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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by thl408:
Gotcha. I didn't mean to imply that you specifically thought the 49ers passing attack was limited in what they did. Just that some posters have alluded to the fact that no other receivers besides Boldin and VD get play calls designed specifically to get them the ball and that it makes the passing game seem like it is not reaching its full potential. While some of this may be true, the passing attack is very near its potential, at this stage in Kap's career. It's not like Baldwin, Kyle, and Vance are getting huge separation, but no looks from Kap. The 49ers are increasing their chances that a pass play succeeds by throwing it to the players that are most likely to make it a success. This is good practice considering the limited number of pass plays being called over the past few weeks. As long as Kap isn't throwing into double coverage (which he did on a 2nd quarter pass to VD that was nearly picked off), it's okay to keep throwing to VD and Boldin. Kap's YPA proves that this is okay.

Totally agree on the underlined. Give Kap one hot read just so there is a safety valve in case the blitz isn't picked up or the downfield options are covered. Something else besides scrambling for his life.

I wouldn't put much stock into what coaches say when it comes to who they should get going in the offensive game plan. To me, it's coach's speak to misdirect the opposition. Why say,"Naw, no plans for Vance to get involved. Opposing DCs can just disregard him."

my thing is, he has proven he can go through progressions, so give him the options.

he's #1 when in passing when you blitz him and he's not unlike any other qb making reads before the play and knowing who he is going to when the ball is snapped. i always laugh at that criticism. when peyton or rogers or brees makes the calls at the line snap the ball and within 2 seconds have it out and to the person they knew would be open there is no complaint about staring down a wr or being too predictable. kap does the same exact thing.

and i get the scheming aspect. i just think if you give him the safety net to give it to a macdonald or badlwin AFTER the 1 or 2 option isn't open while he's buying time, there's really no way you can stop it especially after you take into account he's using his legs again. which he should have never stopped.

he is not run dependent and i think he let that stigma get to him. he need look no further than andrew luck who gets praised every run he makes.
so take his own advice and ignore the "haters" and be who he is supposed to be.
Originally posted by verb1der:
I get ur point. You have a higher expectations than I do on certain aspects of the O. And I do agree about getting Hunter more touches, esp when you have a 24 pt lead!

its right there. we have all the weapons we need currently and more coming back. this is why i was against any and all trade ideas because we don't utilize the people who do have now.

the 1 glaring thing i will not let go is kyle williams getting the bulk of the snaps.

kap has already thrown jump balls and tight coverage passes to baldwin in the few appearances he's had

and refuses to throw those passes to kyle williams for good reason.

i don't see how the coaches can look at the tape and say kyle should be #2 wr at any point. baldwin has played better and made tough catches and kyle can't

there is a reason kap generally doesn't throw it to kyle williams unless he has 5 yards of separation, because he doesn't trust him to make a play, like he trusts boldin, like he trusts davis, like he immediately trusted crab, like he trusts manningham.

he even trusts macdonald, there's no way he throws that pass in the red zone that was tipped to williams, but he had no issue throwing it to vance.

he even throws it to bruce miller in tight spots and situations.

that should speak volumes but it doesn't and i don't kow why
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by thl408:
Gotcha. I didn't mean to imply that you specifically thought the 49ers passing attack was limited in what they did. Just that some posters have alluded to the fact that no other receivers besides Boldin and VD get play calls designed specifically to get them the ball and that it makes the passing game seem like it is not reaching its full potential. While some of this may be true, the passing attack is very near its potential, at this stage in Kap's career. It's not like Baldwin, Kyle, and Vance are getting huge separation, but no looks from Kap. The 49ers are increasing their chances that a pass play succeeds by throwing it to the players that are most likely to make it a success. This is good practice considering the limited number of pass plays being called over the past few weeks. As long as Kap isn't throwing into double coverage (which he did on a 2nd quarter pass to VD that was nearly picked off), it's okay to keep throwing to VD and Boldin. Kap's YPA proves that this is okay.

Totally agree on the underlined. Give Kap one hot read just so there is a safety valve in case the blitz isn't picked up or the downfield options are covered. Something else besides scrambling for his life.

