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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by buck:
I am really looking forward to next year.


I wonder if this AR theory will escape the confines of niner talk next year.

The AR theory was born and will die in the WZ...
It´s harbaugh´s offence. Even if Mike Shanahan would be the OC the offence would look simmilar because it´s Harbaugh´s playbook, and his offence.
  • buck
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Originally posted by NinerGM:
Go through progressions?

"Kaepernick, to me, he needs his legs to bail him out," Cosell said. "Kaepernick is not really a polished quarterback. He's not a progression reader."
-Greg Cossel Jan 9, 2014

http://mojo.radio.cbssports.com/2014/01/09/greg-cosell-kaepernick-is-not-really-a-polished-quarterback/

Cossel may be correct in his evaluation of Kaepernick.

But, if he is correct, we can logically infer that the offensive scheme does have enough progressions in the passing game to allow Cossel to accurately judge Kaepernick's ability to read those progressions.

If the offense were an AR based offense, it would be more likely that Cossel would note the difficulty of determining Kaepernick's skill at working through his progressions because of the lack of progressions in the offense scheme.



Of course an existing weakness in reading progressions means that this weakness will always be there as quarterback unlike players at other positions do not improve over time.
[ Edited by buck on Jan 30, 2014 at 8:36 AM ]
Originally posted by thl408:
NinerGM, it seems like you take what you hear these guys (Cosell, Dilfer, etc) say as truth. I value their comments, but I question some of the things they say because I choose to find the answers for myself. You completely dismiss what is clearly on film, choosing to instead site their comments. Do you even know what you are looking at when you see those thumbnails of the passing plays? If you don't, that's fine, but then educate yourself. Don't just blindly dismiss it and fallback to what Dilfer said on TV. You don't have to do that when the all22 is available for all of us interpret.

Did you know that one of the reasons the all22 was not available till last year was because coaches didn't want to be second guessed? Likewise, we as fans can now second guess these analysts. I post these breakdowns so we can all view them and interpret the plays on our own. Please give it a chance instead of just repeating what these analysts say. Value their analysis, but don't just accept it without question. Especially when it doesn't jive with what you see when watching 49er games.

The 49ers utilize pro passing concepts. I have tried to illustrate that in the film breakdowns. These concepts work to get routes open. This is why football played at every level uses them. When using these concepts, it is critical that the QB understands defenses, recognize matchups, and targets the proper route, given what the defense is showing. This is very anti-AR. If you'd like to discuss this in the film analysis thread I am more than happy to talk Xs and Os. We can probably both learn a lot from that type of discussion. Let me know what plays you think are AR, because there are indeed some. But if you still choose to not broaden your knowledge of the game and just proceed to site other TV analysts, then I got nothing else.

I seem to remember Cosell saying Alex Smith wouldn't win in a shoot out. Then the saints came marching into candlestick. History speaks for itself, and Smith would have taken this team to a Super Bowl if Kyle Williams wasn't on the Giants' payroll.

That's the biggest reason I would rather see these break downs than listen to analysts. Nice work thl!
Greg Roman would look like a friggin' genius if certain players don't have a brainfart in critical junctures in the game. Anthony Davis, I am looking at you. If Davis reacted a little better, the pick on the last play would probably have been an incomplete pass to the back of the endzone. The entire game the O-line was beaten to the punch on the run game. Gore looked like a punching bag out there. PLAYERS HAVE TO EXECUTE. Yeah, we can't expect the O-line to every battle but we shouldn't expect it to lose almost every battle either.
Originally posted by JoeisGod:
Greg Roman would look like a friggin' genius if certain players don't have a brainfart in critical junctures in the game. Anthony Davis, I am looking at you. If Davis reacted a little better, the pick on the last play would probably have been an incomplete pass to the back of the endzone. The entire game the O-line was beaten to the punch on the run game. Gore looked like a punching bag out there. PLAYERS HAVE TO EXECUTE. Yeah, we can't expect the O-line to every battle but we shouldn't expect it to lose almost every battle either.

True but you CAN expect the OL to lose every battle on first down...d/t predictable play calling. So HaRoMan HAVE to find better ways to get us into 2nd and 3rd and manageables. Period. I don't care if it's AR or PS. Scheme has killed us on first downs.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NinerGM:
Go through progressions?

