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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...I highly doubt he went that next level and looked at play design/play calling/passing philsophy...I know Gruden, Tirico and Dilfer touched on it (as did Harbaugh in his play description on the final INT) but I think initially, most are just looking at outcomes (i.e. CK is only looking to his first read). Well duh...that's the play design often times (i.e. team passing concept: AR1 or 2). We just don't see this MUCH at the NFL level so he's probably assuming every passing play is a PS play and that there are built in progressions and that CK is just honing in on his first (and only) read b/c he's so raw; it's all his issue. But we all know that is not always the case.


I have no idea what Cossell is or is not assuming. As far as I can tell, Gruden et al commented on elements of Kaepernick's game and play calling.

Talking about those elements is entirely different than talking about this proposed theory. Those elements just do not constitute a theory.

By the way, what is a PS play? Is this an element in this AR construct? Maybe, I just dumb, but these terms (PS play, AR 1 and AR2) are new to me.

The simple fact is few, if any outside of this forum, have talked about or are talking about this AR theory (AR 1 or AR 2, or whatever it is called).

As I said in a previous post. It will be interesting to see if the AR theory escapes the confines of Niner Talk.


It long has since and has been commented on regularly. AR is the same as "simplified read".

Jim Harbaugh and offensive coordinator Greg Roman have done a brilliant job working around these factors. Armed with the talented resources surrounding Kaepernick, they've constructed the NFL's most creative power running game. In the passing game, they've managed to highlight Kaepernick's skills through shrewd yet simplified designs. Even then, Kaepernick still can randomize things. Here's a great example:




What does Harbaugh tell his young QB when studying this play on film? Obviously, it was a great run, but Kaepernick ignored the essential timing and mechanics that quarterbacks and coaches work on so diligently. Does Harbaugh remind Kaepernick that, while running worked this time, he can't count on it regularly in similar situations? (There have been plenty of occasions in which Kaepernick has left open receivers on the field to scramble for negligible yards or throw a late incompletion.) Or does Harbaugh just pat his young star on the back (likely a tad too hard—just ask Jim Schwartz) and implore him to do it again?

While defenses fear Kaepernick's running, they also know exactly how to make him uncomfortable: by keeping him in the pocket. Inevitably, there will be crucial situations in which Kaepernick has to make plays strictly with his arm. The Niners learned this the hard way at the end of last year's Super Bowl. With the Ravens often using an all-out blitz in the red zone, San Francisco had to ask its quarterback to make quick, tight-window throws. Kaepernick did not come through.





http://mmqb.si.com/2014/01/15/colin-kaepernick-nfc-championship-game-san-francisco-49ers/

When I couple this with what Grant discussed in his article ...... how the coaches should help guide their young inexperienced QB through the most difficult times in games (i.e. situational football), I'm left to wonder about the Greg Romans and for that matter JH coaching acumen in critical times when it counted for all the marbles.

AR is simply putting the control and power into the hands of HaRoMan. Period. It fits their M.O. AR is nothing more than "scheming a guy open" whether that's via a designed CK run or designed passing play. The focus is on "execution by all." Nothing more. It's as much on CK to execute the play as it is on the AR and esp. the non-AR's when these designed plays are dialed up in the huddle. As to the play highlighted above...this is THE most common play we run in the RZ...roll right, quick pass to Crabtree. Crabtree is the AR in this designed play...one we've seen over and over and over and over since before even the Superbowl here. CK is to get the ball out right away or ad lib...and ad lib is, ironically, where we scored most of our TD's esp. since Crabtree came back this year.

As to your point, it DOES help the QB because it simplfies things and when these AR play designs work, they work well. We all know the downside of them as well.

So at this junction, I have very little doubt, with all the repetitive patterns we've seen to date, more and more and more of this is falling on offensive philosophy and proper coaching and in-game situational game awareness by all. CK's "mindset" is not right (nor are his mechanics) and he lacks game readiness often times and we all know he needs his 10,000 hours of experience as well.

