Greg Roman, is he really good?

thL, your point is well taken that it is, after all, Kap who ultimately decides who he is going to throw to, and sometimes, covered or not. However....kap is NOT the HC nor is he the OC. He is the QB, and Qb take orders from their immediate superiors. In this particular instance, JH and roman should have literally forced kap to throw to vance, Baldwin, lmj, and hunter. A simple, "KAP, my man, we need to know what our guys on the bench have...or don't have. We are expecting you, with a 25 pt lead in this game to go out there and help us find out. NOW GO DO IT" .

I can guarnandamtee it that conversation never took place, because if so we would know right this very moment if we are loaded with another TE and 3 RBs who are schidt hot receivers, and can actually be plugged in to WR or TE at any time and even better, as bailouts in the backfield. None of that ever happened. So it does in fact run thru kap, but this is COACHING SCREW UP 101 and it is on Jimbo...and to some extent Trent. roman is complicit just because he should have insisted knowing this also...altho it is a joke to think roman would even consider something like that.

So thl good try, but evidence is against you.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
thL, your point is well taken that it is, after all, Kap who ultimately decides who he is going to throw to, and sometimes, covered or not. However....kap is NOT the HC nor is he the OC. He is the QB, and Qb take orders from their immediate superiors. In this particular instance, JH and roman should have literally forced kap to throw to vance, Baldwin, lmj, and hunter. A simple, "KAP, my man, we need to know what our guys on the bench have...or don't have. We are expecting you, with a 25 pt lead in this game to go out there and help us find out. NOW GO DO IT" .

I can guarnandamtee it that conversation never took place, because if so we would know right this very moment if we are loaded with another TE and 3 RBs who are schidt hot receivers, and can actually be plugged in to WR or TE at any time and even better, as bailouts in the backfield. None of that ever happened. So it does in fact run thru kap, but this is COACHING SCREW UP 101 and it is on Jimbo...and to some extent Trent. roman is complicit just because he should have insisted knowing this also...altho it is a joke to think roman would even consider something like that.

So thl good try, but evidence is against you.

Regarding what you bolded. If you are referring specifically to when it's a blowout, to get Vance/Baldwin the ball, then I agree. It was time to scrimmage and get the passing attack, and Kap some reps throwing the ball at game speed. If you are also including times where the game is in the balance, I disagree in telling Kap to target Vance/Baldwin, although that has happened in games. Given a situation with the game in question, with what I feel are sub-par WRs, the team should get the ball to their proven playmakers. When the game was in the balance and the target went to Vance/Baldwin I can remember more drops and mistakes than I can remember good things happen in the passing game. And I am trying to be as objective as I can.

You stated above that Kap is the one "who ultimately decides who he is going to throw to", yet say it's the coaching staff that tells him what to do. There is truth in both, but where we differ is that you believe this is predominantly an AR passing attack, where I do not.

Let me get this straight so I can better reply later. You stated above that the coaching staff tells the QB where to throw on most passing plays. Are you suggesting that when AS was QB, the coaching staff told him to distribute the ball, but with Kap, they are telling Kap to throw it to Boldin/VD to produce this lopsided distribution in team receptions? Let me know what think regarding this question, then tell me again the evidence is against me.

Actually Thl, you have me confused with NCOmmand. I have yet to figure out, even with you, Adrian, and jonnydel, teaching me as you go, just exactly what we are playing. I think I am more in the PS camp, but in all honesty, I have not taken a stand, because I can see it so many different ways, where guys on both sides are presenting compelling arguments. And I thank you as well as NC, Jonny and Adrian, for your astute observations and teaching. I am just not sure, as I can see it both ways or neither of the above... as in busted plays.

I do definitely come down hard on jimbo for wasting 5 (FIVE) games we won by avg 31 pts , all against weak sister teams, where I, and others, kept waiting for him to showcase vance, Baldwin, lmj, and hunter as receivers, both in backfield and in WR/TE slots,so we could at long last find out if we have 1, 2, with luck 3 or conceivably 4 receivers that are just schidt hot fantastic at catching the football.

We all know that didn't happen and frankly, Thl, I just couldn't believe our coach had such a lack of curiousity for using these 5 opportunities to learn about the receivers on his team. Incredible. Just incredible. And in my mind, very, very foolish. What if 1, 2 or 3 of those guys are as good at receiving as Tramaine was in covering and tackling? Stupid. just stupid, and way , way less than what I expected from a guy I think of as our savior.