"Kaepernick, to me, he needs his legs to bail him out," Cosell said. "Kaepernick is not really a polished quarterback. He's not a progression reader."
-Greg Cossel Jan 9, 2014

http://mojo.radio.cbssports.com/2014/01/09/greg-cosell-kaepernick-is-not-really-a-polished-quarterback/

Cossel may be correct in his evaluation of Kaepernick.

But, if he is correct, we can logically infer that the offensive scheme does have enough progressions in the passing game to allow Cossel to accurately judge Kaepernick's ability to read those progressions.

If the offense were an AR based offense, it would be more likely that Cossel would note the difficulty of determining Kaepernick's skill at working through his progressions because of the lack of progressions in the offense scheme.



Of course an existing weakness in reading progressions means that this weakness will always be there as quarterback unlike players at other positions do not improve over time.

Agreed...I'm highly doubt he went that next level and looked at play design/play calling/passing philsophy...I know Gruden, Tirico and Dilfer touched on it (as did Harbaugh in his play description on the final INT) but I think initially, most are just looking at outcomes (i.e. CK is only looking to his first read). Well duh...that's the play design often times (team passing concept: AR1 or 2). We just don't see this MUCH at the NFL level so he's probably assuming every passing play is a PS play and that there are built in progressions and that CK is just honing in on his first (and only) read; it's all his issue. But we all know that is not always the case.
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 30, 2014 at 10:30 AM ]
Originally posted by JeuSF49:
It´s harbaugh´s offence. Even if Mike Shanahan would be the OC the offence would look simmilar because it´s Harbaugh´s playbook, and his offence.

Sadly, I believe this to be true. If Mike came here he's be Greg Roman or Jimmy Raye II.
  • buck
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...I'm highly doubt he went that next level and looked at play design/play calling/passing philsophy...I know Gruden, Tirico and Dilfer touched on it (as did Harbaugh in his play description on the final INT) but I think initially, most are just looking at outcomes (i.e. CK is only looking to his first read). Well duh...that's the play design often times (team passing concept: AR1 or 2). We just don't see this MUCH at the NFL level so he's probably assuming every passing play is a PS play and that there are built in progressions and that CK is just honing in on his first (and only) read; it's all his issue. But we all know that is not always the case.


I have no idea what Cossell is or is not assuming. As far as I can tell, Gruden et al commented on elements of Kaepernick's game and play calling.

Talking about those elements is entirely different than talking about this proposed theory. Those elements just do not constitute a theory.

By the way, what is a PS play? Is this an element in this AR construct? Maybe, I just dumb, but these terms (PS play, AR 1 and AR2) are new to me.

The simple fact is few, if any outside of this forum, have talked about or are talking about this AR theory (AR 1 or AR 2, or whatever it is called).

As I said in a previous post. It will be interesting to see if the AR theory escapes the confines of Niner Talk.

  • buck
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Originally posted by JoeisGod:
Greg Roman would look like a friggin' genius if certain players don't have a brainfart in critical junctures in the game. Anthony Davis, I am looking at you. If Davis reacted a little better, the pick on the last play would probably have been an incomplete pass to the back of the endzone. The entire game the O-line was beaten to the punch on the run game. Gore looked like a punching bag out there. PLAYERS HAVE TO EXECUTE. Yeah, we can't expect the O-line to every battle but we shouldn't expect it to lose almost every battle either.

I think that our offensive scheme has problems that are not simply the result of player errors.

I do not pretend to have the expertise required to provide any meaningful insight into our offensive scheme or play calling, but my best guess is that there is confluence of weaknesses and errors that cause the apparent debilities in our offense.
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...I'm highly doubt he went that next level and looked at play design/play calling/passing philsophy...I know Gruden, Tirico and Dilfer touched on it (as did Harbaugh in his play description on the final INT) but I think initially, most are just looking at outcomes (i.e. CK is only looking to his first read). Well duh...that's the play design often times (team passing concept: AR1 or 2). We just don't see this MUCH at the NFL level so he's probably assuming every passing play is a PS play and that there are built in progressions and that CK is just honing in on his first (and only) read; it's all his issue. But we all know that is not always the case.


I have no idea what Cossell is or is not assuming. As far as I can tell, Gruden et al commented on elements of Kaepernick's game and play calling.

Talking about those elements is entirely different than talking about this proposed theory. Those elements just do not constitute a theory.

