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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with both parties on this one. I'm very happy we got back to our identity. I hope to God that Roman was watching the Rams/Hawks game last night as a perfect blue print to beating the Hawks.

As to our passing game, no doubt, I think we'd all like it to be more diverse and consistent. Personally, I'd like it to be more QB-friendly. I think CK is off-the-charts but is hamstrung by the play calling and really, is at the mercy of HaRoMan here. Guys such as Baldwin, McDonald and Hunter should be utilized MUCH more in the passing game and s/h/b used more over the past 4 or 5 games and developing for the final stretch run after the bye week. Both Baldwin (on the edge and out in space) and McDonald (in-line and out in space) are fantastic run blockers now. Now incorporate them more into the passing game. Hunter on middle screens or flare outs would be unstoppable. Williams would never see the field save for the slot and as an outlet for CK.

I'd just like to see more pro-style progressions and outlets built into the passing game with a heavy emphasis on diversity, consistency, timing, jump balls, ad lib plays and RZ efficiency. I'd also like to see an added emphasis on the deep post or go pattern. Can you name the last time we completed or even attempted a bomb? They were mentioning in the game last night that Wilson and Baldwin missed on a deep pass a few games back so they hit the practice field the next day and practiced that play 50 times until perfected. Does CK work with Baldwin, McDonald, Hunter, Boldin, VD, etc. this way?

If we don't become more diversified and consistent and perfect this part of the offense, it WILL bite us in the ass against much better teams esp. in the playoffs. We're rolling now and obviously, haven't needed to pass much to win with the help of a stellar run game, defense and ST scoring points for us and/or setting us up nicely.

But all a defense needs to do is stop our ground game with 8 in the box and stuff the annointed receiver (Boldin and/or VD) at the LOS and we're screwed. We can't ignore this fact. We have GOT to work on the other areas to combat this and playing against our defense in practice, there should be NO excuses not to become elite and more well-rounded.

Agreed, 100%. The non use of of Baldwin, vance, LMJ, hunter(ok a bit), just seems like we aren't using all our assets. And that is nuts, when we know we will need them in N.O, against Cam , and against SEA, this time at home. Why all those guys weren't taken out for a spin against a really weak jags team....that smacks of bad coaching or bad advice...I don't know which.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I agree with both parties on this one. I'm very happy we got back to our identity. I hope to God that Roman was watching the Rams/Hawks game last night as a perfect blue print to beating the Hawks.

As to our passing game, no doubt, I think we'd all like it to be more diverse and consistent. Personally, I'd like it to be more QB-friendly. I think CK is off-the-charts but is hamstrung by the play calling and really, is at the mercy of HaRoMan here. Guys such as Baldwin, McDonald and Hunter should be utilized MUCH more in the passing game and s/h/b used more over the past 4 or 5 games and developing for the final stretch run after the bye week. Both Baldwin (on the edge and out in space) and McDonald (in-line and out in space) are fantastic run blockers now. Now incorporate them more into the passing game. Hunter on middle screens or flare outs would be unstoppable. Williams would never see the field save for the slot and as an outlet for CK.

I'd just like to see more pro-style progressions and outlets built into the passing game with a heavy emphasis on diversity, consistency, timing, jump balls, ad lib plays and RZ efficiency. I'd also like to see an added emphasis on the deep post or go pattern. Can you name the last time we completed or even attempted a bomb? They were mentioning in the game last night that Wilson and Baldwin missed on a deep pass a few games back so they hit the practice field the next day and practiced that play 50 times until perfected. Does CK work with Baldwin, McDonald, Hunter, Boldin, VD, etc. this way?

If we don't become more diversified and consistent and perfect this part of the offense, it WILL bite us in the ass against much better teams esp. in the playoffs. We're rolling now and obviously, haven't needed to pass much to win with the help of a stellar run game, defense and ST scoring points for us and/or setting us up nicely.

But all a defense needs to do is stop our ground game with 8 in the box and stuff the annointed receiver (Boldin and/or VD) at the LOS and we're screwed. We can't ignore this fact. We have GOT to work on the other areas to combat this and playing against our defense in practice, there should be NO excuses not to become elite and more well-rounded.