I wouldn't put much stock into what coaches say when it comes to who they should get going in the offensive game plan. To me, it's coach's speak to misdirect the opposition. Why say,"Naw, no plans for Vance to get involved. Opposing DCs can just disregard him."

my thing is, he has proven he can go through progressions, so give him the options.

he's #1 when in passing when you blitz him and he's not unlike any other qb making reads before the play and knowing who he is going to when the ball is snapped. i always laugh at that criticism. when peyton or rogers or brees makes the calls at the line snap the ball and within 2 seconds have it out and to the person they knew would be open there is no complaint about staring down a wr or being too predictable. kap does the same exact thing.

and i get the scheming aspect. i just think if you give him the safety net to give it to a macdonald or badlwin AFTER the 1 or 2 option isn't open while he's buying time, there's really no way you can stop it especially after you take into account he's using his legs again. which he should have never stopped.

he is not run dependent and i think he let that stigma get to him. he need look no further than andrew luck who gets praised every run he makes.
so take his own advice and ignore the "haters" and be who he is supposed to be.

Interesting (bolded statement). This is where we may differ in our assessment of Kap. I do not think he is capable of progressing through his reads quick enough, once the ball is snapped. My take is that he is not a one read QB, but he does have a problem locking onto a receiver for too long before moving on to the next. And that is what makes him unable to be a progression read based QB. This is just my personal take on him, at this stage in his development. This is also the reason I commend HaRo for scheming a WR to get open as much as they do. It's not every play, but it is almost every 3rd down and long play.
Originally posted by thl408:
Interesting (bolded statement). This is where we may differ in our assessment of Kap. I do not think he is capable of progressing through his reads quick enough, once the ball is snapped. My take is that he is not a one read QB, but he does have a problem locking onto a receiver for too long before moving on to the next. And that is what makes him unable to be a progression read based QB. This is just my personal take on him, at this stage in his development. This is also the reason I commend HaRo for scheming a WR to get open as much as they do. It's not every play, but it is almost every 3rd down and long play.

i think he's more than capable of doing it he's done it before he just doesn't get to do it enough. reps are the key to everything. in every aspect everyone talks about getting the reps.

he needs those reps in practice and game situation in order to do those things. all of the qb's who do it consistently, have to do it consistently.

i don't think the load is too much for kap.

in essence our offense should be power run, play action pass, dynamic deep throws, nice intermediate routes, screen plays and scrambling to keep drives going.

that's not too much to ask is it?
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
Originally posted by thl408:
Interesting (bolded statement). This is where we may differ in our assessment of Kap. I do not think he is capable of progressing through his reads quick enough, once the ball is snapped. My take is that he is not a one read QB, but he does have a problem locking onto a receiver for too long before moving on to the next. And that is what makes him unable to be a progression read based QB. This is just my personal take on him, at this stage in his development. This is also the reason I commend HaRo for scheming a WR to get open as much as they do. It's not every play, but it is almost every 3rd down and long play.

i think he's more than capable of doing it he's done it before he just doesn't get to do it enough. reps are the key to everything. in every aspect everyone talks about getting the reps.

he needs those reps in practice and game situation in order to do those things. all of the qb's who do it consistently, have to do it consistently.

i don't think the load is too much for kap.

in essence our offense should be power run, play action pass, dynamic deep throws, nice intermediate routes, screen plays and scrambling to keep drives going.

that's not too much to ask is it?

Agreed on the bolded. There is a delicate balance at play here. Does Harbaugh give Kap more than he can handle for learning purposes, while grimacing through the growing pains? Or does he focus on winning and limit what he asks out of his QB? That offense you described would be very powerful and I do hope that HaRo works towards that goal while considering the learning curve that Kap must endure to get there.
Originally posted by thl408:
Agreed on the bolded. There is a delicate balance at play here. Does Harbaugh give Kap more than he can handle for learning purposes, while grimacing through the growing pains? Or does he focus on winning and limit what he asks out of his QB? That offense you described would be very powerful and I do hope that HaRo works towards that goal while considering the learning curve that Kap must endure to get there.