By the way, what is a PS play? Is this an element in this AR construct? Maybe, I just dumb, but these terms (PS play, AR 1 and AR2) are new to me.

The simple fact is few, if any outside of this forum, have talked about or are talking about this AR theory (AR 1 or AR 2, or whatever it is called).

As I said in a previous post. It will be interesting to see if the AR theory escapes the confines of Niner Talk.


Sorry, PS stands for Pro Style passing plays...so true WCO designs with built in progression reads (high-to-low concepts, etc.) or Spraed formations (many 4 and even 5 receiver sets where CK is in shotgun and just scans the field left to right and vice versa and picks the best option ala Brady-like).

And you're right, Gruden, Tirico, Dilfer, etc. noted the "scheming guys open" AR concept...they were the first ones to talk about it after we noted it here in NT. Every offense does this though...I just felt we did it a lot when Crabtree was hurt (makes sense) and we do it a lot in the RZ (esp. AR 2's). But once Crabtree came back, it seems were were running more PS passing plays which is a good thing b/c CK has to learn defenses and progression reads if we're ever going to get to that next level. He made strides IMHO. Also, when the AR works, it tends to work very well...when it didn't earlier in the year, it was a nightmare...but since Crabtree came back, it's been less of an issue d/t much improved ad lib plays broken from an AR.

In fact one could probably make a good argument in that our most successful plays were ad lib plays once Crabtree came back!
[ Edited by NCommand on Jan 30, 2014 at 11:16 AM ]
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by JoeisGod:
Greg Roman would look like a friggin' genius if certain players don't have a brainfart in critical junctures in the game. Anthony Davis, I am looking at you. If Davis reacted a little better, the pick on the last play would probably have been an incomplete pass to the back of the endzone. The entire game the O-line was beaten to the punch on the run game. Gore looked like a punching bag out there. PLAYERS HAVE TO EXECUTE. Yeah, we can't expect the O-line to every battle but we shouldn't expect it to lose almost every battle either.

I think that our offensive scheme has problems that are not simply the result of player errors.

I do not pretend to have the expertise required to provide any meaningful insight into our offensive scheme or play calling, but my best guess is that there is confluence of weaknesses and errors that cause the apparent debilities in our offense.

Agree with this...it's just never a simple one item problem. It is often chicken egg and multi-faceted problems. For instance--is Roman adjusting for players with whom he has no faith? If so, is it justified or over reaction? Does Kaepernick's issues with short passing come from his limited use of short passes due to play calling? Is the designated receiver theory true in 90% of pass plays? 2%? Or not at all?

Does running Gore into a stacked box make more sense than I am aware of? Maybe it does wear down the defensive line and keeps the pass rush from killing CK. Would the OLine be much worse without running into the stack three out of every five plays?

Do the niners have too many plays in any given week?

So many questions I can't answer! Oh well, can't always have absolute clarity!
Originally posted by buck:
Originally posted by NCommand:
Agreed...I'm highly doubt he went that next level and looked at play design/play calling/passing philsophy...I know Gruden, Tirico and Dilfer touched on it (as did Harbaugh in his play description on the final INT) but I think initially, most are just looking at outcomes (i.e. CK is only looking to his first read). Well duh...that's the play design often times (team passing concept: AR1 or 2). We just don't see this MUCH at the NFL level so he's probably assuming every passing play is a PS play and that there are built in progressions and that CK is just honing in on his first (and only) read; it's all his issue. But we all know that is not always the case.


I have no idea what Cossell is or is not assuming. As far as I can tell, Gruden et al commented on elements of Kaepernick's game and play calling.

Talking about those elements is entirely different than talking about this proposed theory. Those elements just do not constitute a theory.

By the way, what is a PS play? Is this an element in this AR construct? Maybe, I just dumb, but these terms (PS play, AR 1 and AR2) are new to me.

The simple fact is few, if any outside of this forum, have talked about or are talking about this AR theory (AR 1 or AR 2, or whatever it is called).

As I said in a previous post. It will be interesting to see if the AR theory escapes the confines of Niner Talk.


It long has since and has been commented on regularly. AR is the same as "simplified read".

