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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Vance can't catch balls if they aren't thrown to him!

It's the play-calling.
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,197
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by GEEK:
I think Roman has found a way to successfully integrate the FB in our passing game, and that itself has taken opportunities away from Vance McDonald and other offensive players.

Also, we've put more focus on our run game. Colin Kaepernick has averaged about 21 passes per game during our 5 game winning streak, while we've rushed for an average 38 times per game in the same time period.

In contrast, Alex Smith and the Chiefs has averaged about 32 passes per game and 28 rushes per game in the same time period.

With Kaepernick's trust in Vernon and Anquan, Roman's focus on integrating Bruce Miller as a primary weapon on offensive plays, and a reduction in pass play calls is resulting in Vance McDonald's diminished value as a receiver.

That being said, he's developed into an outstanding blocker.

Good post. But I highly doubt someone could convince me that CK feels more comfortable passing to Bruce Miller on the edge over actual receivers such as Baldwin, McDonald and Williams from the slot. Again, ppl keep assuming the passing issues are trust issues between CK and only Boldin/VD but the real issue of trust appears to be between those dialing up the passing plays (whoever that is) and who THEY trust. It appears whoever is calling the passing plays is forcing Miller into an unnatural passing game (dialing him up); the question is why? And why wouldn't you use a TE or WR as a safer option over a LB-turned-FB?

Good debate, and you make a great point.

But I think part of it is more around the chess element to game planning and scheming. As a defensive coordinator, you focus on containing Frank Gore and Colin Kaepernick in the run/read option game, and Vernon Davis and Anquan Boldin in the passing game.

When you are in the power I, pistol, or two TE set, and have a track record of running the read option or gashing for large runs with Gore, it's puts so much analytical strain on opposing defenses.

Kaepernick fakes the hand off, Miller fakes a block and runs a route, LB that is supposed to be covering him instead plays QB contain, allowing for Miller to be a direct open target on a QB pass.
Originally posted by GEEK:
Good debate, and you make a great point.

But I think part of it is more around the chess element to game planning and scheming. As a defensive coordinator, you focus on containing Frank Gore and Colin Kaepernick in the run/read option game, and Vernon Davis and Anquan Boldin in the passing game.

When you are in the power I, pistol, or two TE set, and have a track record of running the read option or gashing for large runs with Gore, it's puts so much analytical strain on opposing defenses.

Kaepernick fakes the hand off, Miller fakes a block and runs a route, LB that is supposed to be covering him instead plays QB contain, allowing for Miller to be a direct open target on a QB pass.

That's a very fair way of looking at it...obviously, Roman loves that element of surprise here.

Looking forward to getting McDonald/Hunter/James more involved in the passing game (Gore too on flare outs/swing passes) and eventually, Manningham and Crabtree. We'll have to see what the full arsenal looks like.
Ditto, again, ditto...except I am curious what crbs and mario look like after 21 days. I like the league policy, but just because they are ok to practice, doesn't necessarily mean they will be able to play at 100% of their pre surgery level. IF, IF,we get either of those guys back on the field I will be ecstatic. Getting both? Hard for me to believe. Hence, we need to get baldwin, vance, LMj into the mix...if for no other reason to make the D respect those 3 guys in addition to #81 and #85. Right now the Ds basically ignore the 3 noted above. And please don't tell me that is roman's plan...that would be hard to buy.
On Ted Ginn Jr.: Primarily used as the 49ers' return specialist the previous three seasons, Ginn had just two receptions for 1 yard last season. This season, he has 21 receptions for 367 yards and two touchdowns.

Why didn't he get more of an opportunity as a 49ers wideout?

"Don't know," Ginn replied. "We were striving for a Super Bowl so I was being a team player, being a role guy and fulfilling my role."

I always felt we could have used him more in the role of the Randy Moss-decoy on post and fly patterns to free up everyone else underneath but had hoped we actually HIT him on a couple of those routes. He wasn't 1/2 as bad as everyone thought.

Either way, there seems to be a serious trust issue with personnel here. But now with Crabtree, Manningham and key draft picks along the DL, we'll see this coaching staff's true colors a bit more. They have MORE than the full arsenal they could have ever wished for and top-to-bottom, probably, the most talented (or at least, deepest) team in the NFL.

Come on HaRoMan!
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 6, 2013 at 12:51 PM ]
  • GEEK
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 17,197
Originally posted by NCommand:
On Ted Ginn Jr.: Primarily used as the 49ers' return specialist the previous three seasons, Ginn had just two receptions for 1 yard last season. This season, he has 21 receptions for 367 yards and two touchdowns.

Why didn't he get more of an opportunity as a 49ers wideout?

"Don't know," Ginn replied. "We were striving for a Super Bowl so I was being a team player, being a role guy and fulfilling my role."

I always felt we could have used him more in the role of the Randy Moss-decoy on post and fly patterns to free up everyone else underneath but had hoped we actually HIT him on a couple of those routes. He wasn't 1/2 as bad as everyone thought.

