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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
In retrospect, Dilfer said his criticisms had as much to do with the state of the 49ers' offense on Nov. 11 as it did with Kaepernick. He labeled the 49ers "a circa 1970s passing game" which relies heavily on the run and with play-action designed to get only one or two receivers open.

"They're mad at me for saying that, but they don't have a real complex passing game that has multiple progressions built-in, protection adjustments, a lot of layers to it,"

Dilfer said.Since the Carolina game, Dilfer sees a much more decisive quarterback, citing the return of wide receiver Michael Crabtree as a factor."The best thing he's doing is letting it rip, making big-time throws into contested coverage and getting the ball out of his hand,"

Dilfer said. "And when it does break down and his instinct is to run, he obviously has tremendous ability to do so, as we saw against Green Bay."

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_24877842/espns-dilfer-backs-down-kaepernick-criticism

So what you're saying is someone other than us Zoners were actually right about the AR offense and it's not just what "amateurs and fanboys" think? We keep saying this and the more NFL analysts and people outside of our discussion confirm what we've been saying, we still get told (however beautifully with "All-22" pictures and diagrams and videos) that we're not seeing that and this really is a modern, pro-style, passing offense. Moreover it confirms that if ONE piece of this offense is missing, it becomes almost non-functional against better opponents.


It just simply isn't - at least not most of the time.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/2014/01/inside-the-49ers/it-comes-to-pass-for-49ers-panthers/


NCommand ..... I'm sure you saw this ... sounds like what both you and I and others have been saying....

Trent Dilfer, who played for Shula when Shula was the Buccaneers' offensive coordinator from 1996 to 1999 and currently is an analyst for ESPN, recently told a Bay Area radio station there are no progressions in the 49ers' passing game. "They're calling a play for a defense, for a player and, if that play is called wrong, that second, third, fourth option isn't going to get the ball very often. They don't have the type of offensive structure and Colin isn't the type of quarterback that there are five eligible receivers and anyone can get the ball."

This style of passing offense allows coaches to do most of the thinking, and it makes quarterback, the most difficult position in sports, much easier to play: Just fire the ball to the primary receiver if he's open and, if he's covered, run for your life.

When the 49ers' passing game is clicking and Kaepernick is hitting wide-open receiver after wide-open receiver, that means Greg Roman is guessing correctly. He's calling plays designed to get one player open against the type of coverage he expects the opposing team to use on that play. When Roman guesses incorrectly, you don't see Kaepernick reset his feet and find his second and third targets. There are no second and third targets. Those guys are decoys clearing space. When Roman guesses incorrectly, Kaepernick has to flip the ball to a running back in the flat, or scramble, or get sacked.

Sometimes Roman guesses correctly and the play fails anyway. This happened against the Packers last Sunday. Roman called a pass for Vernon Davis, who ran deep and out toward the right sideline and beat his man. Anquan Boldin was supposed to sprint to the end zone and clear space for Davis, but Boldin stopped sprinting 10 yards into his route and started jogging. Boldin knew he wasn't getting the ball. He was a decoy, and receivers don't run as hard when they are decoys. It's human nature.

Tramon Williams, the Packers' cornerback covering Boldin, saw him start to jog and stopped covering him. Williams saw Kaepernick wind up and throw to Davis.Williams broke on the pass and easily intercepted it.




Yes, I know many don't want to hear this is the type of passing offense we have, but it is. I think as Colin becomes more comfortable, we will see more pro-style. However it would seem that NCommand and others here aren't the only ones who have been seeing the AR offense as the primary passing philosophy. I know people will drag out the diagrams, but I'm just inclined to believe analysis from Dilfer, Gruden, Young and others ....
[ Edited by NinerGM on Jan 10, 2014 at 8:46 AM ]
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
spizzy---Texas Horns already have Strong from Louisville( I think). I guess Penn St it is, Bud. I still think Chicago or Minn. will get him as he has beaten GB 3x in a row...and they like that.

GM as you well know one of my 3 biggest gripes with HaRo has been non-utilization of players until injury (Tramaine, who should have started long before, and replaced an injured DB). The WR and TE and RB list of receivers is tops of my list. You mentioned most who SHOULD have gotten chances to show if they can catch or not. The really bad thing about this is that when we go to draft and pick up another WR, how do they know the new guy is better than 5 other guys we have sitting on the bench, literally untested. NOW THAT is just plain foolish and not looking ahead. Stupid. STOOPID.

