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Greg Roman, is he really good?

^^^ granted 4 straight passes to Crabree probably weren't the best play calls to say the least, but it really shouldn't have mattered had the game been properly called (spearing Crabtree in the face mask, P.I. on Culliver, holdings, etc.). Oh well...America loves drama and the NFL is our entertainment ground and Ray Lewis' "last ride" was paramount to the product's continued success. That's my conspiracy theory and I'm sticking to it. LOL
[ Edited by NCommand on Oct 17, 2013 at 4:44 PM ]
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 26,874
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
yeah CC will always blame the OC ...The Refs never affect the game ever...ever
now you are coming around! i am sorry but i still say if roman had not made a left hand turn onto retard road on second and third down,, it never would have come down to the infamous fourth down
Originally posted by cciowa:
Originally posted by 49AllTheTime:
yeah CC will always blame the OC ...The Refs never affect the game ever...ever
now you are coming around! i am sorry but i still say if roman had not made a left hand turn onto retard road on second and third down,, it never would have come down to the infamous fourth down
if we didnt win that coin toss ..we would have number 6....Guess who flipped the coin !
I don't care what anyone says. In probably every game played that season, it's 1st and goal from the 1 and a half after that helmet to helmet hit on Crabtree.
as we see the seahawks running zone read plays screens and passes to the other tight end from rice
  • cciowa
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 26,874
Originally posted by GNielsen:
I don't care what anyone says. In probably every game played that season, it's 1st and goal from the 1 and a half after that helmet to helmet hit on Crabtree.

if your theory is correct, i still would not have trusted roman to punch it in.he would have went into his nutty professor mode
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
as we see the seahawks running zone read plays screens and passes to the other tight end from rice

Shhhhhhhh...
  • LVJay
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 8,223
He's good at working on that triple-chin-action play!
Originally posted by LVJay:
He's good at working on that triple-chin-action play!

During the broadcast, they show Roman in the booth, then this play happens.

The 49ers come out in an odd personnel package with 3 TEs. ARI counters with 4DL 4LB 3DB. FS is in black, SS in blue circle.
Below: All three TEs have lined up to one side of the formation. Kyle is lined up wide left with a CB (off screen). This play is made to attack the LB straight ahead of Goodwin.


Below: VD (red arrow) has shifted over to the left side. VD is now Honeybadger's (black) assignment.


Below: Vance has now shifted over to the left side and lines up between Kyle and VD. The FS (black) now switches over to take Vance. That targeted LB is now on Vernon. Perfect. The ball is snapped before Vance is even set.


Below: I thought this was a key part in VD's route. VD has to get behind that LB so that if it's zone, the LB will pass VD off to the deep SS (blue), or anyone, because that LB can't leave his zone assignment (black square). VD has now exited that LB's zone, as far as that LB is concerned. You can see that LB giving the old 'he's not mine anymore' tap.


Below: VD now re-enters that LB's zone, but this time is behind the LB. The SS (blue) is caught guarding air. 26 yard gain.


HarRo using personnel, shifting, and formation to get the desired matchup. It's so creative and is on display nearly every week. There was a Cosell breakdown of how they did this to HOU for the VD touchdown. Can they keep up this creativity?
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by LVJay:
He's good at working on that triple-chin-action play!

During the broadcast, they show Roman in the booth, then this play happens.

The 49ers come out in an odd personnel package with 3 TEs. ARI counters with 4DL 4LB 3DB. FS is in black, SS in blue circle.
Below: All three TEs have lined up to one side of the formation. Kyle is lined up wide left with a CB (off screen). This play is made to attack the LB straight ahead of Goodwin.


Below: VD (red arrow) has shifted over to the left side. VD is now Honeybadger's (black) assignment.


Below: Vance has now shifted over to the left side and lines up between Kyle and VD. The FS (black) now switches over to take Vance. That targeted LB is now on Vernon. Perfect. The ball is snapped before Vance is even set.


Below: I thought this was a key part in VD's route. VD has to get behind that LB so that if it's zone, the LB will pass VD off to the deep SS (blue), or anyone, because that LB can't leave his zone assignment (black square). VD has now exited that LB's zone, as far as that LB is concerned. You can see that LB giving the old 'he's not mine anymore' tap.


Below: VD now re-enters that LB's zone, but this time is behind the LB. The SS (blue) is caught guarding air. 26 yard gain.


HarRo using personnel, shifting, and formation to get the desired matchup. It's so creative and is on display nearly every week. There was a Cosell breakdown of how they did this to HOU for the VD touchdown. Can they keep up this creativity?