Either way, there seems to be a serious trust issue with personnel here. But now with Crabtree, Manningham and key draft picks along the DL, we'll see this coaching staff's true colors a bit more. They have MORE than the full arsenal they could have ever wished for and top-to-bottom, probably, the most talented (or at least, deepest) team in the NFL.

Come on HaRoMan!

Well remember we had drafted LaMichael James to assume the PR/KR role and replaced Ted Ginn for Anquan Boldin. So heading up to the draft, we had healthy Crabtree and Boldin, an emerging Kyle Williams, a recovering Manningham, and a first rounder in A.J. Jenkins, along with a 2nd round RB to handle special teams duties.

We obviously need to continue the overhaul, but I don't blame Baalke and Harbaugh for letting Ginn go.
Originally posted by NCommand:
On Ted Ginn Jr.: Primarily used as the 49ers' return specialist the previous three seasons, Ginn had just two receptions for 1 yard last season. This season, he has 21 receptions for 367 yards and two touchdowns.

Why didn't he get more of an opportunity as a 49ers wideout?

"Don't know," Ginn replied. "We were striving for a Super Bowl so I was being a team player, being a role guy and fulfilling my role."

I always felt we could have used him more in the role of the Randy Moss-decoy on post and fly patterns to free up everyone else underneath but had hoped we actually HIT him on a couple of those routes. He wasn't 1/2 as bad as everyone thought.

Either way, there seems to be a serious trust issue with personnel here. But now with Crabtree, Manningham and key draft picks along the DL, we'll see this coaching staff's true colors a bit more. They have MORE than the full arsenal they could have ever wished for and top-to-bottom, probably, the most talented (or at least, deepest) team in the NFL.

Come on HaRoMan!

Sure. Is there a pecking order / invisible try out hurdle that players have to pass to be part of the mix on field? I think of Brandon Jacobs and wonder why did this guy not contribute? Personality clash with coaching staff? We find reasons not to use people to their capability.
Originally posted by GEEK:
Well remember we had drafted LaMichael James to assume the PR/KR role and replaced Ted Ginn for Anquan Boldin. So heading up to the draft, we had healthy Crabtree and Boldin, an emerging Kyle Williams, a recovering Manningham, and a first rounder in A.J. Jenkins, along with a 2nd round RB to handle special teams duties.

We obviously need to continue the overhaul, but I don't blame Baalke and Harbaugh for letting Ginn go.

Yeah, I had no real issues with it either but was more wondering WHY we didn't use him better as a receiver...use his speed more other than for just end-arounds. Obviously, Carolina has found much better use of him on the field beyond ST's.
Greg Roman has been one of the most creative and savvy coordinators for a few years now. I'm responding to a lot of the previous posts (there were a ton) but as a new member of the board, I heard some CRAZY talk from 49ers radio stations after you guys lost two in a row...things like: fire Harbaugh, fire Roman...overreaction like that isn't for educated fans let alone radio station hosts. But again, I just wanted to show my support for Roman. Great offensive mind!
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Sure. Is there a pecking order / invisible try out hurdle that players have to pass to be part of the mix on field? I think of Brandon Jacobs and wonder why did this guy not contribute? Personality clash with coaching staff? We find reasons not to use people to their capability.

Not sure, MM just interviewed Kyle Williams and he claimed he was getting open (this is true on many occasions as film reviewed in this thread, I believe) but he claims, "I'm getting open but I'm not getting any balls thrown my way." I wonder in this case, if Kyle is not being dialed up by the coaches (trust) or CK is avoiding him (like Baldwin) even when they are WIDE open. Now, Anthony Dixon is being considered for return duties (wow)!

The good news is that Patton will be back soon and I would expect he would take over Kyle's role as the slot WR going forward.

"I anticipate he'll be playing again," Harbaugh said of the promising rookie. "I think ahead of schedule for Quinton."

Either way, HaRoMan will NEED to start spreading the ball around better going forward and dialing up other annointed options (receivers) beyond Boldin/VD/Gore. Gore is 3rd in the league right now in rush attempts and we NEED to save him for the playoff run. We better see more Hunter/James soon. No more excuses by this coaching staff of not having a full arsenal...when you do NOT have a full arsenal, IMHO, that is when you find out most about your coaches (and other player execution; depth; talent on the bench). Look at what has happened to the Hawks (Harvin/Rice), GB, NE, ATL, DEN, etc. Nobody wants to develop players on the field IN games but in the NFL today, that is a reality. And so far, we haven't developed anyone at the WR position.