BUT, I'm not seeing the progress with our scheme/philosophy or coaches learning from their own issues/errors at well esp. in critical situations. That scares me and that may be while CK seemed to plateau or even regress this year and we ended up with the same end results despite having all the same weapons (actually, we were better than last year) on the field.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 31, 2014 at 10:09 AM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by NinerGM:
It long has since and has been commented on regularly. AR is the same as "simplified read".

When I couple this with what Grant discussed in his article ...... how the coaches should help guide their young inexperienced QB through the most difficult times in games (i.e. situational football), I'm left to wonder about the Greg Romans and for that matter JH coaching acumen in critical times when it counted for all the marbles.

Interesting read. I have no problem with you having concerns about the coaching acumen of Jim Harbaugh or Greg Roman.

I may not agree with specific arguments or tenor of the arguments raised by you, Mr. King, or Mr. Cohen, but there is no doubt that 49er passing offense does need to improve.

However, the AR construct being used in our discussion seems to remain a creation of Niner Talk. In the article by Peter King, there was no mention of AR of for that matter the term "simplified read."

In my estimation, the notion of AR tends to overemphasize perceived weaknesses in the play design or scheme of the passing offense and to understate the importance of other factors such as the quality of the wide receiving corps, player development, player error, and clock management.

One underlying fact that seems to totally lost in much of the discussion is that Harbaugh and company, irrespective of how we gauge their coaching acumen, have been incredibly successful in producing wins.

Granted the current brain trust has not won a Super Bowl, but the success of coaching staffs are not judged solely on winning Super Bowls. At least, I am not willing to say the Bill Walsh only had three successful seasons.
[ Edited by buck on Jan 31, 2014 at 8:37 AM ]
Are there other 2nd year QBs who get this much analysis? I wish this kind of analysis was around for all QBs. For comparison sake.
Originally posted by WeDidIt:
Are there other 2nd year QBs who get this much analysis? I wish this kind of analysis was around for all QBs. For comparison sake.

RW on .net gets broken down just like kaep
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by WeDidIt:
Are there other 2nd year QBs who get this much analysis? I wish this kind of analysis was around for all QBs. For comparison sake.

RW on .net gets broken down just like kaep

ok and what's the conclusion? wilson also breaks plays and doesn't go thru progressions RIGHT??
Originally posted by iLL49er:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by WeDidIt:
Are there other 2nd year QBs who get this much analysis? I wish this kind of analysis was around for all QBs. For comparison sake.

RW on .net gets broken down just like kaep

ok and what's the conclusion? wilson also breaks plays and doesn't go thru progressions RIGHT??

The argument from what I remember is how he becomes ineffective as a passer when they keep him in the pocket. He's scared to pull the trigger and throw people open.

He has as much detractors from his fanbase as kaep does.
[ Edited by verb1der on Jan 31, 2014 at 10:37 AM ]
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by iLL49er:
Originally posted by verb1der:
Originally posted by WeDidIt:
Are there other 2nd year QBs who get this much analysis? I wish this kind of analysis was around for all QBs. For comparison sake.

RW on .net gets broken down just like kaep

ok and what's the conclusion? wilson also breaks plays and doesn't go thru progressions RIGHT??

The argument from what I remember is how he becomes ineffective as a passer when they keep him in the pocket. He's scared to pull the trigger and throw people open.

He has as much detractors from his fanbase as kaep does.

i'm sure he does....too many fans expect perfection and love playing arm chair qb

yes they can be better, they are young qb's developing

the Calderon is way too hot around these young guys

kap has played 29 or 30 games total so far from what i re-call.

thats it...think about that, think about how good he's become in this short period on learning how to play qb in a traditional offense

the future is very very bright, harbaugh and roman are bringing him along slowly, the limitations we complain about are by design to protect our young fledgling star qb as he learns his craft on the fly in the midst of superbowl contending
For all the reasons stated above is why I beiieve G-RO has not landed a HC job. If he and/or Harbs proved to the NFL that they transformed CK from a raw athletic talent to a more polished pocket QB in 2 years then any NFL team that needed an offensive minded head coach would have jumped on Greg Roman ASAP. The fact that they have not yet worked out all the kinks in Kaep's game makes teams hesitant. You can blame the scheme or Kaep. It doesn't matter.

