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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Adrian, you basically just reinforced my fears...ie, does roman, or really HaRo have the "IT" to push us over the goal line. Horrid game planning, more horrible play calling against the elite teams (and no I didn't forget we crunched a very good GB team in game 1)....can HaRo overcome the "fear" of playing an elite team? Now, we got a partial answer against SEA at home. My question is that for a guy I pegged as the savior of this franchise, is Harbaugh able to put a string of well planned , well called games together against the very types of teams we have lost to this yr? I still believe in harbaugh, but I am suspicious that when the rubber hits the road, he goes into some kind of shell...the kind we call "playing not to lose".

Kap is another issue. I had not been convinced that he was the problem or was it the playcalls or game planning. In fact it was a combination. Kap's shortcomings had been staring down receivers, running out of time on 24 second clock, not seeing open receivers, completely losing his ability to hit anyone on a short hitter over the middle or slant "short 4-6 yrd" pass. After reviewing jonnydel's incredible "learning tapes", a lot of what kap has done I never noticed. Now, whether we have an AR or PS playcalled, one of out best outcomes comes from busted plays...and there kap is a wizard, whether in a Houdini escape or those two recent sideline passes of 15 and 23 yds, where both receivers were standing just inside the OOB line...that is where I see greatness.

From the above, the coaching, playcalling is by far and away the most troublesome. I didn't mention kap's great points as most know them. In slow mo, with arrow instruction, it is apparent that kap is playing very well, except for the lapses noted above. Ergo, the playcalling, the balling up into a protective shell on O playcalls...those are the things that will bring us down unless HaRo can overcome what makes one wonder "are they afraid of being bold, and doing the things necessary to go out and take away a game from an elite competitor?". At present, just guessing, I would say that Coach H is on the precipice of overcoming the need to "play not to lose"...thus causing a loss.

Also, the "brain fades" in the games with ELITE teams...I have no idea what that means unless it again is, "playing not to lose". Can HaRo overcome that insidious, treacherous thot process? I don't know because HaRo has beaten elites, and then next week fallen off a cliff. I wonder at times if kap ever worries "if Coach will have his schidt together today or not?" Probably not, as kap has more than enough to worry about anyway.

What I do see is a great team, with superior talent, poised to win. Question is will Coach H, or HaRo, take the leap?

pas, you bring up a fantastic point in terms of "mindset." My biggest issue to date I have with this coaching staff is the philosophies they subscribe too. On ST, it's all about the fair catch. On defense, if we're up, it's all about the prevent-a-win defense. 3rd and 5? CB's are playing off 15 yards...keep everything in front of you. On offense, it's all about TOP, no TO's and a rudimentary college-like AR (safe) passing game to support the clock-eating running game. 3rd and 15? Get ready for the draw up the middle. Clearly there is a conservative coaching mindset...a "philosophy," if you will that all subscribe too. And you know what? It's going to work a good portion of the time for a variety of reasons...BUT, when you get into the playoffs and you play teams with quality DC's with quality personnel, a conservative mindset can lose you a critical game too. One thing we always see is that when we play quality playoff teams, we see the long grocery list of magnified issues come to the surface (I actually created a thread on these recently just to help gauge if we are improving or getting worse from game to game - b/c you never stay the same).

The fact that Roman holds plays in his back pocket, to me, speaks volumes about this offensive philosophy as well. Rather then showing all of our cards all year long (i.e. perfecting them) and forcing DC's to game plan for everything, Roman is hoping to lull a DC to sleep and then smoke-and-mirror them with a back-pocket play, catch them off guard and THAT PLAY being the difference in a game. Interesting...thought on this mentality?

It's going to be interesting to see how HaRoMan adjust to the huge loss of Bruce Miller and if we'll continue to take baby steps forward with the additions of Crabtree and Manningham back esp. with a banged up Gore now. Personnel issues sometimes force a coaches hand to rethink their own conservative coaching philosophy. And sometimes that ends up being a blessing in disguise.

PS: Your bolded is a HUGE concern of mine. Without a DOUBT, the best plays we've had over the past several games since Crabtree has been back have been on these broken AR or PS plays...the ad lib plays. On one hand, this is great b/c we were horrendous in this category earlier in the year when the two main AR's were bottled up in VD and Boldin but on the other hand, we shouldn't be having to rely so much on all these incredible individual efforts either...they may come back and bite us in the playoffs.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 20, 2013 at 10:35 AM ]
NC, like I posted tongue in cheek way back, "Maybe we should just run a hurry up O, with Crabs and Boldin just running 8 yd crosses every play, and Vernon doing the JET STREAK every play(he would need a breather now and then), and then let the cards fall where they may. Kap gets blitzed, or they lay off, no matter, when a play breaks down, kap just makes his own. (This implies that #81, #85, #15, and Baldwin/vance/hunter/whoever all are looking at the Qb from the moment they leave the LOS). If we just ran that play repeatedly, it would be fascinating to see if firehouse football worked out as well as all these fancy, integral 9 man plays. Of course, our RB would be used half the time.

