Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by K1ngCoopa24:
What this guy said. Also, the playing not to lose is eventually going to cost us. Instead of keeping our boots to the throats of opposing teams, we let them score before half time and give them life. I can understand that to a certain extent, but it happens far too often with this team. Harbaugh and roman shut down the offense even if we are only up by 10 points at the start of the 3rd quarter. They roll up into a little ball and are totally content with punting the ball and relying on the defense.

that's both sides. they turn it off and turn it on.
hopefully from here on out it's turn it on and never turn off. with the calls and aggressiveness. there's no need to take it easy on anybody in the nfl they get paid good money to get beat, do them the honor of doing it without ceasing.

i guarantee 2 bombs to crabs this week. last week he had his explosion back and speed as well. and he's so damn hungry.. just watching the game again and he just wants the ball. when he catches it he's just like i want more and more and more and more lol

davis is the only one of the 3 that's nonchalant about the whole thing

One last thot and I will quit. The losses to 4 of the 6 elites still bothers me more than any other thing. I touched on it above, but after thinking last nite, I wonder if there isn't a bit of coaching schizophrenia on HaRo'part when we play ELITEs. During 10 games this season they called ok to good games, had ok to good play calls. But in 4 elite loss games the game plan and play calling went schizophrenic and had no relationship to game plans and play calling in the other 10 games. Why? Why? I still think JH is afraid not to lose in those elite games( esp the Panthers, 10-9 ? are you kidding me?)and the only thing I can take away from those elite losses was this schizophrenic "play not to lose" because these guys are really a good team...a tough team. Play conservative, don't do anything risky, just play conservative football and maybe we get lucky and outplay them.

Looking at jonnydel's and Thls, and adrians breakdowns, it is obvious our coaches know what they are doing. I can't see anything other than a totally different mindset in playing elites. It is almost as if Coach H doesn't trust what they are currently doing. And in those first two losses, they just flat went 180 degrees from the successful game plan against GB. Against the Panthers it was the same. They were afraid to be bold,, to run the same stuff that has been successful all yr....because they might lose. This schizophrenic take on game planning and playcalling has got to stop. N.O. game, what in the world were they doing ? HaRo just didn't believe their game planning and play calling could match N.O. and so we went out and played conservatively, completely getting away from what we do well.

Obviously in the second SEA game, the game plan and play calling reverted back to what we do best...run frank, work crabs, Vernon, boldin. We did not work Baldwin, vance, LMj, or hunter...and we should have . Getting more of our talent utilized is the other bug a boo, but now wth miller out, Dix is in, finally, and maybe, just maybe we see other guys playing that should be out there also. And maybe Coach H has gotten rid of this "playing not to lose". That sure is a crappy game plan to go into a game with, and I swear in our 4 losses, that WAS our game plan and play calling.

Good news is he DID beat SEA, and now that he knows he can, maybe we won't see any more "playing not to lose"

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
One last thot and I will quit. The losses to 4 of the 6 elites still bothers me more than any other thing. I touched on it above, but after thinking last nite, I wonder if there isn't a bit of coaching schizophrenia on HaRo'part when we play ELITEs. During 10 games this season they called ok to good games, had ok to good play calls. But in 4 elite loss games the game plan and play calling went schizophrenic and had no relationship to game plans and play calling in the other 10 games. Why? Why? I still think JH is afraid not to lose in those elite games( esp the Panthers, 10-9 ? are you kidding me?)and the only thing I can take away from those elite losses was this schizophrenic "play not to lose" because these guys are really a good team...a tough team. Play conservative, don't do anything risky, just play conservative football and maybe we get lucky and outplay them.