Jim Harbaugh and offensive coordinator Greg Roman have done a brilliant job working around these factors. Armed with the talented resources surrounding Kaepernick, they've constructed the NFL's most creative power running game. In the passing game, they've managed to highlight Kaepernick's skills through shrewd yet simplified designs. Even then, Kaepernick still can randomize things. Here's a great example:




What does Harbaugh tell his young QB when studying this play on film? Obviously, it was a great run, but Kaepernick ignored the essential timing and mechanics that quarterbacks and coaches work on so diligently. Does Harbaugh remind Kaepernick that, while running worked this time, he can't count on it regularly in similar situations? (There have been plenty of occasions in which Kaepernick has left open receivers on the field to scramble for negligible yards or throw a late incompletion.) Or does Harbaugh just pat his young star on the back (likely a tad too hard—just ask Jim Schwartz) and implore him to do it again?

While defenses fear Kaepernick's running, they also know exactly how to make him uncomfortable: by keeping him in the pocket. Inevitably, there will be crucial situations in which Kaepernick has to make plays strictly with his arm. The Niners learned this the hard way at the end of last year's Super Bowl. With the Ravens often using an all-out blitz in the red zone, San Francisco had to ask its quarterback to make quick, tight-window throws. Kaepernick did not come through.





http://mmqb.si.com/2014/01/15/colin-kaepernick-nfc-championship-game-san-francisco-49ers/

When I couple this with what Grant discussed in his article ...... how the coaches should help guide their young inexperienced QB through the most difficult times in games (i.e. situational football), I'm left to wonder about the Greg Romans and for that matter JH coaching acumen in critical times when it counted for all the marbles.
[ Edited by NinerGM on Jan 30, 2014 at 10:01 PM ]
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Agree with this...it's just never a simple one item problem. It is often chicken egg and multi-faceted problems. For instance--is Roman adjusting for players with whom he has no faith? If so, is it justified or over reaction? Does Kaepernick's issues with short passing come from his limited use of short passes due to play calling? Is the designated receiver theory true in 90% of pass plays? 2%? Or not at all?

Does running Gore into a stacked box make more sense than I am aware of? Maybe it does wear down the defensive line and keeps the pass rush from killing CK. Would the OLine be much worse without running into the stack three out of every five plays?

Do the niners have too many plays in any given week?

So many questions I can't answer! Oh well, can't always have absolute clarity!

Yes. How much of this is on Roman, Harbaugh, lack of execution? I find that our offensive gameplans are simple at best. For a team that is supposed to be so good at running the ball. If Gore is not able to gain yardage up the gut, we're in trouble. Our run game is basic at best too. So tired of seeing Gore running up the gut into a stacked box. That puts the offensive at such a huge disadvantage. So my thing is. Is that a Harbaugh problem or Roman? If it's a Harbaugh problem then it doesn't matter who we bring in to replace Roman. The problems will remain. Our offense is Jimy Raye-ish. Slants and screens are way too rare for such a good running team. It's much easier for a defense to defend when they do not have to account for those plays.

Something needs to be done though. That's for sure.
Originally posted by WeDidIt:
Originally posted by dtg_9er:
Agree with this...it's just never a simple one item problem. It is often chicken egg and multi-faceted problems. For instance--is Roman adjusting for players with whom he has no faith? If so, is it justified or over reaction? Does Kaepernick's issues with short passing come from his limited use of short passes due to play calling? Is the designated receiver theory true in 90% of pass plays? 2%? Or not at all?

Does running Gore into a stacked box make more sense than I am aware of? Maybe it does wear down the defensive line and keeps the pass rush from killing CK. Would the OLine be much worse without running into the stack three out of every five plays?

Do the niners have too many plays in any given week?

So many questions I can't answer! Oh well, can't always have absolute clarity!

Yes. How much of this is on Roman, Harbaugh, lack of execution? I find that our offensive gameplans are simple at best. For a team that is supposed to be so good at running the ball. If Gore is not able to gain yardage up the gut, we're in trouble. Our run game is basic at best too. So tired of seeing Gore running up the gut into a stacked box. That puts the offensive at such a huge disadvantage. So my thing is. Is that a Harbaugh problem or Roman? If it's a Harbaugh problem then it doesn't matter who we bring in to replace Roman. The problems will remain. Our offense is Jimy Raye-ish. Slants and screens are way too rare for such a good running team. It's much easier for a defense to defend when they do not have to account for those plays.

Something needs to be done though. That's for sure.

100% agree!