Watching Peyton, brady and Brees, I know our guy is way better runner than any of those 3. Would firehouse football aka "jailbreak football", with kap making it up as he goes, be as good as the complex schemes we run at present? I suspect not, but it sure makes one wonder. With receivers making it up as they go and kap rolling out, I bet we would win one helluva lot of games including Frank, naturally.

NC it is this thought that goes thru my mind when frank is turned loose on a box 10 and gets a yard. Or kap throws 3 15 yarders up in SEA in the mud, rain and wind. (all incomplete). Then I see Jonnydel's breakdowns and I come back to reality. But point of fact, our one best situation is a broken play and kap and receivers working to get open...or kap torching somebody for 18 yd runs. My guess is in playoffs against all ELITE teams, kap will be in busted plays a lot. And that is where he really shines. Advantage...49ers.
Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?

that time was from april on.

they don't do it just cause they don't there's no other reason why
Originally posted by NCommand:
Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?

Yes, they need to get everyone up to speed for the playoffs! You don't save something for the playoffs or it will be rusty and very inconsistent. If they can go into the playoffs with a healthy and tuned up Crabtree and Manningham, along with VD and Boldin, the pass game could be crazy good!
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
no.
not even close.
cause the losses weren't because of execution it was because the entire plan was stupid.

1wr sets against 9 man fronts makes sense on what planet?

passing when a team gives up 5 yards per carry makes sense on what planet?

so trying to make it that, isn't going to work. that's not it.

What this guy said. Also, the playing not to lose is eventually going to cost us. Instead of keeping our boots to the throats of opposing teams, we let them score before half time and give them life. I can understand that to a certain extent, but it happens far too often with this team. Harbaugh and roman shut down the offense even if we are only up by 10 points at the start of the 3rd quarter. They roll up into a little ball and are totally content with punting the ball and relying on the defense.
Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
What this guy said. Also, the playing not to lose is eventually going to cost us. Instead of keeping our boots to the throats of opposing teams, we let them score before half time and give them life. I can understand that to a certain extent, but it happens far too often with this team. Harbaugh and roman shut down the offense even if we are only up by 10 points at the start of the 3rd quarter. They roll up into a little ball and are totally content with punting the ball and relying on the defense.

that's both sides. they turn it off and turn it on.
hopefully from here on out it's turn it on and never turn off. with the calls and aggressiveness. there's no need to take it easy on anybody in the nfl they get paid good money to get beat, do them the honor of doing it without ceasing.

i guarantee 2 bombs to crabs this week. last week he had his explosion back and speed as well. and he's so damn hungry.. just watching the game again and he just wants the ball. when he catches it he's just like i want more and more and more and more lol

davis is the only one of the 3 that's nonchalant about the whole thing
One last thot and I will quit. The losses to 4 of the 6 elites still bothers me more than any other thing. I touched on it above, but after thinking last nite, I wonder if there isn't a bit of coaching schizophrenia on HaRo'part when we play ELITEs. During 10 games this season they called ok to good games, had ok to good play calls. But in 4 elite loss games the game plan and play calling went schizophrenic and had no relationship to game plans and play calling in the other 10 games. Why? Why? I still think JH is afraid not to lose in those elite games( esp the Panthers, 10-9 ? are you kidding me?)and the only thing I can take away from those elite losses was this schizophrenic "play not to lose" because these guys are really a good team...a tough team. Play conservative, don't do anything risky, just play conservative football and maybe we get lucky and outplay them.

Looking at jonnydel's and Thls, and adrians breakdowns, it is obvious our coaches know what they are doing. I can't see anything other than a totally different mindset in playing elites. It is almost as if Coach H doesn't trust what they are currently doing. And in those first two losses, they just flat went 180 degrees from the successful game plan against GB. Against the Panthers it was the same. They were afraid to be bold,, to run the same stuff that has been successful all yr....because they might lose. This schizophrenic take on game planning and playcalling has got to stop. N.O. game, what in the world were they doing ? HaRo just didn't believe their game planning and play calling could match N.O. and so we went out and played conservatively, completely getting away from what we do well.