Looking at jonnydel's and Thls, and adrians breakdowns, it is obvious our coaches know what they are doing. I can't see anything other than a totally different mindset in playing elites. It is almost as if Coach H doesn't trust what they are currently doing. And in those first two losses, they just flat went 180 degrees from the successful game plan against GB. Against the Panthers it was the same. They were afraid to be bold,, to run the same stuff that has been successful all yr....because they might lose. This schizophrenic take on game planning and playcalling has got to stop. N.O. game, what in the world were they doing ? HaRo just didn't believe their game planning and play calling could match N.O. and so we went out and played conservatively, completely getting away from what we do well.

Obviously in the second SEA game, the game plan and play calling reverted back to what we do best...run frank, work crabs, Vernon, boldin. We did not work Baldwin, vance, LMj, or hunter...and we should have . Getting more of our talent utilized is the other bug a boo, but now wth miller out, Dix is in, finally, and maybe, just maybe we see other guys playing that should be out there also. And maybe Coach H has gotten rid of this "playing not to lose". That sure is a crappy game plan to go into a game with, and I swear in our 4 losses, that WAS our game plan and play calling.

Good news is he DID beat SEA, and now that he knows he can, maybe we won't see any more "playing not to lose"

Everything and I mean everything, comes down to your original offensive philosophy (mindset). That is heavily ingrained like DNA. Some coaches in the NFL have and will adapt like Tom McCoughlin during their Superbowl run/win and others like Mike Singletary, Mike Martz and Jimmy Raye, never have and never will.

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
he did so much good today. he's coming around let's hope he keeps a level head and continues this trend.

more vance

and more hunter

let's keep it going all the way to being what we could and should be

How many plays does Vance get a game? 1 maybe. The one play he blew against the panthers and that was it. Totally stupid. We have to develop players. Roman needs to do this.

On ESPN this morning Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden were discussing our offense: "Now without Michael Crabtree for a good part of the season it was manufacturing a way to get Anquan Boldin or Vernon Davis free..."

Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.

Originally posted by okdkid:
Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.

lol

Originally posted by okdkid:
Say what you will but Greg Roman is a phenomenal physical specimen.

And as we know that is the #1 thing you look for in a coach.

Originally posted by NCommand:
On ESPN this morning Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden were discussing our offense: "Now without Michael Crabtree for a good part of the season it was manufacturing a way to get Anquan Boldin or Vernon Davis free..."

When I went back and looked at the film. The reason the passing game sunk in the Colts game was because NO ONE got open on a lot off different passing plays. I'm talking about what you refer to as PS passing plays. The colts were running a lot of man coverage because they were able to pinch the pocket with Mathis and our receivers couldn't run simple routes to get open. When you can't throw the ball, you can't sustain drives, when you can't sustain drives, you can't run the ball.

It's really easy to blame one person when the whole thing goes awry. However, these players have to be professionals and execute their job. Personally, I think it's more on Trent Baalke to blame for our passing game woes. We should've aquired another receiver the moment Crabs got hurt, but we didn't. We knew some top receivers were on the trading block, but we didn't go after them. He drafted A.J. Jenkins with a 1st round pick....... he brought in a bunch of garbage players into camp, then traded Jenkins for another bust....(we would've been better off acquiring a 7th round pick for him). It wasn't like Crabs got hurt during training camp; Baalke knew since May that Crabs was down.

A carpenter is only as good as his tools and Baalke gave Roman some useless tools.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
When I went back and looked at the film. The reason the passing game sunk in the Colts game was because NO ONE got open on a lot off different passing plays. I'm talking about what you refer to as PS passing plays. The colts were running a lot of man coverage because they were able to pinch the pocket with Mathis and our receivers couldn't run simple routes to get open. When you can't throw the ball, you can't sustain drives, when you can't sustain drives, you can't run the ball.

It's really easy to blame one person when the whole thing goes awry. However, these players have to be professionals and execute their job. Personally, I think it's more on Trent Baalke to blame for our passing game woes. We should've aquired another receiver the moment Crabs got hurt, but we didn't. We knew some top receivers were on the trading block, but we didn't go after them. He drafted A.J. Jenkins with a 1st round pick....... he brought in a bunch of garbage players into camp, then traded Jenkins for another bust....(we would've been better off acquiring a 7th round pick for him). It wasn't like Crabs got hurt during training camp; Baalke knew since May that Crabs was down.