Anyone have any theories here (beyond the blanket statement of, "We just don't have any talent beyond Boldin"-statement). Many already feel Williams is miscast as an X and Z receiver (more ideal in the Y - slot). Baldwin has only been thrown too a handful of times. Nothing you can do about Patton's injury BUT like Williams, I wouldn't put him out at the X or Z either (where he got hurt, like Williams got hurt on a block in the run game). We've moved our FB, Miller out wide there quite a bit. We haven't used McDonald out wide, have we? VD has played a ton outside. Hmmm....
Originally posted by BThorn86:
Greg Roman has been one of the most creative and savvy coordinators for a few years now. I'm responding to a lot of the previous posts (there were a ton) but as a new member of the board, I heard some CRAZY talk from 49ers radio stations after you guys lost two in a row...things like: fire Harbaugh, fire Roman...overreaction like that isn't for educated fans let alone radio station hosts. But again, I just wanted to show my support for Roman. Great offensive mind!

You need to be more specific. Roman, we ALL agree, is a genius re: the run game. No doubt. But it's well documented in here that game plans and play calling are compartmentalized between about 5 or 6 different people. We have coaches that draw up part of the game plan (and call plays DURING the game) for the RZ, passing game between the 20's, the run game, situational downs and others such as Mangini and even Harbaugh himself, choosing or agreeing with the play calls. It's also been well documented the "brain farts" in critical situations and an inabiity to throw out a script that isn't working to focus on what IS working (i.e. running game against the Ravens on the last drive of the Superbowl and Indy this year). Why? According to Roman himself, we just never got back to those plays (in his script of plays in the game plan). That doesn't speak to a fluid OC "system" that plays chess well and outcoaches the DC. If the game plan is appropriate, we win. If not, we lose. It has an all-or-nothing feel to it. We've covered the "annointed receiver" ad nauseam college-like passing game here (i.e. the anti-WCO). The bottom line is it's hard to flush out the real issue with our passing game: 1) Philosophy - Bo Schemblacher offense where the passing game is merely used as an extension of the centrally-focused running game (keep defenses some what honest) 2) Trust issue with the coaches who dial up the plays for only certain players or trust with CK and his "other" receivers or 3) Poor execution by those coaches (all of them or just Roman) calling the passing plays esp. in the RZ and in critical situations or 4) Experience - lack of it for Roman and this coaching staff in real-game situations.

No doubt other OC's are getting the most out of receivers off the streets or formally, bench-warmers while we have a LONG standing history of poor development or usage at the WR position. My contention is that there is a combination of issues here and that this coaching staff relies heavily on top-notch personnel...personnel that no matter what game plan you devise, would most likely be successful 75%-85% of the time. Coaching is the difference in the end IMHO.

It's ironic in that many here felt CK, over Alex, has the "ability" to not only take us to the Superbowl but win it. I feel our coaching staff is strong enough to go far in the playoffs every year but I'm not sure if they are strong enough to win the Superbowl.
[ Edited by NCommand on Nov 7, 2013 at 6:50 AM ]
When it takes NCommand a full 20 lines in 3 paragraphs to describe how our play calling works...something has to be wrong. Coach H has overdelegated to the point of it not working properly...ie, best use of talent available....which we know is NOT happening. Why? I think NC just summarized it perfectly. THAT is why our playcalling, gamecalling is so screwed up and against elite teams, Like SEA and INDY, it shows up. We look tongue tied, handcuffed...or whatever you wish. But we don't look like a well oiled elite team using all our pieces appropriately. Coach and Trent were brilliant to make a trade for a lemon and turned AJ into lemonade with the addition of Baldwin. And then....well, there was no more then. He flat azz is not targeted, and he had caught 42 passes for KC ( of all people with their string of crappy QBs) and here has not gotten the time of day from Kap. I recall 2 or 3 passes thrown his way, one uncatchable. And that is it? That is not good coaching in a league where you now have to get draft picks and trades up and running as soon as you get them...or at least find out what they have. And HaRo has not done this, and same applies to Vance, and LMJ. That is disgraceful and frankly a waste of talent...that we are going to need in Carolina, N.O, and SEA games.

So our coaching staff....may be the only thing keeping us from winning a SB. Coach lost it in NFCC game by not watching Coughlin tell his PR to not field the ball in the wind , rain and slop. JH didn't notice this and KW muffs killed us. In SB we are on the 9 yd line with 4 plays and can't punch it in? Good grief, our coaches just handed that game to Baltimore. I hoped they would improve, but if so, I don't see it. We massacre weak teams...and have lost to two elites. Can they simplify playcalling, eg, have JH call plays? Hell, he's a 14 yr qb in the NFL and was HC at STanford. Here I believe he has just over delegated to too many guys. Cut them out. Have JH call plays. He can do it. 9 guys can't.
[ Edited by pasodoc9er on Nov 7, 2013 at 3:53 PM ]
  • FL9er
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 1,969
Is a 34 page thread really necessary on this topic? Roman is not a great play caller when it comes to passing, that is evident from nearly 3 years worth of games. Some of it is by design. Harbaugh's a meat and potatoes, ground and pound coach (think Bo Schembeckler, Mike Dikta, etc.).
Nice job so far today idiot
I hope he gets a college job
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