Obviously in the second SEA game, the game plan and play calling reverted back to what we do best...run frank, work crabs, Vernon, boldin. We did not work Baldwin, vance, LMj, or hunter...and we should have . Getting more of our talent utilized is the other bug a boo, but now wth miller out, Dix is in, finally, and maybe, just maybe we see other guys playing that should be out there also. And maybe Coach H has gotten rid of this "playing not to lose". That sure is a crappy game plan to go into a game with, and I swear in our 4 losses, that WAS our game plan and play calling.

Good news is he DID beat SEA, and now that he knows he can, maybe we won't see any more "playing not to lose"
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
One last thot and I will quit. The losses to 4 of the 6 elites still bothers me more than any other thing. I touched on it above, but after thinking last nite, I wonder if there isn't a bit of coaching schizophrenia on HaRo'part when we play ELITEs. During 10 games this season they called ok to good games, had ok to good play calls. But in 4 elite loss games the game plan and play calling went schizophrenic and had no relationship to game plans and play calling in the other 10 games. Why? Why? I still think JH is afraid not to lose in those elite games( esp the Panthers, 10-9 ? are you kidding me?)and the only thing I can take away from those elite losses was this schizophrenic "play not to lose" because these guys are really a good team...a tough team. Play conservative, don't do anything risky, just play conservative football and maybe we get lucky and outplay them.

Looking at jonnydel's and Thls, and adrians breakdowns, it is obvious our coaches know what they are doing. I can't see anything other than a totally different mindset in playing elites. It is almost as if Coach H doesn't trust what they are currently doing. And in those first two losses, they just flat went 180 degrees from the successful game plan against GB. Against the Panthers it was the same. They were afraid to be bold,, to run the same stuff that has been successful all yr....because they might lose. This schizophrenic take on game planning and playcalling has got to stop. N.O. game, what in the world were they doing ? HaRo just didn't believe their game planning and play calling could match N.O. and so we went out and played conservatively, completely getting away from what we do well.

Obviously in the second SEA game, the game plan and play calling reverted back to what we do best...run frank, work crabs, Vernon, boldin. We did not work Baldwin, vance, LMj, or hunter...and we should have . Getting more of our talent utilized is the other bug a boo, but now wth miller out, Dix is in, finally, and maybe, just maybe we see other guys playing that should be out there also. And maybe Coach H has gotten rid of this "playing not to lose". That sure is a crappy game plan to go into a game with, and I swear in our 4 losses, that WAS our game plan and play calling.

Good news is he DID beat SEA, and now that he knows he can, maybe we won't see any more "playing not to lose"

Everything and I mean everything, comes down to your original offensive philosophy (mindset). That is heavily ingrained like DNA. Some coaches in the NFL have and will adapt like Tom McCoughlin during their Superbowl run/win and others like Mike Singletary, Mike Martz and Jimmy Raye, never have and never will.
Originally posted by jonesadrian:
he did so much good today. he's coming around let's hope he keeps a level head and continues this trend.

more vance

and more hunter

let's keep it going all the way to being what we could and should be


How many plays does Vance get a game? 1 maybe. The one play he blew against the panthers and that was it. Totally stupid. We have to develop players. Roman needs to do this.
On ESPN this morning Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden were discussing our offense: "Now without Michael Crabtree for a good part of the season it was manufacturing a way to get Anquan Boldin or Vernon Davis free..."
Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.
Originally posted by okdkid:
Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.


lol
  • Jcool
  • Veteran
  • Posts: 13,370
Originally posted by okdkid:
Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.

And as we know that is the #1 thing you look for in a coach.
[ Edited by Jcool on Dec 22, 2013 at 8:33 AM ]
Originally posted by NCommand:
On ESPN this morning Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden were discussing our offense: "Now without Michael Crabtree for a good part of the season it was manufacturing a way to get Anquan Boldin or Vernon Davis free..."

When I went back and looked at the film. The reason the passing game sunk in the Colts game was because NO ONE got open on a lot off different passing plays. I'm talking about what you refer to as PS passing plays. The colts were running a lot of man coverage because they were able to pinch the pocket with Mathis and our receivers couldn't run simple routes to get open. When you can't throw the ball, you can't sustain drives, when you can't sustain drives, you can't run the ball.

It's really easy to blame one person when the whole thing goes awry. However, these players have to be professionals and execute their job. Personally, I think it's more on Trent Baalke to blame for our passing game woes. We should've aquired another receiver the moment Crabs got hurt, but we didn't. We knew some top receivers were on the trading block, but we didn't go after them. He drafted A.J. Jenkins with a 1st round pick....... he brought in a bunch of garbage players into camp, then traded Jenkins for another bust....(we would've been better off acquiring a 7th round pick for him). It wasn't like Crabs got hurt during training camp; Baalke knew since May that Crabs was down.

A carpenter is only as good as his tools and Baalke gave Roman some useless tools.