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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by Geeked:
It just makes me sick that the defense is calling the 49ers' play 20 seconds before Roman sends it in.

you know its sad when gore and ck change plays in the huddle,,, and they work. Then we get romans line of b******t about how we are going to "explode",, the only thing that explodes is my head when we keep calling the same stupid plays over and over which do not work. and god damn JH is a f**king enabler of that fat maid rite f**k roman cuz he just lets him go off down retard road

My biggest issue is that our offense has never really evolved or improved under HaRoman. Three years and two different QBs later - still embarrassingly bad at getting plays called on time, still can't throw touchdowns in the red zone, same unimaginative, abysmal passing attack that no defense in the NFL would respect (sad with the weapons have in Crabtree, Vernon, and Boldin). Predictable play calling and ancient offensive philosophy with few new wrinkles extremely limits what we can do offensively. Thank God for our defense because this is a middle of the pack team at best without the elite play of our defense keeping us in games.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by NCommand:
I do have to say, given his media reputation, it is REALLY shocking he only got one token college interview. It's like the White Rooney Rule.
he is waiting for Jh to finish out his contract so he can just slip into the head coaches job. that would just be f**king lovely

I'm starting to wonder if this offense is Roman's or Harbaughs. Regardless, I think if Harbs leaves Tomsula takes over .... interesting. As long as we keep our defensive coaches and bring in a STRONG OC who can recruit a great coaching staff, I'm down.

Pretty sure it's Harbaugh's. What offensive minded HC doesn't at the very least have his fingerprints on the offensive system the team will run? The 49ers offense under HaRoman is practically Stanford continued. And at the end of the day, JH is the one in Kap's ear and has the final say on the calls ...this offense is just as much Harbaugh's as it is Roman's.

It'd be interesting if Harbs left and Tomsula or even Fangio took over. I'd be cool with it as long as like you said, we keep our defensive coaches intact and we'd hire a good OC that will recruit great coaches.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
Originally posted by Constantine:
YES... Just like players, they get better with experience, and he'll continue getting better as he learns more as players do.

Good one... His playcalling handicapped this offense once again and shows no signs of changing going forward
good god this is, sad to say, the truth here lets call for a pass play that gets us three yards when we need 9, here lets call a nice pass to our rookie tight end in the playoffs and then never go back to that again, here lets keep running gore against 9 men, and for gods sake why the f**k would we ever fake the run to set up the pass

Well cciowa ....

I think this is Harb's fault. The offense won't get better until the 49ers change the way plays are called. I think NCommand posted it some posts back. I goes a little something like this:

1) Play is thought of ...
2) Roman picks and then polls all the coaches to see what they think
3) Play gets called into Harbs who decides if the polled play is good or not
4) Harbs calls that into Kap

I used to wonder why it took so long to call plays at times. I'm will to bet the farm the times that is takes much too long to call a play, we're following this stupid structure.

One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.
[ Edited by WINiner on Feb 23, 2014 at 8:58 AM ]
Originally posted by WINiner:
One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.

OK this is interesting thanks. What's the plan to change this?
[ Edited by brodiebluebanaszak on Feb 23, 2014 at 9:26 AM ]
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 25,208
Originally posted by NeonNiner:
Pretty sure it's Harbaugh's. What offensive minded HC doesn't at the very least have his fingerprints on the offensive system the team will run? The 49ers offense under HaRoman is practically Stanford continued. And at the end of the day, JH is the one in Kap's ear and has the final say on the calls ...this offense is just as much Harbaugh's as it is Roman's.

It'd be interesting if Harbs left and Tomsula or even Fangio took over. I'd be cool with it as long as like you said, we keep our defensive coaches intact and we'd hire a good OC that will recruit great coaches.
if Jh leaves,, we will really see who the real niner fans are around here. if Jh goes nothing changes with me, I will still be a fan , even if roman stays If Jh leaves for whatever reason, you kick and scream for a day, then realize you can not to anything about and you just get ready for the next year
Originally posted by WINiner:
One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.

Good synopsis! Thanks. Your conjecture regarding Harbaugh's insistance in keeping with the flawed system makes sense for the "high maintenance" label. However, this issue is largely QB/experience related. The more time Kaepernick is in the system the less time it will take him to digest and express the play in the huddle. It will also be more possible for him to run a no huddle with several plays in mind and using hand signals.

The complexity of a system is a double edged sword--makes the offense seem uncertain and lacking fluidity, but will eventually smooth out and become less predictable if the QB is as smart as a P Manning. Kaepernick is a sharp guy and I really believe he will continue to own the offense down the road. Still early in the development of the system.