Agreed, 100%. The non use of of Baldwin, vance, LMJ, hunter(ok a bit), just seems like we aren't using all our assets. And that is nuts, when we know we will need them in N.O, against Cam , and against SEA, this time at home. Why all those guys weren't taken out for a spin against a really weak jags team....that smacks of bad coaching or bad advice...I don't know which.
I have some hunches as to why Baldwin/Vance aren't getting much looks. They have tried featuring Baldwin before, in the HOU game. He had two jump balls to get, versus 1 on 1 press coverage, and came down with just one throw, but he fell out of bounds. Point is, the plays were unsuccessful, 0-2. The 49ers simply want to maximize their success rate on a play and that means featuring and targeting VD/Boldin.

For those anointed receiver type plays, there is no way Vance or Baldwin will get featured for those kind of plays. Those plays come from a special bag of plays that they reach into when they need to convert. They might as well use those plays to feature their key playmakers. They actually threw Kyle two WR quick screen plays vs JAC. One fell incomplete, one went for a nice 8-9 yards. They've been running end arounds, of all things, to Kyle and Moore. So they are throwing these guys a bone here and there. As to why not experiment in the JAC game by throwing more to Vance/Baldwin/Kyle? Perhaps they just wanted to take care of business and be done by the 4th quarter instead of forcing themselves to step out of their comfort zone?

HaRo has been running more pass plays that allow for Kap to make pre-snap reads and in-play decisions to throw the ball. You can tell by how on time his throws are. 3 or 5 step drop, then throw. Whether the window is tight or not, throw it on rhythm. So now the reason why Vance and Baldwin don't get the ball is because Kap already pulled the trigger when he read VD/Boldin/Miller(?), or because Baldwin/Kyle can't get good separation. Basically, it's on Kap to get them the ball. However, he feels targeting Boldin and VD (or scrambling) are better options on these plays. I do see plays with 5 route runners more in the recent weeks. As Kap sees more of the field, he can use more of the route runners. I have no doubts regarding this. More experience means attacking all areas of the field in the passing game. More experience means quickly identifying when a target is not available and instinctively progressing on with his reads.

Check out the play at 14:40 of the 2nd quarter in the JAC game, Kap makes a read to Boldin on an in route. He had Miller running away from his LB into an open area of the field right underneath Boldin. Miller would have been the better, higher % choice on this 1st down, but Kap really likes Boldin 1 on 1, so he went there instead. It was a tight throw, incomplete. Just an example how everyone has a chance to get the ball on a play, but Kap trusts certain guys. As long as he isn't throwing INTs while forcing the ball, then it becomes a big problem.

As we watch them in the 2nd half of the season, check out how decisive Kap is with his throws. When it's a timing throw, that's usually Kap making reads and finding what he feels is his best option. If he starts to find Vance and whoever else, instead of forcing tight throws to VD/Boldin, it will be an indication of Kap growing. It's not about forcing it in order to get others involved. It's about making the plays look easy. If it's easy getting completions to VD/Boldin, then those other players will remain getting very limited targets.

So in my opinion, there are two main reasons why Baldwin/Vance//Kyle don't get targets on the regular. One is that they are not schemed to get the ball on the anointed WR type plays. We can point to HaRo for that. Second is that Kap doesn't yet see the entire field yet. He would rather go to his go to guys, and I don't blame him. As he develops and becomes more experienced, this will change.
Originally posted by thl408:

For those anointed receiver type plays, there is no way Vance or Baldwin will get featured for those kind of plays. Those plays come from a special bag of plays that they reach into when they need to convert. They might as well use those plays to feature their key playmakers.

Ok, I think this completely violates the primary principle behind most successful passing systems in the last 30 years, including (especially ) the WCO : diversity.

It's how to keep a defense honest. By throwing to a few predictable targets, the defense can guess where the ball is going more accurately and they will scheme accordingly.

SO even if the talent on the receiving corps is unequal it's important to vary the distribution equally, and scheme to that.

I think if you consider our RB's, you can clearly see how we can develop a 7 people system that can consistently put at least 4-5 adequate pass catchers on the field if we chose to to deploy them -- lmj, frank, anq, vance, vern, kh, baldw.