you have to let him be him. we can do all of that without giving him "too much" there won't be any growing pains if we implement all of that. call power run plays like we do. call the play action passes like he did his 1st career start, teams are basically playing us like the bears did in his 1st start, pressing the wr's and not playing much zone.

throw screen passes, he threw a perfect mini screen to gore out of the backfield so its a matter of calling these plays. he can look deep and sometimes he throws it deep and into coverage because that is the only receiving option, when we see a play like that we go why did he throw? well because there were no other choices. see what i'm saying?

and when they plan man and everyone is covered, scramble for the 1st down and get down.

that's basically tailor made to have him live up to what we think he can and will be. and it's not even an overload of information he has to process.

as our wr core gets back, we'll see the passing open up more as far as options. so im not worried about that too much.

i just want kyle out.

because baldwin will be far more useful with crab and manningham back.

and i want hunter to get more touches in space. he's a home run hitter

and like they're doing, let vance play the delanie role and not have bruce miller do it. let bruce do what he does best, block for gore as they break the will of the opposing team's defense.

literally can't stop us, we just stop ourselves (those 2 games)
Reposting here as well:

Just to confirm, I rewatched through the 3Q (good enough sample size). Last week, we had 21 passes in the 1st half and 100% of those passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds.

This week, through the 3Q, 13 of the 17 (76%) passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds. It might be higher as 2 of the 4 second-read passes may have been "look offs" but I counted them b/c they didn't appear to go to the annointed receiver.

To reiterate, all passes are under 3 seconds. Of note, we are 1 of only 2 teams that average less than 200 yards passing a game (ranked 31st) and that includes the Green Bay game where CK passed for 412 yards. This isn't a criticism but just pointing this out.

Additional Observations:
I could not believe how much more CK took snaps from under Center. In fact, through 3Q, I counted 30 snaps! Now, he only passed out of this formation a handful of times (need to be careful with this going forward). Also, there was one notable check at the LOS. CK "clearly" checked out of a running play (killed it) where he was originally under Center to a passing play where he passed from shotgun. It worked! So perhaps, this trend of starting him under Center more is a new wrinkle by which we'll build off of (pass out of more) and get him more familiar with checks at the LOS (and changing the plays). Running formations and him under Center more still made it very easy for me to see if it was a run or pass. I also noticed that both Gore and Miller flared out more in the passing game and "appeared" to be outlets for CK. Finally, if you rewatch the game, I highly recommend just honing in on Bruce Miller...where he goes, the ball goes. Roman needs to be very careful with this as well. Good teams with better personnel are going to stifle these trends. Also, the trend of Boldin/VD-only remains...another 9 catches between the two and 4 more collectively for everyone else. Again, if you're not Gore, VD or Boldin, you might as well not even suit up (although we need you for the decoy/blocking game).
Originally posted by NCommand:
Reposting here as well:

Just to confirm, I rewatched through the 3Q (good enough sample size). Last week, we had 21 passes in the 1st half and 100% of those passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds.

This week, through the 3Q, 13 of the 17 (76%) passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds. It might be higher as 2 of the 4 second-read passes may have been "look offs" but I counted them b/c they didn't appear to go to the annointed receiver.

To reiterate, all passes are under 3 seconds. Of note, we are 1 of only 2 teams that average less than 200 yards passing a game (ranked 31st) and that includes the Green Bay game where CK passed for 412 yards. This isn't a criticism but just pointing this out.

Additional Observations:
I could not believe how much more CK took snaps from under Center. In fact, through 3Q, I counted 30 snaps! Now, he only passed out of this formation a handful of times (need to be careful with this going forward). Also, there was one notable check at the LOS. CK "clearly" checked out of a running play (killed it) where he was originally under Center to a passing play where he passed from shotgun. It worked! So perhaps, this trend of starting him under Center more is a new wrinkle by which we'll build off of (pass out of more) and get him more familiar with checks at the LOS (and changing the plays). Running formations and him under Center more still made it very easy for me to see if it was a run or pass. I also noticed that both Gore and Miller flared out more in the passing game and "appeared" to be outlets for CK. Finally, if you rewatch the game, I highly recommend just honing in on Bruce Miller...where he goes, the ball goes. Roman needs to be very careful with this as well. Good teams with better personnel are going to stifle these trends. Also, the trend of Boldin/VD-only remains...another 9 catches between the two and 4 more collectively for everyone else. Again, if you're not Gore, VD or Boldin, you might as well not even suit up (although we need you for the decoy/blocking game).