I can also see a war for power between Baalke and Harbaugh on all kinds of levels...including draft picks and assistant coaches. Was Mangini a Harbaugh hire? Or did Baalke buy some insurance in case Harbaugh plays hardball? Jenkins gives Harbaugh some leverage in the draft this year as it was almost certain to have been a Baalke/sealed envelope pick.
Originally posted by WINiner:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by sincalfaithful:
Originally posted by Constantine:
YES... Just like players, they get better with experience, and he'll continue getting better as he learns more as players do.

Good one... His playcalling handicapped this offense once again and shows no signs of changing going forward
good god this is, sad to say, the truth here lets call for a pass play that gets us three yards when we need 9, here lets call a nice pass to our rookie tight end in the playoffs and then never go back to that again, here lets keep running gore against 9 men, and for gods sake why the f**k would we ever fake the run to set up the pass

Well cciowa ....

I think this is Harb's fault. The offense won't get better until the 49ers change the way plays are called. I think NCommand posted it some posts back. I goes a little something like this:

1) Play is thought of ...
2) Roman picks and then polls all the coaches to see what they think
3) Play gets called into Harbs who decides if the polled play is good or not
4) Harbs calls that into Kap

I used to wonder why it took so long to call plays at times. I'm will to bet the farm the times that is takes much too long to call a play, we're following this stupid structure.

One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.

I think ownership/management - think Baalke already believes and probably is telling Jed - this team should have already won two titles maybe three. We can certainly see the talent is there .... Baalke knows like many other football managing vets, teams rarely get windows where both sides of the ball are so talented at once with a good group of coaching. Another place I'm willing to bet the farm. If Baalke cleans up in the draft and does well in keeping some vets and we still don't get to the big game and perform offensively the same, making the same mistakes, along with the "wearing thin" I've read, Harbaugh will be replaced.

I'm not at all worried about the replacement. Every good football coach worth his salt would LOVE to come to SF - a hungry talented, well stocked team with enough talent to win the Super Bowl now, entering a new stadium. We'll have our choice of coaches - both vets and new comers. It won't be hard to build a staff either.
Originally posted by WINiner:
One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.

Great insight dude.
Damn the browns were asking about other coaches... fuuu we shouldve asked for a gordon for roman deal
Originally posted by WINiner:
One of the Matts wrote about this, and yes it is essentially what you posted. There is actually 2 plays called, a run play by Roman, a pass play by Morton. Roman polls the coaches as to which is better suited for the situation and then both are called down to Harbs with the polled play emphasized, Harbs then either vetos or sends them in and then the QB has about 13-15 seconds to get all the required and designed shifts to make the presnap read to determine which play to stick with. If the read results in changing the play the ball is being hiked at 1 second or less, if Harbaugh hasn't called a timeout already.

It is a ridiculous system and is why we have been the #1 worst team in the NFL in pre-snap penalties and timeouts to avoid those penalties every year under Harbaugh/Roman. This system is my number one reason for wanting a new OC brought in. This system is also the root for the developing rift between Harbaugh and leadership. It lends to a slow plodding offense. It does not allow for a face paced up tempo style of offense. It does not allow for any flow or feel for the game to develop. It is an awful awful system from which to develop a young QB because of the lack of rythem and flow.

I think ownership/management want that system to change and Harbaugh refuses and that's where the problems lie with managment. On one hand I love Harbaugh as our HC, on the other I think he is partly at fault for our inability to be a potent scoring offense.
Taking the clock down to the last second always makes it very easy for the defense to get a good jump. ADavis has a hard enough time as it is against speed rushers without them not having to guess on when to go.

There was a time when this team needed the stability of a conservative offense but those days came and went when the team took the next step and faced tougher competition in the playoffs. Harbaugh gambled that the offense was good enough as is and lost. After last year he should have made the changes either to open up the offense or change the OC.
[ Edited by Ronnie49Lott on Feb 23, 2014 at 8:11 PM ]
Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
Taking the clock down to the last second always makes it very easy for the defense to get a good jump. ADavis has a hard enough time as it is against speed rushers without them not having to guess on when to go.

There was a time when this team needed the stability of a conservative offense but those days came and went when the team took the next step and faced tougher competition in the playoffs. Harbaugh gambled that the offense was good enough as is and lost. After last year he should have made the changes either to open up the offense or change the OC.

I really don't get his infatuation with this odd system, if memory serves he ran something similar at Stanford.

The offense and it's inconsistency is the problem with this team. Kap needs to play better and Roman needs to call better and Harbaugh needs to manage better.
Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
Taking the clock down to the last second always makes it very easy for the defense to get a good jump. ADavis has a hard enough time as it is against speed rushers without them not having to guess on when to go.

There was a time when this team needed the stability of a conservative offense but those days came and went when the team took the next step and faced tougher competition in the playoffs. Harbaugh gambled that the offense was good enough as is and lost. After last year he should have made the changes either to open up the offense or change the OC.