The RZ play calls, nobody here could or would defend going back to SB. And then the AR vs PS vs WCO....what we really need is to tailor our O to our players. Spread /WCO seems like a really good way to go for me. That would suit kap well, I believe, and get the other 20% out of him that poor playcalling has prevented. He could REALLY be good...just not in our current O, whatever the hell it is. But not having multiple targets with this talent....3 all pros to throw to is just plain nutty.

the clock issues still remain, and again, we are winning anyway. Running into a box 8-10 is a proven loser, yet we still do it and still....have won the last 7 games.

I guess my question would be, just exactly how good could this team be with improvement in the above. Right now I would say unimaginable. And yet, we keep on winning. Amazing...except for one thing. Even if we don't win, this is the most talented team overall, of any I have seen of the 49ers and that goes all the way back 37 yrs to 1977. Our talent at virtually all slots save one or two is just awesome. Be nice if the coaching caught up. Imagine that...

The defense is well ahead of the offense, but the offensive player development is really embarassing.
Originally posted by NinerGM:
The defense is well ahead of the offense, but the offensive player development is really embarassing.

This is what makes it so difficult to analyze what each offensive player is contributing to problems. The passing game is way behind the running game, just as the offense is behind the defense. Is Kaepernick regressing? Or is the offense keeping him from utilizing his instincts? Will they open up the offense now? Can they?

Only the future will tell and I wonder if the KC Chiefs will jump up next year compared to this offense. I have more faith in Reid's offense than Roman/Harbuagh's. That would be a crying shame and it would really irritate the hell out of me!
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by Phoenix49ers:
In retrospect, Dilfer said his criticisms had as much to do with the state of the 49ers' offense on Nov. 11 as it did with Kaepernick. He labeled the 49ers "a circa 1970s passing game" which relies heavily on the run and with play-action designed to get only one or two receivers open.

"They're mad at me for saying that, but they don't have a real complex passing game that has multiple progressions built-in, protection adjustments, a lot of layers to it,"

Dilfer said.Since the Carolina game, Dilfer sees a much more decisive quarterback, citing the return of wide receiver Michael Crabtree as a factor."The best thing he's doing is letting it rip, making big-time throws into contested coverage and getting the ball out of his hand,"

Dilfer said. "And when it does break down and his instinct is to run, he obviously has tremendous ability to do so, as we saw against Green Bay."

http://www.mercurynews.com/49ers/ci_24877842/espns-dilfer-backs-down-kaepernick-criticism

Dilfer, Gruden, Tirico, Silver, etc...Dilfer again, etc. AR theory confirmed again. To be fair, I have seen more PS plays since Crabtree came back (naturally) and esp. in the playoff game as we were going to 3, 4 and even 5 WR sets a lot (usually a tip off of a PS spread passing design).

My question is whether or not this offense was used with Alex? Did the coaching staff change the offense to best suite Kap and if so I think we can assume that it will grow with Kap's maturity. Can we fault the OC for adapting to the best fit with kap while we always complain about coaches not changing to fit the personal?
Have to take the good with the bad... The consolation, if Roman guesses wrong more than right this weekend, is that we probably lose and he gets hired by the Vikings. If Roman guesses right more than wrong, we win, move on to the NFC Championship game, and the Vikings hire somebody else, who's not still in the tournament.

It's either a trophy or a new OC, at least that's how I'm looking at it.
  • sfout
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Originally posted by Shorteous:
My question is whether or not this offense was used with Alex? Did the coaching staff change the offense to best suite Kap and if so I think we can assume that it will grow with Kap's maturity. Can we fault the OC for adapting to the best fit with kap while we always complain about coaches not changing to fit the personal?

It was. The main difference is Alex routinely threw quick slants on the AR routes and found secondary targets in 2011 but that is how Harbaugh got what he got out of Smith. Smith's strengths we're always on short to intermediate routes down the middle of the field or in the flat out wide. He told Smith to go the primary target, roll and look for 1 more target and if they aren't there to take a sack, get back to LOS, or throw it away. Efficiency was and still is the name of the game, we traded Smith's veteran look on the game for Kaep's rocket arm and scrambling ability.

Best game to demonstrate Alex's use in our offense was the second half rally against Philly in 2011. First TD to Morgan was on a slant, he was the called target the entire play, the LB had to honor the TE for a split second and even then was still close to make a play if not for the quick release, Morgan made guys miss and scored. Second TD to Vernon it is hard to tell if VD was the primary cause Smith actually looks left but you can see the middle DB move that way and Smith immediately goes back to Vernon who was right the middle of 3 eagles and turned and scored.

http://www.49ers.com/video/videos/Highlights-49ers-Beat--Eagles-24-23/a5271187-3699-442a-a505-c4cc590b9acf

Smith was far more mature in his QB play than Kaep is right now. He had a bit more leeway than Colin and he was mature and comfortable enough to freelance if he had too. Harbaugh was very happy to dink and dunk his way down the field using traditional plays like the slants with Smith, with Colin we see a lot more crossing routes and out routes.