As for kap, heck yeah JH could have directed him to throw to Baldwin, vance, LMJ and Hunter in the backfield and also at WR. As you know he did none of these things. What kind of coach is it THl, that doesn't want to find out what guys on the bench can do for him? To me that sounds like a guy who is playing not to lose....exactly the way he coached against the 4 elite teams we lost to. I will end with just saying I am terribly disappointed our coach isn't more interested in seeing if there is untapped receiving talent sitting on the bench or not.

As for kap, sure, he has favorites, no question. However, If JH tells him to throw to these four guys in a laugher game, then kap would have had to do it. He didn't. Jimbo's error.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Actually Thl, you have me confused with NCOmmand. I have yet to figure out, even with you, Adrian, and jonnydel, teaching me as you go, just exactly what we are playing. I think I am more in the PS camp, but in all honesty, I have not taken a stand, because I can see it so many different ways, where guys on both sides are presenting compelling arguments. And I thank you as well as NC, Jonny and Adrian, for your astute observations and teaching. I am just not sure, as I can see it both ways or neither of the above... as in busted plays.

I do definitely come down hard on jimbo for wasting 5 (FIVE) games we won by avg 31 pts , all against weak sister teams, where I, and others, kept waiting for him to showcase vance, Baldwin, lmj, and hunter as receivers, both in backfield and in WR/TE slots,so we could at long last find out if we have 1, 2, with luck 3 or conceivably 4 receivers that are just schidt hot fantastic at catching the football.

We all know that didn't happen and frankly, Thl, I just couldn't believe our coach had such a lack of curiousity for using these 5 opportunities to learn about the receivers on his team. Incredible. Just incredible. And in my mind, very, very foolish. What if 1, 2 or 3 of those guys are as good at receiving as Tramaine was in covering and tackling? Stupid. just stupid, and way , way less than what I expected from a guy I think of as our savior.

As for kap, heck yeah JH could have directed him to throw to Baldwin, vance, LMJ and Hunter in the backfield and also at WR. As you know he did none of these things. What kind of coach is it THl, that doesn't want to find out what guys on the bench can do for him? To me that sounds like a guy who is playing not to lose....exactly the way he coached against the 4 elite teams we lost to. I will end with just saying I am terribly disappointed our coach isn't more interested in seeing if there is untapped receiving talent sitting on the bench or not.

As for kap, sure, he has favorites, no question. However, If JH tells him to throw to these four guys in a laugher game, then kap would have had to do it. He didn't. Jimbo's error.

I get you are upset that Jim didn't use the blowouts as practice time. It still would have just resulted in a handful more passing attempts. I wanted it too, but not a huge deal. And obviously the team won big, so it's hard for me to be too hard on Jim for that.

Gotcha on the lack of a stance you have on the passing offense. The first post I made today was in reply to NinerGM and how he stated the passing offense is so focused on targeting two players, because this is the passing attack Harbaugh envisions. My take that it is not, regarding pass distribution. I posted the receiving totals as a way to speculate on why VD/Boldin ruled the targets (pre-Crabs). You stated that the evidence was against me. What was it with those numbers that made you say that? Or are you saying that the reasons you stated in post is this 'evidence against me'? Just wondering since you called me out on that. I am open to other ways of figuring out how Jim really envisions this passing offense once the main piece of this passing attack is polished and shiny, Kap.

Regarding the bolded. You want Vance/Baldwin to get targets regardless of game situation. This is a difference in coaching philosophy you have with Jim. He wants the ball going to his playmakers (AR plays) when the game is undecided. Especially when his QB is shaky from drive to drive. If you remember the targets Baldwin got this season, they were all first read plays for Kap. He gave Baldwin the jump balls and they all failed - all of them. I would count 4 of his 9 targets this season was that type of pass. Then one he dropped in the end zone. Vance with drops (the one vs CAR hurt). The 49ers didn't pass much during weeks 4-9ish so make the most of the opportunities by scheming your top play makers, not your secondary ones. I personally agree with Jim's philosophy given a run first offense during those weeks.