A carpenter is only as good as his tools and Baalke gave Roman some useless tools.

What tools did the Patriots give Brady? Minus Gronkowski, they've struggled compared to what people expect from there, however, they found ways to adapt, they found ways to get guys open, now whether or not they actually caught the ball is an entirely different story. But its not like the 49ers didn't have viable targets, when you have guys like VD, Boldin, defense's will key in on those guys and you find a way to get the ball to McDonald, to your RB's out of the backfield...etc. Were the 49ers in a weakened situation? Sure. Was it absolutely unworkable for an experienced, intelligent NFL playcaller? Not at all.

jonnydel, much as I appreciate and have learned from your terrific posts, I think you are making a judgement on Baldwin that is not yet able to be made...ie, he has been targeted only a handful of times, same for vance, hunter, LMJ...and I just flat don't believe anyone can judge these guys until they have had their chances. I am very hopeful for all 4 of the above, all considered by many as bust, when , hell, they haven't had but a handful of chances. Shame on JH for not getting those guys a lot of snaps, particularly in the 5 games we won going away by 31 pts. When it comes to draft time, how can JH and Trent make informed judgements, when they don't really know what they have on the bench....and that to me reeks of terrible coaching. Baldwin caught 20 passes/yr for two yrs in KC. I bet he hasn't been targeted more than 5 or 6 times total. How the heck does trent or JH know what they actually have on the bench if those guys aren't used...tramaine brock is a great example...should have been playing long ago...but doesn't get in until we have an injury. That, to me is bogus.

Boy, GM, do I ever agree with the lack of creativity of this O outside its own rigid structure. Well said.

Originally posted by jonnydel:
When I went back and looked at the film. The reason the passing game sunk in the Colts game was because NO ONE got open on a lot off different passing plays. I'm talking about what you refer to as PS passing plays. The colts were running a lot of man coverage because they were able to pinch the pocket with Mathis and our receivers couldn't run simple routes to get open. When you can't throw the ball, you can't sustain drives, when you can't sustain drives, you can't run the ball.

It's really easy to blame one person when the whole thing goes awry. However, these players have to be professionals and execute their job. Personally, I think it's more on Trent Baalke to blame for our passing game woes. We should've aquired another receiver the moment Crabs got hurt, but we didn't. We knew some top receivers were on the trading block, but we didn't go after them. He drafted A.J. Jenkins with a 1st round pick....... he brought in a bunch of garbage players into camp, then traded Jenkins for another bust....(we would've been better off acquiring a 7th round pick for him). It wasn't like Crabs got hurt during training camp; Baalke knew since May that Crabs was down.

A carpenter is only as good as his tools and Baalke gave Roman some useless tools.

I was wondering if you noticed, when reviewing the film, how often VD and Boldin were schemed open in the HOU, ARI, TEN games (weeks 5-7). That was something I saw when watching the games again. It was easy to scheme them open because opposing defenses were playing predominantly man coverage. Lots of decoy (clearing) routes used to get VD and Boldin space to work their routes. That was when we saw Vance and Miller lined up wide, with the main objective to run a go route designed to clear the area for Boldin and VD to work.

It's fair to say that Baalke didn't get any help once Crabs was injured since all he did was trade AJJ for Baldwin, but we can't say he didn't try to get something bigger since we don't know. If he was a good GM, which I believe he is, he would have explored all available options on the trading block, so I am going to assume that he did explore trade options. If other GMs are worth their weight, they would price gouge the f--k out of Baalke, someone who just lost his #1 WR and has plenty of draft picks in 2014. It wouldn't be absurd to speculate that Baalke kicked the tires on many deals, only to not get a reasonable trade offer due to not being in a position of leverage. Before the season began, what GM would trade away a legit WR asset for future considerations (draft picks)? That would send a horrible message to the team and fan base. "We haven't started the season, but we are looking forward to the next draft by trading our proven talent for futures".