With Kaep, he isn't as comfortable in the pocket as Smith yet, consequently not as happy to take a sack. If that primary read isn't open yet Colin almost aways just looks to run, if he trusts the receiver and the play he'll throw it up anyway (see the crazy throws to Boldin that work OR the plays like that throw to VD that intercepted).

While I agree with the other posters that say our offense falls apart if we are missing 1 piece it isn't even that because as plays like that interception against GB demonstrate....Our offense actually hinges on full out effort by the decoys. If decoys don't go 110% on their routes than the play is doomed to fail even if it is called correctly.
[ Edited by sfout on Jan 11, 2014 at 9:34 AM ]
  • sfout
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Originally posted by vermonator:
Have to take the good with the bad... The consolation, if Roman guesses wrong more than right this weekend, is that we probably lose and he gets hired by the Vikings. If Roman guesses right more than wrong, we win, move on to the NFC Championship game, and the Vikings hire somebody else, who's not still in the tournament.

It's either a trophy or a new OC, at least that's how I'm looking at it.

Why would the Vikings not hire him if we win? What is another 1 to 3 weeks without him officially being their HC going to negatively do to them? If he is the best candidate for the job they'll hire him regardless.
  • sfout
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I watched this and I have hard time saying that Crabtree was NOT the primary/ar guy on all of these completions. A few of the passes he is blatantly the only read, a few others you can tell Kaep never looks away from the part of the field that Crabs and 1 other target are in, the others are the plays that Kaep extends a few more seconds and they still look like Crabtree was THE guy if you look at the routes that the other WRs/TEs run.
Originally posted by sfout:

I watched this and I have hard time saying that Crabtree was NOT the primary/ar guy on all of these completions. A few of the passes he is blatantly the only read, a few others you can tell Kaep never looks away from the part of the field that Crabs and 1 other target are in, the others are the plays that Kaep extends a few more seconds and they still look like Crabtree was THE guy if you look at the routes that the other WRs/TEs run.

That's why many call this passing offense so basic. So many times there is only 1 reciever on a route, or they even have several recievers going to the same spot. We want to pass more, but either don't have the capacity to create good passing plays or just sit within the system they have set in place. It is almost like everyone knows who the ball is going to in the huddle. The audibling likely just changes the WR which is being targeted.

If we had a creative passing game which would have our WR, RB, and TE running free, this team would be an unstoppable machine. Teams with creative passing games can just plug any WR, RB, and TE into their system and make them successful.
All these interviews better not screw with Roman's head tomorrow i see this as a distraction having Minnesota coming to interviews these guys later on today.
  • Jcool
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Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:
All these interviews better not screw with Roman's head tomorrow i see this as a distraction having Minnesota coming to interviews these guys later on today.

Just because you think it is a distraction doesn't mean it actually is.
  • sfout
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Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:
All these interviews better not screw with Roman's head tomorrow i see this as a distraction having Minnesota coming to interviews these guys later on today.

Just because you think it is a distraction doesn't mean it actually is.

Seriously for the thousandth time. Today is the best day for it to happen that is not Monday. Today is a rest day and walkthrough with players, every other day was game planning and strategy.

Hell if anything it will motivate Roman to call an amazing game if his chances can be impacted by it all.
[ Edited by sfout on Jan 11, 2014 at 12:03 PM ]
Originally posted by sfout:
Originally posted by Jcool:
Originally posted by Tru2RedNGold25:
All these interviews better not screw with Roman's head tomorrow i see this as a distraction having Minnesota coming to interviews these guys later on today.

Just because you think it is a distraction doesn't mean it actually is.

Seriously for the thousandth time. Today is the best day for to happen that is not Monday. Today is a rest day and walkthrough with players, every other day was game planning and strategy.

Hell if anything it will motivate Roman to call an amazing game if his chances can be impacted by it all.

Plus today is the last day assistants with teams that played wild card weekend can interview for head coaching positions. Teams can not interview anymore assistants until their teams are eliminated after today
  • Jcool
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Oscar ‏@BetterRivals

For people who complain about Greg Roman: How about that modified veer on the goal line TD and the Boldin double move?
Greg Roman KILLED it today. I know he has bad games, but he KILLED it today. Amazing job.