We don't seem to have much of a sense of that kind of rotation, I think...
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by thl408:

For those anointed receiver type plays, there is no way Vance or Baldwin will get featured for those kind of plays. Those plays come from a special bag of plays that they reach into when they need to convert. They might as well use those plays to feature their key playmakers.

Ok, I think this completely violates the primary principle behind most successful passing systems in the last 30 years, including (especially ) the WCO : diversity.

It's how to keep a defense honest. By throwing to a few predictable targets, the defense can guess where the ball is going more accurately and they will scheme accordingly.

SO even if the talent on the receiving corps is unequal it's important to vary the distribution equally, and scheme to that.

I think if you consider our RB's, you can clearly see how we can develop a 7 people system that can consistently put at least 4-5 adequate pass catchers on the field if we chose to to deploy them -- lmj, frank, anq, vance, vern, kh, baldw.

We don't seem to have much of a sense of that kind of rotation, I think...

I completely agree with the bolded. A dynamic passing attack is the most difficult to defend. Dynamic, in my definition, means that on any given pass play, there are 4 or 5 possible receivers that can get a target. NCommand has used the term anti-WCO, and on some pass play, it is exactly that. But just because it isn't WCO all the time doesn't mean it won't be an effective passing attack. This has been discussed in spurts earlier in this thread, the Kap thread, and the 'WRs are open' thread. These plays where a certain WR is schemed to get the ball works, and it really worked when teams were playing exclusive man on man coverage. HaRo basically forced teams to change it up when it was apparent VD was getting schemed to succeed on so many deep targets.

To the underlined, it appears as though HaRo is moving towards that type of dynamic passing attack while also balancing high percentage plays, because afterall, it's not all about developing Kap. They need to do what wins games.
[ Edited by thl408 on Oct 29, 2013 at 2:51 PM ]
Good discussion guys. Curious though...not that Harbaughs comments mean much but is this some insight into a potential disconnect with personnel choices?

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/629/49ers-look-at-defensive-tackle

After a 6-2 start to open the 2013 campaign, Jim Harbaugh and his coaching staff will use the bye week to evaluate the current state of the football operation. Harbaugh will also look to find more ways to feature underutilized players.

Enter LaMichael James.

The second-year running back has been active twice in 2013 and it's not sitting well with Harbaugh.

"Get LaMichael in the mix," the 49ers coach said on Tuesday. "I want to get that going. He's just too good of a football player to not be playing."

James has averaged 4.6 yards per carry in two seasons (34 carries for 156 rushing yards). James has yet to score a regular season touchdown. It's worth noting because the 49ers lead the NFL with 15 rushing touchdowns.

More on James and the 49ers can be found in today's Morning Tailgate, presented by State Farm.

John Shea of the San Francisco Chronicle examined Harbaugh's comments on James.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,226
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good discussion guys. Curious though...not that Harbaughs comments mean much but is this some insight into a potential disconnect with personnel choices?

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/629/49ers-look-at-defensive-tackle

After a 6-2 start to open the 2013 campaign, Jim Harbaugh and his coaching staff will use the bye week to evaluate the current state of the football operation. Harbaugh will also look to find more ways to feature underutilized players.

Enter LaMichael James.

The second-year running back has been active twice in 2013 and it's not sitting well with Harbaugh.

"Get LaMichael in the mix," the 49ers coach said on Tuesday. "I want to get that going. He's just too good of a football player to not be playing."

James has averaged 4.6 yards per carry in two seasons (34 carries for 156 rushing yards). James has yet to score a regular season touchdown. It's worth noting because the 49ers lead the NFL with 15 rushing touchdowns.

More on James and the 49ers can be found in today's Morning Tailgate, presented by State Farm.

John Shea of the San Francisco Chronicle examined Harbaugh's comments on James.
the best thing would be if JH stops mentioning kyle williams,... when the coach stops talking about players, that means they are soon to be gone
Originally posted by NCommand:
Good discussion guys. Curious though...not that Harbaughs comments mean much but is this some insight into a potential disconnect with personnel choices?

http://espn.go.com/blog/san-francisco-49ers/post/_/id/629/49ers-look-at-defensive-tackle

After a 6-2 start to open the 2013 campaign, Jim Harbaugh and his coaching staff will use the bye week to evaluate the current state of the football operation. Harbaugh will also look to find more ways to feature underutilized players.