This is a very very good point. Not only do the DE's and blitzing LB's know when to fire off, they are also less likely to jump off sides. We basially lost d/t a jumping-off sides penalty/play in the NFCCG. I would imagine we are probably at the bottom of the NFL re: getting defenders to jump offsides.
Originally posted by WINiner:
Originally posted by Ronnie49Lott:
Taking the clock down to the last second always makes it very easy for the defense to get a good jump. ADavis has a hard enough time as it is against speed rushers without them not having to guess on when to go.

There was a time when this team needed the stability of a conservative offense but those days came and went when the team took the next step and faced tougher competition in the playoffs. Harbaugh gambled that the offense was good enough as is and lost. After last year he should have made the changes either to open up the offense or change the OC.

I really don't get his infatuation with this odd system, if memory serves he ran something similar at Stanford.

The offense and it's inconsistency is the problem with this team. Kap needs to play better and Roman needs to call better and Harbaugh needs to manage better.
Lately I've been wondering if Harbaugh would feel threatened by an experienced OC which is why he has stayed with Roman.
[ Edited by Ronnie49Lott on Feb 26, 2014 at 9:34 PM ]
Great article by MB again...this time on potential changes to the scheme on offense and HOW they call plays:

ORLANDO, Fla. - The 49ers are seeking wide receivers this offseason and, Jim Harbaugh hinted, perhaps some tweaks to their power-based offense. "A real good scheme evaluation, I think, is what's next for us as coaches," the 49ers coach said today at a media breakfast.

"Now that we've had Colin (Kaepernick) here for a year and half and understand what we all do well, what we could do better. I think that's something that's a priority right now that we'll attack."Will they be big changes? "No, not big changes," he said. "But always be an evolution, always strive to make it better."

As is his custom, Harbaugh lavished praise on his starting quarterback and defended him against criticism, including accusations that he's a one-read passer."Some of the time there was just one guy to go to," Harbaugh said. "There were times we had Anquan (Boldin) and Vernon (Davis). And they were literally doubling Anquan and Vernon. And he had one other option to go to. ... There was tough sledding. It's up to all of us to get better."

One of the ways to improve, Harbaugh said more than once during the hour-long sessions, is to supply Kaepernick with more weapons. When receiver Michael Crabtree was injured last season, the 49ers' passing game revolved around two players - Boldin and Davis, who caught all but one of Kaepernick's 24 touchdown passes during the regular season and playoffs.The situation improved when Crabtree returned to the field in December, but Harbaugh indicated that more firepower is needed. He and general manager Trent Baalke like Quinton Patton, a fourth-round pick in 2013 who was injured for half of his rookie season.

This year's draft, however, is especially rich in wideouts, and the 49ers are likely to give Patton competition for the No. 3 spot.The 49ers also have considered wide receivers in free agency, including Julian Edelman, Hakeem Nicks and Emmanuel Sanders. All of them signed elsewhere.

"There was a stretch last year where he didn't have (many receiving options), and he played through it," Harbaugh said of Kaepernick. "And never an excuse, never a bony finger of blame toward anybody. There was definitely times where we were just not getting guys open for him."

One of the tweaks the 49ers have in store likely will be to the way they call plays. The process to this point has been long and cumbersome, and it's resulted in a slough of delay-of-game penalties and timeouts. The potential game-winning play in the Super Bowl a year ago, for example, was wiped out because the play clock was about to expire. The Seahawks, who throttled San Francisco's passing game last season, including in the NFC title game, also may force Harbaugh and the 49ers to make changes. One of the few teams that gave Seattle's aggressive defense problems last year was the Colts, who beat them 34-28. In that game, quarterback Andrew Luck threw two touchdowns, both of them to receiver T.Y. Hilton, who finished with five catches for 140 yards. Boldin and Crabtree are physical, aggressive receivers who mostly are used in the short-to medium-passing game.

Asked if the 49ers could use a swift, down-field threat like Hilton in their offense, Harbaugh said "it's something that we'll look at addressing." Acquiring that type of receiver also could prompt the 49ers to use more three wide-receiver formations. Dating back to his time at the University of San Diego, Harbaugh's offenses have been decidedly brawny and run-oriented, and he has preferred using two tight ends or a running back and a full back instead of three receivers. In fact, San Francisco has used the formation roughly 20% of the time over the last three seasons, the lowest rate in the league. "We've mainly done that on third down," Harbaugh said before pausing and continuing coyly, "but it doesn't mean we can't do it on first and second down."

Read more here: http://blogs.sacbee.com/49ers/archives/2014/03/harbaugh-hints-at-changes-to-49ers-offense.html#storylink=cpy

In short, if you're not getting better...you're getting worse.
Good Lord!

Watching the NFL Network and Roger Craig had 1,500 yards rushing and 72 receptions in 1988.

Boldin had 85 last year. I know it's not fair to compare but, wow!