Also, coaches learn a lot about players in practice, especially bench players. Their curiosity about whether a player has the goods to take targets away from Boldin/VD on AR plays is probably satisfied in practice. Please no more Baldwin talk. I've stated stuff on Baldwin in the thread, "has Baldwin played his last game" including his poor target to completion ratio, in SF and in KC. He can't beat out a one legged Ham. He's young so there is still a chance.

Baldwin will be gone this year. He can't even block well dang.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Boy, GM, do I ever agree with the lack of creativity of this O outside its own rigid structure. Well said.

when he gets creative it is a fake toss pitch to ginn at our own one yard line . then when he needs to go meat and potatoes,(vs panthers) he tells the offense they are not good enough to get a yard on fourth and one from the one

Originally posted by LBSI9ers:
Baldwin will be gone this year. He can't even block well dang.

What? That was the first thing that stood out to me...his blocking on the edges esp. after watching Kyle Williams get destroyed out on the edges on the regular.

dbl

Originally posted by thl408:
NinersGM, I somewhat agree with you that the 49ers won't know what they have if they don't play, and throw to those players (Vance, Baldwin, LMJ). But I posed the hypothesis that it is Kap who is the main factor when it comes to not throwing to different WRs.

I posted this in post #1509 of this thread, but wanted to bring it up to address the issue of unbalanced reception distribution.

…..
Going back to the pass distribution for 2012, I don't think it's correct to look at the final 2012 stats (16 games) to get a sense of how the pass distribution should look in this offense. My claim was that the top heavy pass distribution is due to Kap and how he heavily favors certain targets, not due to how Harbaugh envisions this passing attack to be. Kap ruins the validity of the 2012 end of year stats by becoming the starter in game #10. When Smith was playing the first 8 games of the season (games he played start to finish) the pass distribution was not top heavy like when Kap is the quarterback. Here is a breakdown of how the 2012 pass distribution looked at the end of game #8 (Smith was injured in game #9 so I did not use that STL game):

Crabs: 39
Ham: 28
Davis: 20
Gore: 16
Moss: 13
Williams: 10
Walker:7
Hunter: 7
Miller: 2
Celek: 2
Ginn: 1
That's a nice distribution of completions in an offense. I understand targets might be a better stat to use as opposed to receptions, but perhaps we can dive into that later if needed. Below is the current catch distribution for this season (through 12 games):

Boldin: 61
Davis: 42
Miller: 18
Gore: 15
etc....
Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/168162-greg-roman-really-good/page101/#eqh6aiWM5zw60q5m.99

So I used the stats from the 2012 games 1-8 when AS played from start to finish. 2011's offseason/training camp was cut short due to the lockout and didn't allow coaching staffs to implement a new offense, so I omitted 2011.

thl408, thanks for reiterating this one b/c it's important. It's in line with your original theory that perhaps, Roman pulled back the reigns significantly on CK and made the passing game even easier to execute with the AR "manufacturing" passing attack which is what Gruden/Tirico/Silver/Dilfer all alluded to this past week alone (see, even as fans, we're way ahead of the game!). More importantly your distribution list helps demonstrate that with a much more experienced QB, there IS freedom built in to HaRoMan's system to take advantage of other, less targeted AR's or we ran more PS passing plays which independently, gives the QB more freedom. Granted, Alex had a more conservative "check down mentality" but it's still a fair point.

To be fair, I don't have access to any more of the 2012 games (DVR deletions) so I was wondering if anyone still had access and could review the offense objectively under Alex's first full eight games. I was wondering the following 1) Was it the same predominant AR "manufacturing" passing attack (but Roman called more for others in the game plan) and if so 2) Was it more effective for VD and Crabtree (AR's) and the aforementioned list of others in your distribution b/c of the Moss and Walker-decoy effects or 3) HaRoMan called many more PS passing plays b/c they trusted Alex much more to not only recognize the defensive coverages but that he'd hit the proper matchups and not turn the ball over.

This small amount of research would do wonders for helping us determine not only what the true foundation of our passing game is (predominant AR or PS or an even mix) but what to expect once CK becomes more experienced and a true veteran of reading defenses and this offensive playbook, in particular.

Does anyone have this information and is willing to put in the time to review those eight games?