which is a problem with the coaches and their creativity and not kap. he is doing what they're asking him to do. and they're hindering his growth imo.
we could and should be so much more dynamic. give him options, use the talent. there's no excuse not to no matter how you slice it
Kyle Williams 42 snaps

there is no reason for this.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
which is a problem with the coaches and their creativity and not kap. he is doing what they're asking him to do. and they're hindering his growth imo.
we could and should be so much more dynamic. give him options, use the talent. there's no excuse not to no matter how you slice it

Agreed...still not fully sure if this is a result of the type of offense we run (college) or if this is a direct result of CK and Roman still developing him in, essentially, year 1. Most really exotic offense, like the WCO, take a good 3 years to install/master. I keep hearing how complex our offensive playbook is but when you (currently) watch our passing plays, they are pretty basic and most are run out of running formations. So which came first, the chicken or the egg?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Reposting here as well:

Just to confirm, I rewatched through the 3Q (good enough sample size). Last week, we had 21 passes in the 1st half and 100% of those passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds.

This week, through the 3Q, 13 of the 17 (76%) passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds. It might be higher as 2 of the 4 second-read passes may have been "look offs" but I counted them b/c they didn't appear to go to the annointed receiver.

To reiterate, all passes are under 3 seconds. Of note, we are 1 of only 2 teams that average less than 200 yards passing a game (ranked 31st) and that includes the Green Bay game where CK passed for 412 yards. This isn't a criticism but just pointing this out.

Additional Observations:
I could not believe how much more CK took snaps from under Center. In fact, through 3Q, I counted 30 snaps! Now, he only passed out of this formation a handful of times (need to be careful with this going forward). Also, there was one notable check at the LOS. CK "clearly" checked out of a running play (killed it) where he was originally under Center to a passing play where he passed from shotgun. It worked! So perhaps, this trend of starting him under Center more is a new wrinkle by which we'll build off of (pass out of more) and get him more familiar with checks at the LOS (and changing the plays). Running formations and him under Center more still made it very easy for me to see if it was a run or pass. I also noticed that both Gore and Miller flared out more in the passing game and "appeared" to be outlets for CK. Finally, if you rewatch the game, I highly recommend just honing in on Bruce Miller...where he goes, the ball goes. Roman needs to be very careful with this as well. Good teams with better personnel are going to stifle these trends. Also, the trend of Boldin/VD-only remains...another 9 catches between the two and 4 more collectively for everyone else. Again, if you're not Gore, VD or Boldin, you might as well not even suit up (although we need you for the decoy/blocking game).

Thanks for the breakdown. I haven't had a chance to watch the game in that great a detail, but would like to get around to it. Like you said, I wouldn't put much stock into the 4th quarter. That was 'garbage time' already.

It's difficult to determine on a pass play in which Kap drops back and pulls the trigger in under 3 seconds whether the pre-determination of the primary pass target was dictated by Kap at the LOS, or by the play and how it was drawn up. When you stated that "13 of the 17 (76%) passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds", does that speak more to the play design (having an annointed receiver), or to Kap's ability to make a pre-snap read and decisiveness on where to go with the ball? Either way, if he's pulling the trigger under 3 seconds, on that many pass plays, it tells me that passing game is getting better, and that Kap is getting better.

Regarding Bruce Miller, Roman used this 'tell' to run a great misdirection play. Check out the play at 9:22 of the 3rd quarter. Miller, and everyone else in red goes in one direction while VD goes in the other direction for a converted 3rd down. However, when it comes to running plays, ignore any pulling guards or what the TEs do. Miller will indeed take you to the ball.