I believe what happened is what you described above, and what happened in the comment NC quoted (made by Gruden). The IND game showed that the WR corp in week 3 had no consistent ability to create separation versus man coverage. So with a QB that lacked polish, a WR corp that lacked ability, and a 1-2 record, it was time to put the onus on the coaching staff to get guys open, make it less difficult for Kap, and just let him use his arm talent and sling the ball to where the coaches want him to.

Geesh, I step away for a few hours and BAM, we're the #5 seed and this thread took off again. And great comments by all no matter what side of the fence you are on. Wow, I don't even know where to start on this one...you guys covered so much re: how I feel.

NinersGM, I somewhat agree with you that the 49ers won't know what they have if they don't play, and throw to those players (Vance, Baldwin, LMJ). But I posed the hypothesis that it is Kap who is the main factor when it comes to not throwing to different WRs.

I posted this in post #1509 of this thread, but wanted to bring it up to address the issue of unbalanced reception distribution.

…..
Going back to the pass distribution for 2012, I don't think it's correct to look at the final 2012 stats (16 games) to get a sense of how the pass distribution should look in this offense. My claim was that the top heavy pass distribution is due to Kap and how he heavily favors certain targets, not due to how Harbaugh envisions this passing attack to be. Kap ruins the validity of the 2012 end of year stats by becoming the starter in game #10. When Smith was playing the first 8 games of the season (games he played start to finish) the pass distribution was not top heavy like when Kap is the quarterback. Here is a breakdown of how the 2012 pass distribution looked at the end of game #8 (Smith was injured in game #9 so I did not use that STL game):

Crabs: 39
Ham: 28
Davis: 20
Gore: 16
Moss: 13
Williams: 10
Walker:7
Hunter: 7
Miller: 2
Celek: 2
Ginn: 1
That's a nice distribution of completions in an offense. I understand targets might be a better stat to use as opposed to receptions, but perhaps we can dive into that later if needed. Below is the current catch distribution for this season (through 12 games):

Boldin: 61
Davis: 42
Miller: 18
Gore: 15
etc....
Read more at http://www.49erswebzone.com/forum/niners/168162-greg-roman-really-good/page101/#eqh6aiWM5zw60q5m.99
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So I used the stats from the 2012 games 1-8 when AS played from start to finish. 2011's offseason/training camp was cut short due to the lockout and didn't allow coaching staffs to implement a new offense, so I omitted 2011.

Originally posted by NinerGM:
Or, it's easy to counter an offense when you know where the ball is going. As well as you can execute, if I get a "jump" on the route because I know, as you've quoted only Anquan and Vernon are getting the ball, I ignore - much like the Colts did, the other "receivers" and shut those two down. If Roman was a OC worth his salt, he'd design ways to get his ridiculously talented stable of running backs involved in the passing offense. It's not like these guys can't catch passes because when I run college film on them, they were quite adept at catching passes. What this offense lacks is creativity outside it's own rigid structure. As I've pointed out in other posts, this will ultimately doom this team as the Davis, Q and Crabtree become more expensive to sign. The rigidity of only forcing the majority of passes to designated receivers will inevitably mean someone else isn't being developed. How can we make the claim that we have garbage receivers when they didn't get opportunities? We have a two TEs on this team that were making huge passing plays in practice, even lauded by fellow players. Is Carrier running passing routes? How many throws this year have we seen go to McDonald who is a huge mistmatch? When have we said "offensively, we're going to feature LMJ as a Sproles-type player."

jonnydel, I think your analysis is awesome the way you break down film, etc. However I strongly disagree with you that this team doesn't have the tools on it's current roster to be a great offense despite the loss of Crabtree. The drop off shouldn't make you the worst passing offense in the league. If your offense is so dependent on one player in today's NFL, rife with injuries and unknowns ......



You're running the wrong offense in today's NFL.