Originally posted by NCommand:
thl408, thanks for reiterating this one b/c it's important. It's in line with your original theory that perhaps, Roman pulled back the reigns significantly on CK and made the passing game even easier to execute with the AR "manufacturing" passing attack which is what Gruden/Tirico/Silver/Dilfer all alluded to this past week alone (see, even as fans, we're way ahead of the game!). More importantly your distribution list helps demonstrate that with a much more experienced QB, there IS freedom built in to HaRoMan's system to take advantage of other, less targeted AR's or we ran more PS passing plays which independently, gives the QB more freedom. Granted, Alex had a more conservative "check down mentality" but it's still a fair point.

To be fair, I don't have access to any more of the 2012 games (DVR deletions) so I was wondering if anyone still had access and could review the offense objectively under Alex's first full eight games. I was wondering the following 1) Was it the same predominant AR "manufacturing" passing attack (but Roman called more for others in the game plan) and if so 2) Was it more effective for VD and Crabtree (AR's) and the aforementioned list of others in your distribution b/c of the Moss and Walker-decoy effects or 3) HaRoMan called many more PS passing plays b/c they trusted Alex much more to not only recognize the defensive coverages but that he'd hit the proper matchups and not turn the ball over.

This small amount of research would do wonders for helping us determine not only what the true foundation of our passing game is (predominant AR or PS or an even mix) but what to expect once CK becomes more experienced and a true veteran of reading defenses and this offensive playbook, in particular.

Does anyone have this information and is willing to put in the time to review those eight games?

Thanks, NC. The bolded is exactly what I am trying to get at. As a QB gains more experience he will 'see the field' better, thus incorporating his 3rd/4th reads more consistently. That is when we should start to see a better distribution in receptions (more Vance, more Gore). I am assuming AS saw the field better due to his experience, making it possible to use all his available targets to create a better distribution.

This offense does allow the QB to use his secondary options, but it is up to the QB to be confident in going to those secondary options. Well, that is my hypothesis and my hope. I am curious enough to look to the 2012 film for answers, perhaps during the offseason.

Originally posted by thl408:

Originally posted by NCommand:
thl408, thanks for reiterating this one b/c it's important. It's in line with your original theory that perhaps, Roman pulled back the reigns significantly on CK and made the passing game even easier to execute with the AR "manufacturing" passing attack which is what Gruden/Tirico/Silver/Dilfer all alluded to this past week alone (see, even as fans, we're way ahead of the game!). More importantly your distribution list helps demonstrate that with a much more experienced QB, there IS freedom built in to HaRoMan's system to take advantage of other, less targeted AR's or we ran more PS passing plays which independently, gives the QB more freedom. Granted, Alex had a more conservative "check down mentality" but it's still a fair point.

To be fair, I don't have access to any more of the 2012 games (DVR deletions) so I was wondering if anyone still had access and could review the offense objectively under Alex's first full eight games. I was wondering the following 1) Was it the same predominant AR "manufacturing" passing attack (but Roman called more for others in the game plan) and if so 2) Was it more effective for VD and Crabtree (AR's) and the aforementioned list of others in your distribution b/c of the Moss and Walker-decoy effects or 3) HaRoMan called many more PS passing plays b/c they trusted Alex much more to not only recognize the defensive coverages but that he'd hit the proper matchups and not turn the ball over.

This small amount of research would do wonders for helping us determine not only what the true foundation of our passing game is (predominant AR or PS or an even mix) but what to expect once CK becomes more experienced and a true veteran of reading defenses and this offensive playbook, in particular.

Does anyone have this information and is willing to put in the time to review those eight games?

Thanks, NC. The bolded is exactly what I am trying to get at. As a QB gains more experience he will 'see the field' better, thus incorporating his 3rd/4th reads more consistently. That is when we should start to see a better distribution in receptions (more Vance, more Gore). I am assuming AS saw the field better due to his experience, making it possible to use all his available targets to create a better distribution.

This offense does allow the QB to use his secondary options, but it is up to the QB to be confident in going to those secondary options. Well, that is my hypothesis and my hope. I am curious enough to look to the 2012 film for answers, perhaps during the offseason.

