 a game)
Kyle Williams 14 (< 1)
Ted Ginn Jr. 2
Vernon Davis 41 (2.5 receptions a game)
Delanie Walker 21 (only 1.3)
Garrett Celek 4

To me, this distribution list, even with a more veteran QB like Smith (better audibles, better ability to spread it around, read defenses, etc.) for the first 9 games, looks pretty identical to this year with a massive drop-off from the AR's to the next in line. In fact, we don't even need to look up this years stats to know the RB's get virtually nothing in the passing game and if your name isn't VD or Boldin, f*getaboutit! Same exact pattern. So again, as a DC, you don't worry about the RB/FB's at all in the passing game, you stack the box and run blitz and simply, focus your attention on covering the top 2 AR's. Last year it was Crabtree and Davis. This year, it's Boldin and Davis. Fortunately, they are so exceptional they beat their men in talent alone the mass majority of the time; we see this pattern vs. poor teams vs. good defenses that shut them down.

Look at the speed this team had in 2012 with Ginn, Walker and Moss (beyond Davis). People claim this is the missing element in our offense this year...that we don't have that WR to stretch the field and if nothing else, be a good enough deep threat to draw attention away from the AR's. Well, did we use it for anything other than a decoy (or at all)? So if we had Jacoby Jones, would HaRoMan even use him properly?

Now, I don't know about you, but if you have the likes of Frank Gore, Bruce Miller, Kendall Hunter, LaMichael James, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr., Vernon Davis & Delanie Walker, one couldn't come up with not only a better distribution of passes but full usage of the field and more evenly distributed passes to ensure the defense can't hone in on 1 or 2 guys? One couldn't utilize and essentially, develop other threats by simply using them as the AR more and more and more like how Ginn is being used in Carolina? We are seeing the exact same pattern this year and the quality DC's have figured it out...followed by the media now referring to CK as a "one-read QB."

Here is another example; I watched SportsCenter after the Redskins game and they interviewed Boldin and asked what was so different in that game vs. the previous two losses and naturally, he just said they executed better. Then they asked HIM why he had so many catches in the GB game and then his numbers seemed to be up and down from one game to the next. He flat out said it was the game plan. He said some game plans he's the primary target and other's he's asked to "block much more" and that he knows his role and complies accordingly. Doesn't THIS sound exactly like what Moss said last year? He also referenced that the execution portion of his comment was directed at the ad lib plays (the AR play breaking down and CK running, buying more time with his legs and allowing Boldin to shake the DB and get open - for a TD). This is more evidence of the AR offense and how CK is instructed to play....hit your AR under 3 seconds and if not open right away, use your legs to buy more time (throw) or run. Simple. They also interviewed CK and he also alluded to the fact that that week, they, "focused more on the passing game." What does this tell you? To me, this is more evidence that CK and the passing game is nothing more than an extension of their primary offensive philosophy (major focus on the running game and shifts and large #'s of personnel packages).

If the primary receiver (AR) is only catching an average of 5 receptions a game in 2012 and 2013, how in the world is a young QB to get into any rhythm? How is anyone other than the AR to get into any real rhythm? How are these young kids such as McDonald and Baldwin going to make low % catches quite simply, cold, off the bench? You can say the same about the big drop with Gore as well as a pass catcher. You hit him more in each game and in the Saints game in particular, he makes that long catch and wide open YAC for a TD and that Brooks call isn't "as" relevent. You practice it more during the weeks, put more emphasis on it, Gore probably wouldn't become the progressively poor pass catcher he's become over the past 3 years. He used to be stellar in this department.

So in short, I don't see this distribution of AR passing game a result of an inexperienced QB who struggles with progression reads (or a personnel issue). I see it as a function of the type of offense (and philosophy) we employ here. And aside from not pulling the trigger on the AR by CK, I can't truly evaluate him. He has an incomplete grade from me; I don't even know how to evaluate him compared to other QB's.