THIS is a beautifully schemed play, no question. What is special about this formation is that we can run out of it as well. This is the staple of a Roman formation; that you can run or pass out of the same formation. One can actually set up the other. If you look closely, at first, the Cards correctly stack 10 in the box and if we HAD run, it probably would have been a no-gainer. Fortunately, it was a pass and VD in motion all but told the Cards that moving guys over and out of the box and off the LOS. A play like this was highlighted with Fitzgerald. Obviously, his hamstrings were toast and naturally, got pwnd in the press game up at the LOS. He was a non-factor against Seattle. So, to give him a clean/free release, they simply motined him across the formation and ran him out of the slot. The CB backed off, Larry got a few uncontested yards to work with and the result was a first down. Smart coaching on that one.
Originally posted by NCommand:
THIS is a beautifully schemed play, no question. What is special about this formation is that we can run out of it as well. This is the staple of a Roman formation; that you can run or pass out of the same formation. One can actually set up the other. If you look closely, at first, the Cards correctly stack 10 in the box and if we HAD run, it probably would have been a no-gainer. Fortunately, it was a pass and VD in motion all but told the Cards that moving guys over and out of the box and off the LOS. A play like this was highlighted with Fitzgerald. Obviously, his hamstrings were toast and naturally, got pwnd in the press game up at the LOS. He was a non-factor against Seattle. So, to give him a clean/free release, they simply motined him across the formation and ran him out of the slot. The CB backed off, Larry got a few uncontested yards to work with and the result was a first down. Smart coaching on that one.

I don't watch tape of every team, but I can't name another team that passes so much, with intermediate to deep routes, out of personnel packages that imply 'run'. If anyone knows of another team, please share. Roman is doing a phenomenal job of utilizing VD this season (minus the games where VD's hamstring was bad). If anyone had told me that VD went for stretches last season where he had 0 catches in games (with Kap at the helm), I would have never believed them after seeing some of the plays Roman has drawn up for VD.
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by NCommand:
THIS is a beautifully schemed play, no question. What is special about this formation is that we can run out of it as well. This is the staple of a Roman formation; that you can run or pass out of the same formation. One can actually set up the other. If you look closely, at first, the Cards correctly stack 10 in the box and if we HAD run, it probably would have been a no-gainer. Fortunately, it was a pass and VD in motion all but told the Cards that moving guys over and out of the box and off the LOS. A play like this was highlighted with Fitzgerald. Obviously, his hamstrings were toast and naturally, got pwnd in the press game up at the LOS. He was a non-factor against Seattle. So, to give him a clean/free release, they simply motined him across the formation and ran him out of the slot. The CB backed off, Larry got a few uncontested yards to work with and the result was a first down. Smart coaching on that one.

I don't watch tape of every team, but I can't name another team that passes so much, with intermediate to deep routes, out of personnel packages that imply 'run'. If anyone knows of another team, please share. Roman is doing a phenomenal job of utilizing VD this season (minus the games where VD's hamstring was bad). If anyone had told me that VD went for stretches last season where he had 0 catches in games (with Kap at the helm), I would have never believed them after seeing some of the plays Roman has drawn up for VD.

No, it's unique, no question. Totally different type of NFL offense (good and bad). I'm even more curious to see how HaRoman adjust to the DC's and players having insight more into it. Many formations tip off whether it's a run or pass...while others, like this one, we can run or pass out of it causing confusion for the defense. That said, if I was a DC, I could stop this offense rather easily if I had the correct personnel to match up.

How to deflate the Niner's passing game:
I'd play man, press, physical and suffocating up at the LOS on both Boldin and VD with your CB's and two higher S's. Make them beat you OR hold them off long enough to blow up the timing of the pre-determined, one-read passing play. 4-man DL is best (good pass rushers). I'd bring quite a few middle LB blitzes as well while rushing my DE/OLB's wider (to help contain the edges in case CK tried to run; discipline is key here). Like the 0-blitz used by the Ravens in the Superbowl, pressure up the gut forces CK to not on stay with the annointed receiver BUT throw it to him even earlier (which in this scenario, would be taken away by press coverage). Done. The middle LB run blitz also helps stuff Gore more.

That's not to say Roman wouldn't (or couldn't) adjust but he would be forced to then start targeting others in the run (Hunter/James or different types of run formations) and passing game (Baldwin, Manningham, Moore, Williams, etc.) and he has shown a tendency to be slow to adjust or not adjust at all so I'd take my chances there, no doubt.
Originally posted by NCommand:
No, it's unique, no question. Totally different type of NFL offense (good and bad). I'm even more curious to see how HaRoman adjust to the DC's and players having insight more into it. Many formations tip off whether it's a run or pass...while others, like this one, we can run or pass out of it causing confusion for the defense. That said, if I was a DC, I could stop this offense rather easily if I had the correct personnel to match up.