I wonder if we were eliminated in the wild card round this year would Roman finally have landed a HC job. It seems that with 2 deep playoff runs might have been the reason Roman was passed up AGAIN. No one wants to wait. Or could be what I said above.
Originally posted by 951NINER:
For all the reasons stated above is why I beiieve G-RO has not landed a HC job. If he and/or Harbs proved to the NFL that they transformed CK from a raw athletic talent to a more polished pocket QB in 2 years then any NFL team that needed an offensive minded head coach would have jumped on Greg Roman ASAP. The fact that they have not yet worked out all the kinks in Kaep's game makes teams hesitant. You can blame the scheme or Kaep. It doesn't matter.

I wonder if we were eliminated in the wild card round this year would Roman finally have landed a HC job. It seems that with 2 deep playoff runs might have been the reason Roman was passed up AGAIN. No one wants to wait. Or could be what I said above.

Good question...given he also only got one alleged interview for a potential college job too AND has made it publically clear through the media that he's looking for a HC job?

And nothing...
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 31, 2014 at 11:57 AM ]
  • buck
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
For all the reasons stated above is why I beiieve G-RO has not landed a HC job. If he and/or Harbs proved to the NFL that they transformed CK from a raw athletic talent to a more polished pocket QB in 2 years then any NFL team that needed an offensive minded head coach would have jumped on Greg Roman ASAP. The fact that they have not yet worked out all the kinks in Kaep's game makes teams hesitant. You can blame the scheme or Kaep. It doesn't matter.

I wonder if we were eliminated in the wild card round this year would Roman finally have landed a HC job. It seems that with 2 deep playoff runs might have been the reason Roman was passed up AGAIN. No one wants to wait. Or could be what I said above.

Good question...given he also only got one alleged interview for a potential college job too AND has made it publically clear through the media that he's looking for a HC job?

And nothing...

I agree. The apparent lack of interest in Roman is telling. I do not think it can be explained simply by the fact that the 49ers have went deep into the play offs.

At the same time, the number of posters who simultaneously lambasted Roman and suggested that he would get a head coaching job is also telling.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
For all the reasons stated above is why I beiieve G-RO has not landed a HC job. If he and/or Harbs proved to the NFL that they transformed CK from a raw athletic talent to a more polished pocket QB in 2 years then any NFL team that needed an offensive minded head coach would have jumped on Greg Roman ASAP. The fact that they have not yet worked out all the kinks in Kaep's game makes teams hesitant. You can blame the scheme or Kaep. It doesn't matter.

I wonder if we were eliminated in the wild card round this year would Roman finally have landed a HC job. It seems that with 2 deep playoff runs might have been the reason Roman was passed up AGAIN. No one wants to wait. Or could be what I said above.

Good question...given he also only got one alleged interview for a potential college job too AND has made it publically clear through the media that he's looking for a HC job?

And nothing...

I agree. The apparent lack of interest in Roman is telling. I do not think it can be explained simply by the fact that the 49ers have went deep into the play offs.

At the same time, the number of posters who simultaneously lambasted Roman and suggested that he would get a head coaching job is also telling.

LOL...true!
  • buck
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 9,750
Originally posted by NCommand:


So at this junction, I have very little doubt, with all the repetitive patterns we've seen to date, more and more and more of this is falling on offensive philosophy and proper coaching and in-game situational game awareness by all. CK's "mindset" is not right (nor are his mechanics) and he lacks game readiness often times and we all know he needs his 10,000 hours of experience as well.

BUT, I'm not seeing the progress with our scheme/philosophy or coaches learning from their own issues/errors at well esp. in critical situations. That scares me and that may be while CK seemed to plateau or even regress this year and we ended up with the same end results despite having all the same weapons (actually, we were better than last year) on the field.

First, we won more games in the regular season this year than we did last year. So, if you were saying we were better on field in 2012 than we were in 2013, I disagree. But, I am not sure that is what you were saying.

Apart from that detail, I tend to agree that if the coaching staff had been more adept at learning from its past mistakes, we would have had a better record and we would have advanced further in the play-offs.

I anxiously await the coming season. Harbaugh et al still will have an opportunity to re-evaluate their work.