To me, this passing offense is about game planning the AR open under 3 seconds and if covered (or CK doesn't pull the trigger) it instantly becomes an ad lib play (not a true progression-read offense). CK is "instructed" to be off and running after 3 seconds to buy more time for all of his receivers to realize what is going on and adjust to him (like the VD TD in the Rams game) or run it himself. "Trust" is still a very important element esp. in these ad lib plays. That 60 yard pass-and-catch to Crabtree may have been just that...that play may have had Crabtree as the AR1 (IIRC, he didn't look anywhere else) on a sideline curl route...but he was covered. And Crabtree has that ad lib-chemistry with CK and turned up field and CK pumped and hit him in stride. Or perhaps, this WAS the AR1 play design...either way, Crabtree was the AR1 (all-or-nothing). I'm willing to concede there "may" have been more pro-style offensive passing plays installed recently (ones that have real timing progression reads built in) but I just haven't seen much evidence proving this on tape (still).

But IMHO, in the end, CK is nothing more than an extension of the play call and CK is doing exactly what he is being instructed to do the majority of the time under the guidance of his coaches and their offensive philosophy.

Originally posted by thl408:
Thanks! I'm looking to see what that stat looks like once Ham came back, and of course, last week when Crabs came back. I speculate that if there are more quality WRs to use, they would be used.

I believe this as well...although we'll probably still see tons of 22 personnel on 1st downs running into the predictable wall of defenders. But it seemed to me that recently, we put more 3 WR sets out there and I expect more balance in this fashion. But I don't expect it to decrease the 25% of the 22 that much.

Originally posted by NCommand:

Now, I don't know about you, but if you have the likes of Frank Gore, Bruce Miller, Kendall Hunter, LaMichael James, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr., Vernon Davis & Delanie Walker, one couldn't come up with not only a better distribution of passes but full usage of the field and more evenly distributed passes to ensure the defense can't hone in on 1 or 2 guys? We are seeing the exact same pattern this year and the quality DC's have figured it out...followed by the media now referring to CK as a "one-read QB."

The thing that hurts Kaepernick as a young QB is being able to scan the field quickly for potential receivers. He has missed quite a few receivers running free while he was trying to spot a particular guy. All QBs do this to some extent, but CK seems to have regressed from last year.

Smith didn't have the best field vision either but seems much better in KC...scheme? Reid no doubt points out where he's missed passes in the last game, sometimes I wonder what the niners do in their QB meetings.

It could be just a matter of CK putting too much pressure on himself this year and missing the relaxed, big picture he had last year when it was more school yardish...go in there and make big plays vs control the game.

At any rate, the plays have been very much directed to an area of the field this year and I miss the throw backs and looking off that happened last year. There have been almost no plays with CK using his eyes and head position to move DBs out of the way. That's not the scheme...so...many factors seem to need remedy...quickly!

Originally posted by dtg_9er:

Originally posted by NCommand:

Now, I don't know about you, but if you have the likes of Frank Gore, Bruce Miller, Kendall Hunter, LaMichael James, Michael Crabtree, Mario Manningham, Randy Moss, Kyle Williams, Ted Ginn Jr., Vernon Davis & Delanie Walker, one couldn't come up with not only a better distribution of passes but full usage of the field and more evenly distributed passes to ensure the defense can't hone in on 1 or 2 guys? We are seeing the exact same pattern this year and the quality DC's have figured it out...followed by the media now referring to CK as a "one-read QB."

The thing that hurts Kaepernick as a young QB is being able to scan the field quickly for potential receivers. He has missed quite a few receivers running free while he was trying to spot a particular guy. All QBs do this to some extent, but CK seems to have regressed from last year.

Smith didn't have the best field vision either but seems much better in KC...scheme? Reid no doubt points out where he's missed passes in the last game, sometimes I wonder what the niners do in their QB meetings.

It could be just a matter of CK putting too much pressure on himself this year and missing the relaxed, big picture he had last year when it was more school yardish...go in there and make big plays vs control the game.

At any rate, the plays have been very much directed to an area of the field this year and I miss the throw backs and looking off that happened last year. There have been almost no plays with CK using his eyes and head position to move DBs out of the way. That's not the scheme...so...many factors seem to need remedy...quickly!