The 49ers finally passed to a RB in the flat, something I've been clamoring for the last few weeks. However, it was one of those annointed receiver type plays (3Q 3:26), where Gore was the only pass target and everyone else was blocking for him. Got about 30 yards on the play though.
Originally posted by thl408:
Thanks for the breakdown. I haven't had a chance to watch the game in that great a detail, but would like to get around to it. Like you said, I wouldn't put much stock into the 4th quarter. That was 'garbage time' already.

It's difficult to determine on a pass play in which Kap drops back and pulls the trigger in under 3 seconds whether the pre-determination of the primary pass target was dictated by Kap at the LOS, or by the play and how it was drawn up. When you stated that "13 of the 17 (76%) passes were pre-determined, one-read passes under 3 seconds", does that speak more to the play design (having an annointed receiver), or to Kap's ability to make a pre-snap read and decisiveness on where to go with the ball? Either way, if he's pulling the trigger under 3 seconds, on that many pass plays, it tells me that passing game is getting better, and that Kap is getting better.

Regarding Bruce Miller, Roman used this 'tell' to run a great misdirection play. Check out the play at 9:22 of the 3rd quarter. Miller, and everyone else in red goes in one direction while VD goes in the other direction for a converted 3rd down. However, when it comes to running plays, ignore any pulling guards or what the TEs do. Miller will indeed take you to the ball.

The 49ers finally passed to a RB in the flat, something I've been clamoring for the last few weeks. However, it was one of those annointed receiver type plays (3Q 3:26), where Gore was the only pass target and everyone else was blocking for him. Got about 30 yards on the play though.

You know, you bring up a very good point. The check-out play I highlighted earlier b/c you can literally hear him kill the play, then you could see him come out from under center, into a shot gun and then pass. Prior to that, to me, just by the formation and that they were running it a lot when CK was under center (at least this game), I could tell it was going to originally be a run.

He's a pretty vocal QB as well but I don't get the impression he's changing out of plays a whole lot and I'm not even sure he's given that freedom fully yet. Maybe when you rewatch you can note this better than I did. Given that passes are made in under 3 seconds, to me, actually is more evidence the passing plays are pre-determined (designed to hit under 3 seconds) and have little to do with CK at all...after 16 games, he's not going to be given the freedom Brady/Brees/Manning is to change entire plays at the LOS (even multiple times); plus HaRoMan are probably control freaks. LOL

I forgot to note the scariest part of these passes...I counted FIVE times he could have been intercepted (of his 17 passing attempts). I think that too is more evidence of him forcing it into the annointed receiver (trying to do his job, so-to-speak)....double, triple coverage. Some of these are completions as well (important to note when his accuracy is "on"). But a good defense is going to pick these off and that is what scares me.

If we play a tough physical jamming secondary at the LOS that makes it even tighter for CK, he may still pull that trigger and this time, they will be INT's (not incompletions or completions). But to your point, the fact that many of these passing plays ARE being completed under 3 seconds means VD or Boldin are beating their 1on1's AND often times, the cast around them are doing their part as well (misdirections forcing blown coverages, blocking for them, occupying DB's, etc.).

That pass to Gore in the flat, like you noted, was clearly a scheme pass where Gore caught it in stride and Miller was already blocking that edge for him. Beautiful. I saw a few times where Gore and Miller also flared out of the backfield and sat down behind the NT/DL and many times, they were wide open in case CK had to come back to them. This is a good sign that they weren't forced to stay in and pass block. Ironically, this is how we ended up beating Seattle the last time we beat them; we gave up on the run and longer passes d/t them run blitzing and winning those battles so we just dropped Gore and Walker in that area and slowly finished it off with a TD to Walker.