Enter LaMichael James.

The second-year running back has been active twice in 2013 and it's not sitting well with Harbaugh.

"Get LaMichael in the mix," the 49ers coach said on Tuesday. "I want to get that going. He's just too good of a football player to not be playing."

James has averaged 4.6 yards per carry in two seasons (34 carries for 156 rushing yards). James has yet to score a regular season touchdown. It's worth noting because the 49ers lead the NFL with 15 rushing touchdowns.

More on James and the 49ers can be found in today's Morning Tailgate, presented by State Farm.

John Shea of the San Francisco Chronicle examined Harbaugh's comments on James.

does the coach not decide the active/inactive list for gamedays?
Originally posted by swayze:
does the coach not decide the active/inactive list for gamedays?


Doesn't sound like it. SOunds like it's OC & DC.
Originally posted by brodiebluebanaszak:
Originally posted by swayze:
does the coach not decide the active/inactive list for gamedays?


Doesn't sound like it. SOunds like it's OC & DC.

I guess that makes sense, they draw up the gameplan and decide which pieces to use to run it...
Loved reading this quote from Greg Roman in regards to getting Manningham and Crabtree back.

"We're going to remain humble and hungry," Roman said. "As these men join us, it'll give us the ability to maybe open things up a little bit here or there. We're really excited."

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Greg-Roman-Prepares-for-Complete-Arsenal/6ab34c5b-90e1-4e8f-a2f1-51d62a478e47

Our offense is going to be so much more explosive when these guys get healthy
Players, draft pick aren't any good if you don't use them.
I just hope that when Manningham and Crabtree are back Roman doesn't go full potato and forget our ground game.
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,226
Originally posted by Dsoto87:
I just hope that when Manningham and Crabtree are back Roman doesn't go full potato and forget our ground game.

well his history would indicate,, ahh forget it
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Loved reading this quote from Greg Roman in regards to getting Manningham and Crabtree back.

"We're going to remain humble and hungry," Roman said. "As these men join us, it'll give us the ability to maybe open things up a little bit here or there. We're really excited."

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Greg-Roman-Prepares-for-Complete-Arsenal/6ab34c5b-90e1-4e8f-a2f1-51d62a478e47

Our offense is going to be so much more explosive when these guys get healthy

The bigger question is WHY do you have to have Manningham, Crabtree, Boldin, Gore and VD to be able to open up the offense more? With the type of college offense we run here, there is no doubt he could have SCHEMED McDonald more (in VD's role), Hunter (in Gore's), Baldwin (in Crabtree's), Williams (in Manninghams slot role), etc. To me, this is further evidence that this is NOT a matter of trust between CK and his receivers as it is the coaching staff's issue with trust as they are the ones who dial up the plays to be executed by CK (and the receivers).

It's understandable to trust more Gore, VD and Boldin but through week 9? You have to scheme other players along and use some forsight for the future. Nobody is saying we should "feature" Baldwin, McDonald or Hunter, but just build up their skill set in the passing game and get 'em rolling for when we might truly need them later down the road. To me, you'd think after the 3 big losses (Seattle x2 and Indy), this is the lesson the coaching staff should have learned. Guess not...
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 31, 2013 at 10:01 AM ]
Originally posted by goodthings19:
Loved reading this quote from Greg Roman in regards to getting Manningham and Crabtree back.

"We're going to remain humble and hungry," Roman said. "As these men join us, it'll give us the ability to maybe open things up a little bit here or there. We're really excited."

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Greg-Roman-Prepares-for-Complete-Arsenal/6ab34c5b-90e1-4e8f-a2f1-51d62a478e47

Our offense is going to be so much more explosive when these guys get healthy

You know Roman may finally come to a point where he has too many weapons. With Crabtree, Mario, VD, Boldin, who's going to be the first read!? I hope Crabs wont go dez bryant on the sidelines if all of a sudden Boldin gets more catches than him!