I am hopeful that they will make the required changes.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by 951NINER:
For all the reasons stated above is why I beiieve G-RO has not landed a HC job. If he and/or Harbs proved to the NFL that they transformed CK from a raw athletic talent to a more polished pocket QB in 2 years then any NFL team that needed an offensive minded head coach would have jumped on Greg Roman ASAP. The fact that they have not yet worked out all the kinks in Kaep's game makes teams hesitant. You can blame the scheme or Kaep. It doesn't matter.

I wonder if we were eliminated in the wild card round this year would Roman finally have landed a HC job. It seems that with 2 deep playoff runs might have been the reason Roman was passed up AGAIN. No one wants to wait. Or could be what I said above.

Good question...given he also only got one alleged interview for a potential college job too AND has made it publically clear through the media that he's looking for a HC job?

And nothing...

I agree. The apparent lack of interest in Roman is telling. I do not think it can be explained simply by the fact that the 49ers have went deep into the play offs.

At the same time, the number of posters who simultaneously lambasted Roman and suggested that he would get a head coaching job is also telling.

That's my question, it can't just be that teams are so impatient to hire someone. I mean if you really want a certain person you will wait til even this weekend. Although that NFL team better have a really good pulse on the individual. You know he wants the job or else why would he even interview? I understand teams want to hire a HC ASAP and get the ball rolling on staff, personel , FA's, etc..

I just don't know what to make about this next year when during one of our games you're going to hear some announcer say " Greg Roman is widely considered to land a HC job in the NFL." For me personally, I won't miss him.
Originally posted by buck:
First, we won more games in the regular season this year than we did last year. So, if you were saying we were better on field in 2012 than we were in 2013, I disagree. But, I am not sure that is what you were saying.

Apart from that detail, I tend to agree that if the coaching staff had been more adept at learning from its past mistakes, we would have had a better record and we would have advanced further in the play-offs.

I anxiously await the coming season. Harbaugh et al still will have an opportunity to re-evaluate their work.

I am hopeful that they will make the required changes.

Agreed...felt we did have better personnel this year and probably a tougher schedule (travel included) and had a brutal playoff run STARTING with the Hawks game late in the season, Cardinals, then onto the real playoffs with GB, Carolina and Seattle. We had better personnel on the field and much much better depth and a full off season. 2012 to me was mostly talent and smoke-and-mirrors. This year we had to earn every yard. And when you factor in all of this, and like I said prior to the playoffs, coaching/game plans make all the difference between two equally talented teams.

We can focus on "execution" but play calling (situational awareness) and coaching ("OK, don't be afraid to throw the ball away...take a TO...use your check downs...TO's kill playoff teams!), etc. are critical to winning tight games, esp. on the road IMHO.

For the record, I'm hopeful too b/c NOW, the patterns are very very very clear: http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/176065-road-superbowl-areas-improvement/search=On%20the%20road
We could have the deepest roster in the league on both sides of the ball + special teams.

Yet our offense performed inconsistently for various reasons. We couldn't run the ball in the last 6 weeks because we couldn't keep defenses honest. One reason we couldn't do this is because we have little or no quick hitting, short passing game. Another reason is that we use a lot of formations where the defense doesn't have to guess who will be handed the ball. There is usually one person who, for all practical purposes, will get the ball.

Are these behaviors by design or necessity? Not sure. We didn't evolve in these areas during the season did we? I didn't notice if we did. I think we spent a lot of time trying to evolve our down field looks -- either by changing personnel, or changing scheme, or what not.

But I don't think anyone was concerned with getting the second level off the line before the snap, or any other trick that will promote achieving consistent positive yardage for our backs. Maybe the coaches felt that chunk downfield plays will loosen up the D. But I don't think it worked out that way. I think better defenses and coaching did not change their approach very much in this regard.

Will some rookies make a difference here? I don't think so. I think the staff is pretty pleased they finished 14-5 and we'll be seeing it all again next year.

Based on all the above conversation, it looks like we're really excited about Kap improving his hit rate on the chunk downfield plays with healthy receivers. As long as he sells t shirts, what more can management ask.