Yeah, that misdirection was a thing of beauty. That is the neat part of our offense...so many plays can be run out of the same exact formation.
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 21, 2013 at 4:29 PM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...still not fully sure if this is a result of the type of offense we run (college) or if this is a direct result of CK and Roman still developing him in, essentially, year 1. Most really exotic offense, like the WCO, take a good 3 years to install/master. I keep hearing how complex our offensive playbook is but when you (currently) watch our passing plays, they are pretty basic and most are run out of running formations. So which came first, the chicken or the egg?

have to find a balance. work on the passing game but keep the running just like it is. run with power and with a full back with frank gore that is how he works best period.

you can use hunter with a single back.

and just trust that kap will make the right decisions is all i can say. when he throws a pass, i auto assume the persons is open and it will be completed. and he hasn't really let me down in that regard, the throws might not be all crisp and placement might be bad at times however the people are open he's seeing it and getting it there.

once he gets into a passing rhythm which EVERY qb needs to do we see how sharp and unstoppable he is.

stick to the run mix it up in the pass be dynamic look for the deep but go ahead and settle short. if they continue to play man run it for the 1st down and break their backs.

real easy to do against anyone.
Originally posted by NCommand:
You know, you bring up a very good point. The check-out play I highlighted earlier b/c you can literally hear him kill the play, then you could see him come out from under center, into a shot gun and then pass. Prior to that, to me, just by the formation and that they were running it a lot when CK was under center (at least this game), I could tell it was going to originally be a run.

He's a pretty vocal QB as well but I don't get the impression he's changing out of plays a whole lot and I'm not even sure he's given that freedom fully yet. Maybe when you rewatch you can note this better than I did. Given that passes are made in under 3 seconds, to me, actually is more evidence the passing plays are pre-determined (designed to hit under 3 seconds) and have little to do with CK at all...after 16 games, he's not going to be given the freedom Brady/Brees/Manning is to change entire plays at the LOS (even multiple times); plus HaRoMan are probably control freaks. LOL

I forgot to note the scariest part of these passes...I counted FIVE times he could have been intercepted (of his 17 passing attempts). I think that too is more evidence of him forcing it into the annointed receiver (trying to do his job, so-to-speak)....double, triple coverage. Some of these are completions as well (important to note when his accuracy is "on"). But a good defense is going to pick these off and that is what scares me.

If we play a tough physical jamming secondary at the LOS that makes it even tighter for CK, he may still pull that trigger and this time, they will be INT's (not incompletions or completions). But to your point, the fact that many of these passing plays ARE being completed under 3 seconds means VD or Boldin are beating their 1on1's AND often times, the cast around them are doing their part as well (misdirections forcing blown coverages, blocking for them, occupying DB's, etc.).

That pass to Gore in the flat, like you noted, was clearly a scheme pass where Gore caught it in stride and Miller was already blocking that edge for him. Beautiful. I saw a few times where Gore and Miller also flared out of the backfield and sat down behind the NT/DL and many times, they were wide open in case CK had to come back to them. This is a good sign that they weren't forced to stay in and pass block. Ironically, this is how we ended up beating Seattle the last time we beat them; we gave up on the run and longer passes d/t them run blitzing and winning those battles so we just dropped Gore and Walker in that area and slowly finished it off with a TD to Walker.

Yeah, that misdirection was a thing of beauty. That is the neat part of our offense...so many plays can be run out of the same exact formation.

I think you're underestimating what he's doing.
All the top qb's in the nfl make the read before snap know where they're going and get it out in a hurry. all the elite guys, rogers, manning, brees, they do this. so yes predetermined is not a bad thing imo.

the problem is we need to scheme plays that account for when a predetermined read doesn't become open. he see's a match up he likes he goes to it. when vernon or mac are 1 on 1 he goes to them.

we need to give him the 2nd and 3rd options, think about how many times does he even have a wr or running back to check down to? not often and usually after the 3 or 4 second ideal pass blocking window then someone like gore or miller slips out.

it's getting there. you can see it turning. keep the running game powerful and then connect on big passing plays.


also it cannot be stressed enough that he has not played with the wr he was most comfortable with last season at any point this season.

he has build it with boldin. he just doesn't trust kyle.

but when he has boldin and davis and crabtree and manningham to throw to? i think a lot of tunes will change.

then spreading it around won't be an issue. it'll be how come he hasn't done this all year, ignoring the obvious answer.

to put it into perspective

how is luck going to do without wayne now?

how would romo do without dez?


take all of those players away from their teams for the entire season so far, what do their stats look like?

see what i mean?
  • MarkD
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No idea. I am hetero.