How to deflate the Niner's passing game:
I'd play man, press, physical and suffocating up at the LOS on both Boldin and VD with your CB's and two higher S's. Make them beat you OR hold them off long enough to blow up the timing of the pre-determined, one-read passing play. 4-man DL is best (good pass rushers). I'd bring quite a few middle LB blitzes as well while rushing my DE/OLB's wider (to help contain the edges in case CK tried to run; discipline is key here). Like the 0-blitz used by the Ravens in the Superbowl, pressure up the gut forces CK to not on stay with the annointed receiver BUT throw it to him even earlier (which in this scenario, would be taken away by press coverage). Done. The middle LB run blitz also helps stuff Gore more.

That's not to say Roman wouldn't (or couldn't) adjust but he would be forced to then start targeting others in the run (Hunter/James or different types of run formations) and passing game (Baldwin, Manningham, Moore, Williams, etc.) and he has shown a tendency to be slow to adjust or not adjust at all so I'd take my chances there, no doubt.

I agree that pressing the WRs is the way to go based on their inability to quickly get off the LOS. Kyle and Baldwin in particular. Ah but that is where Roman starts to bunch formations and make pressing the WRs at the LOS difficult. I don't know why teams continue to allow VD a free release and begin his route right at the snap.

In the play above, the OLB that is lined up mirroring VD avoids VD to rush the passer. I would sacrifice QB pressure just to bump Vernon at the LOS. The guy is blazing fast, usually covered by a FS/SS, and continues to get a free release. There's probably something I'm not thinking of, maybe he's just too big and fast to bump, but it's a bit puzzling to me why VD is allowed to run free off the line. I don't mean for the guy covering him to bump him, I mean one of the defender's within reach on the DL. The guy covering VD is usually a few yards off the LOS because they respect VD's speed and give him some cushion.
Originally posted by thl408:
I agree that pressing the WRs is the way to go based on their inability to quickly get off the LOS. Kyle and Baldwin in particular. Ah but that is where Roman starts to bunch formations and make pressing the WRs at the LOS difficult. I don't know why teams continue to allow VD a free release and begin his route right at the snap.

In the play above, the OLB that is lined up mirroring VD avoids VD to rush the passer. I would sacrifice QB pressure just to bump Vernon at the LOS. The guy is blazing fast, usually covered by a FS/SS, and continues to get a free release. There's probably something I'm not thinking of, maybe he's just too big and fast to bump, but it's a bit puzzling to me why VD is allowed to run free off the line. I don't mean for the guy covering him to bump him, I mean one of the defender's within reach on the DL. The guy covering VD is usually a few yards off the LOS because they respect VD's speed and give him some cushion.

If I'm a press team, I "love" the bunch formation. Why? B/c one good press can blow up the entire play...remember that critical 3rd down completion to Boldin from CK on the broken play? Where the DB chucked Williams right into Boldin blowing it up? That said, you still need to stay with your man...Boldin did a great job recovering, getting lost behind the defense and making that veteran play.

But to your point, like the Cards last night, there are several formations and motions that can be used to help get a cleaner release off the LOS. That said, if you are a successful press CB, you just wait and press him once he gets past the LOS and for the 5 yards (reroute him) or in the case of Seattle, prison-rape him until the play if over. LOL
Originally posted by thl408:
Originally posted by LVJay:
He's good at working on that triple-chin-action play!

During the broadcast, they show Roman in the booth, then this play happens.

The 49ers come out in an odd personnel package with 3 TEs. ARI counters with 4DL 4LB 3DB. FS is in black, SS in blue circle.
Below: All three TEs have lined up to one side of the formation. Kyle is lined up wide left with a CB (off screen). This play is made to attack the LB straight ahead of Goodwin.


Below: VD (red arrow) has shifted over to the left side. VD is now Honeybadger's (black) assignment.


Below: Vance has now shifted over to the left side and lines up between Kyle and VD. The FS (black) now switches over to take Vance. That targeted LB is now on Vernon. Perfect. The ball is snapped before Vance is even set.


Below: I thought this was a key part in VD's route. VD has to get behind that LB so that if it's zone, the LB will pass VD off to the deep SS (blue), or anyone, because that LB can't leave his zone assignment (black square). VD has now exited that LB's zone, as far as that LB is concerned. You can see that LB giving the old 'he's not mine anymore' tap.


Below: VD now re-enters that LB's zone, but this time is behind the LB. The SS (blue) is caught guarding air. 26 yard gain.


HarRo using personnel, shifting, and formation to get the desired matchup. It's so creative and is on display nearly every week. There was a Cosell breakdown of how they did this to HOU for the VD touchdown. Can they keep up this creativity?

Except Roman is not our pass coordinator, so no not really.

My understanding of our play calling procedure as it sits is this. Roman chooses a run play, Morton chooses a pass play, both are relayed down to Harbaugh who then listens to Romans suggestion for the down and distance, but Harbaugh makes the final decision. This procedure is why we are often sooo damn late getting the play in and to the line of scrimmage.

As I understand it Roman is the genius behind the creative running and the passing game is all on Morton.
[ Edited by WINiner on Oct 18, 2013 at 5:08 PM ]
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