That is my hope as well and trust me, I'd love to be in that camp as well esp. for the long haul. Even if the foundation is predominately AR, that can still work as well (as we've seen) as long as HaRoMan is calling in the correct plays to properly attack the defensive alignments (not as critical if executed properly), we maintain top notch talent at the skill positions, we start to incorporate other non-AR's more, uses the full field more (like the Eagles - use the entire 53.3 yards), grows in his own play calling abilities (short passes to get CK involved early and into a rhythm, develops better "flow," improves in the RZ, takes better advantage of defensive weaknesses AND continues to attack them until they adjust, etc.), etc. But I am hoping to see CK "develop" and the onus becomes less on Roman pre-snap and more on CK in-play.

Thl, just for the record, I wanted to see LMJ, Hunter, Baldwin, and vance in the blowout games...I never said anything about playing those guys against elite teams. My feeling was it was shameful not to see what those guys have...or don't. And in blowout games, there is your chance to find out...so my philosophy is the same as yours on that score.

On AR vs PS, I just am not sure, but sure have read everything and seen every gif with interest. I cannot make up my mind based on what I have seen to date, except that kap is a vicious opponent to face when a passing play breaks down and he is on the run.

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Thl, just for the record, I wanted to see LMJ, Hunter, Baldwin, and vance in the blowout games...I never said anything about playing those guys against elite teams. My feeling was it was shameful not to see what those guys have...or don't. And in blowout games, there is your chance to find out...so my philosophy is the same as yours on that score.

On AR vs PS, I just am not sure, but sure have read everything and seen every gif with interest. I cannot make up my mind based on what I have seen to date, except that kap is a vicious opponent to face when a passing play breaks down and he is on the run.

knowing roman he will f**k it up in the red zone which means we get field goals and not touchdowns which means it will be closer than it should and we will not see starters rested nor we will see guys in mop up time. due to our offensive coordinator being a miserable failure, and our defensive coordinators mind boggling decisions to go soft and let teams back in,, our guys have to play the entire game

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
thL, your point is well taken that it is, after all, Kap who ultimately decides who he is going to throw to, and sometimes, covered or not. However....kap is NOT the HC nor is he the OC. He is the QB, and Qb take orders from their immediate superiors. In this particular instance, JH and roman should have literally forced kap to throw to vance, Baldwin, lmj, and hunter. A simple, "KAP, my man, we need to know what our guys on the bench have...or don't have. We are expecting you, with a 25 pt lead in this game to go out there and help us find out. NOW GO DO IT" .

I can guarnandamtee it that conversation never took place, because if so we would know right this very moment if we are loaded with another TE and 3 RBs who are schidt hot receivers, and can actually be plugged in to WR or TE at any time and even better, as bailouts in the backfield. None of that ever happened. So it does in fact run thru kap, but this is COACHING SCREW UP 101 and it is on Jimbo...and to some extent Trent. roman is complicit just because he should have insisted knowing this also...altho it is a joke to think roman would even consider something like that.

So thl good try, but evidence is against you.

You called me out. What is this evidence that is against me? I am unclear what you were referring to.

Originally posted by cciowa:

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Thl, just for the record, I wanted to see LMJ, Hunter, Baldwin, and vance in the blowout games...I never said anything about playing those guys against elite teams. My feeling was it was shameful not to see what those guys have...or don't. And in blowout games, there is your chance to find out...so my philosophy is the same as yours on that score.

On AR vs PS, I just am not sure, but sure have read everything and seen every gif with interest. I cannot make up my mind based on what I have seen to date, except that kap is a vicious opponent to face when a passing play breaks down and he is on the run.

knowing roman he will f**k it up in the red zone which means we get field goals and not touchdowns which means it will be closer than it should and we will not see starters rested nor we will see guys in mop up time. due to our offensive coordinator being a miserable failure, and our defensive coordinators mind boggling decisions to go soft and let teams back in,, our guys have to play the entire game

Originally posted by cciowa:
knowing roman he will f**k it up in the red zone which means we get field goals and not touchdowns which means it will be closer than it should and we will not see starters rested nor we will see guys in mop up time. due to our offensive coordinator being a miserable failure, and our defensive coordinators mind boggling decisions to go soft and let teams back in,, our guys have to play the entire game

Frustrating at times, but "miserable failure?" There's no comparison with him and the group we had for 9 years during reigns of Erickson through Singletary. i do wish we'd see more WCO plays, however.