Agreed...remember the fly sweeps, toss outs to Hunter on the edges, roll-right, toss back to VD on the other side of the field, VD seam routes, wham blocks with CK under center with Miller in front of Gore/Hunter, etc. These are just a FEW of the plays Roman has scraped from last year alone. And yet, I've seen nothing added to help either his running game or QB and passing offense other than the Miller AR passes. At the same rate, I saw personnel misusage of Kyle Williams out on the edges, no McDonald in the soft zones as an outlet for CK or as an AR more than 1 pass a game, very little Boldin in the slots (esp. in the RZ where he used to make his money), Hunter and the OL on stretch runs only, first down predictability, etc. It's just a very vanilla offense that doesn't use it's personnel properly (or at all) and isn't helping CK develop much IMHO (maybe even regressing).

That said, when the AR's are covered, there have been ad lib times where we ALL have seen wide open players and CK is staring right at them and chooses to run instead. He isn't hitting them. That Baldwin play earlier in the year made me think that perhaps, he is being instructed to run in those case vs. hitting a wide open WR he's staring at in the middle of the field. Baldwin was open by 10 yards...NOBODY around him. Simple pass. Is that coaching or indecision/trust on CK's part? I lean towards coaching b/c we saw the SAME thing under Alex...and now that Alex is growing under Reid, is that same trend holding? It doesn't sound like it.

I look at it this way the past is the past it cant be changed now. At the moment were 8-4 we control our destiny on getting that final play off spot. For Roman he has a QB with a rocket arm great speed he has Boldin Crabtree Manningham Baldwin Patton Davis Gore Mcdonald James Hunter all good weapons. He needs to call plays that will make these players show case there talents he does not do that his plays are very vanilla and easy to figure out. We have enough players on offense to create match up nightmares yet he doesn't do that. I remember a few years ago Norv Turnver and Mike Martz as our OC's with way less talent than we have now adjusted to what they had got creative and made the offense click. That's a sign of a good OC Roman has not shown that yet.

Originally posted by Raul98:
I look at it this way the past is the past it cant be changed now. At the moment were 8-4 we control our destiny on getting that final play off spot. For Roman he has a QB with a rocket arm great speed he has Boldin Crabtree Manningham Baldwin Patton Davis Gore Mcdonald James Hunter all good weapons. He needs to call plays that will make these players show case there talents he does not do that his plays are very vanilla and easy to figure out. We have enough players on offense to create match up nightmares yet he doesn't do that. I remember a few years ago Norv Turnver and Mike Martz as our OC's with way less talent than we have now adjusted to what they had got creative and made the offense click. That's a sign of a good OC Roman has not shown that yet.

totally agree.

Originally posted by pdizo916:

Originally posted by Raul98:

I look at it this way the past is the past it cant be changed now. At the moment were 8-4 we control our destiny on getting that final play off spot. For Roman he has a QB with a rocket arm great speed he has Boldin Crabtree Manningham Baldwin Patton Davis Gore Mcdonald James Hunter all good weapons. He needs to call plays that will make these players show case there talents he does not do that his plays are very vanilla and easy to figure out. We have enough players on offense to create match up nightmares yet he doesn't do that. I remember a few years ago Norv Turnver and Mike Martz as our OC's with way less talent than we have now adjusted to what they had got creative and made the offense click. That's a sign of a good OC Roman has not shown that yet.

totally agree.

Agree. Hope he comes out with a nice gameplan this weekend & to finish the season to get this offense on a roll.

Sheesh, NCommand, one guy got it...you. That is amazing and pretty well confirms what I had long thot. About 95% of people posting pay no attention to what has already been written...proving that sometimes in a conversation, it is nice to give your ears a chance and hear what other folks have been saying.

Sadly, on the WZ, most folks post something without reading what has been written previously. Unfortunately that happens in threads that are lengthy, eg, this one and the Kap thread. It makes for some bizarre comments as well as many people repeating ,exactly what was said just one or two pages back, not to mention 50 or 100 pages back. You sure read before inserting foot as do others we both know...but we are in the huge minority of those that do so.

Just guessing I would bet that is age related, and reading before writing is inversely proportional to age...ie, the older one is the more likely he is to know what the thread has said or reported already. The younger, the less likely. Sigh....