Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by dtg_9er:
This seems like a very likely description of what's going on. It is also likely that CK's regression in throwing short passes is a result of inconsistent play calling...not calling short passes often enough to keep his game sharp.

I truly believe they need to do what the team did with Montana--drill the basics every off season so that he didn't have to think about the touch passes or drops or many other aspects of the offense. That's what CK needs because he has all the rest. But it's hard to tell a purebred to practice being a trotter! LOL...I can see the coaches being somewhat awkward about just what he should practice...Walsh would not be at all confused. I can't believe Harbaugh is either...perplexing!

As far as using all there weapons...just don't understand it unless practice hasn't gone well with various guys--James, Patton, McDonald...

Exactly, even if that means making your AR "the" RB. We only had one in the first half of the Bucs game (middle of the field - 5 yard gain on 1st down, which is great!). And again, with all the added attention to Crabtree, VD and Boldin, these flare out and delayed check outs are WIDE open. If we can keep hitting these, CK will not only get into a nice rhythm but make the defense adjust of which THEN we can go back to the intermediate passing game. If this coaching staff can teach CK to hit his AR under 3 seconds and if it's NOT there, immediately look to the check downs, we'd be rolling b/c they are all open all the time...Gore, Hunter, Miller and even James last game. Use 'em and watch what happens...you may see 3 or 4 TD's come out of it like in KC last week.

Originally posted by 808niner4lyphe:
You know what? I gotta be honest, I used to hate Roman and his play callings until I started reading the coaches film breakdown thread by johnnydel, that shined the light on me that Roman is not that bad as a OC than most of us in here thinks. I mean, he's not the greatest either but he is way better than most of us give him credit for. Yes, some of his play calls are very questionable but it all comes down to the players execution of the play too. I remember the players praised him and raving about him being very creative and a genius of a OC. Im not saying that I totally love him as an OC, but I think he's better than some of the OC candidates that's being mentioned around here. One of the things I hate tho, is the conservative play calls when were leading, even if its not by much. If the lead is more than 28 points then I don't mind the conservative play call to kill time off of the clock. Just my opinion.

his issue is play calling, timing of play calling, keeping the offense in a consistent rhythm, and red zone play calling.

it's not the plays, it's when he calls the plays and when he doesn't and what type of plan he puts together and how they effect the team.

he put together 4 so so plans and ended up with 4 l's

cannot wing it in the nfl the talent level isn't that far apart ...we're more talented but the teams we face aren't slouches.

Originally posted by NCommand:
Exactly, even if that means making your AR "the" RB. We only had one in the first half of the Bucs game (middle of the field - 5 yard gain on 1st down, which is great!). And again, with all the added attention to Crabtree, VD and Boldin, these flare out and delayed check outs are WIDE open. If we can keep hitting these, CK will not only get into a nice rhythm but make the defense adjust of which THEN we can go back to the intermediate passing game. If this coaching staff can teach CK to hit his AR under 3 seconds and if it's NOT there, immediately look to the check downs, we'd be rolling b/c they are all open all the time...Gore, Hunter, Miller and even James last game. Use 'em and watch what happens...you may see 3 or 4 TD's come out of it like in KC last week.

part of that is drop.
they never call 3 steps anymore like they did last year. like the play that sealed the patriot game was a quick drop and quick recognition pass..

if colin is under center its long hand off fake pitch or 5-7 step drop always

and then in shotgun or pistol those type of plays don't get called.

like i said, he can do whatever you tell him to, just work it into the plan or literally just tell him what he should do on each play and he'll do it.

it's like they have a cyborg back there.

Adrian, you basically just reinforced my fears...ie, does roman, or really HaRo have the "IT" to push us over the goal line. Horrid game planning, more horrible play calling against the elite teams (and no I didn't forget we crunched a very good GB team in game 1)....can HaRo overcome the "fear" of playing an elite team? Now, we got a partial answer against SEA at home. My question is that for a guy I pegged as the savior of this franchise, is Harbaugh able to put a string of well planned , well called games together against the very types of teams we have lost to this yr? I still believe in harbaugh, but I am suspicious that when the rubber hits the road, he goes into some kind of shell...the kind we call "playing not to lose".

Kap is another issue. I had not been convinced that he was the problem or was it the playcalls or game planning. In fact it was a combination. Kap's shortcomings had been staring down receivers, running out of time on 24 second clock, not seeing open receivers, completely losing his ability to hit anyone on a short hitter over the middle or slant "short 4-6 yrd" pass. After reviewing jonnydel's incredible "learning tapes", a lot of what kap has done I never noticed. Now, whether we have an AR or PS playcalled, one of out best outcomes comes from busted plays...and there kap is a wizard, whether in a Houdini escape or those two recent sideline passes of 15 and 23 yds, where both receivers were standing just inside the OOB line...that is where I see greatness.

From the above, the coaching, playcalling is by far and away the most troublesome. I didn't mention kap's great points as most know them. In slow mo, with arrow instruction, it is apparent that kap is playing very well, except for the lapses noted above. Ergo, the playcalling, the balling up into a protective shell on O playcalls...those are the things that will bring us down unless HaRo can overcome what makes one wonder "are they afraid of being bold, and doing the things necessary to go out and take away a game from an elite competitor?". At present, just guessing, I would say that Coach H is on the precipice of overcoming the need to "play not to lose"...thus causing a loss.

Also, the "brain fades" in the games with ELITE teams...I have no idea what that means unless it again is, "playing not to lose". Can HaRo overcome that insidious, treacherous thot process? I don't know because HaRo has beaten elites, and then next week fallen off a cliff. I wonder at times if kap ever worries "if Coach will have his schidt together today or not?" Probably not, as kap has more than enough to worry about anyway.

What I do see is a great team, with superior talent, poised to win. Question is will Coach H, or HaRo, take the leap?

Originally posted by jonesadrian:
part of that is drop.
they never call 3 steps anymore like they did last year. like the play that sealed the patriot game was a quick drop and quick recognition pass..

if colin is under center its long hand off fake pitch or 5-7 step drop always

and then in shotgun or pistol those type of plays don't get called.

like i said, he can do whatever you tell him to, just work it into the plan or literally just tell him what he should do on each play and he'll do it.

it's like they have a cyborg back there.

It really is! CK is a company man and he'll do whatever the coaches want and "execute" to the best of his abilities. I feel like he is lacking some fundamental coaching here and at times, we aren't calling plays to help him out much. I wonder if CK, Miller, Boldin, Crabtree, etc. hadn't of made all those amazing individual-effort ad lib plays, if we'd be talking about a loss this week vs. "a great game plan" by Roman. It's good to look at both angles and point out both the positives and negatives. Help CK out!!!

There's no reason to fear, we're not that far away from being where we should be.
It's not gloom and doom we were just (rightfully so) super critical of roman for all the reasons we kept saying.
planning, calling, adjustments, utilization.

And it's all play calling and planning we have the most diverse playbook in the nfl so it's not the plays.. it's getting them right consistently. and not depending on 1 play being the difference in a game (calling the pass to macdonald only once) (the flare out pass to gore) we shouldn't be able to pinpoint those things. but we can because they only happened once.

he has improved... against the seahawks everyone in here has said you beat the seahawks by power running. that's been a constant in here. week 2 we went away from it, everyone here was angry because of it while seattle rushed 40 times.

last game.. what was the play that sealed it? a power run.. like we've been calling for against them. what's the plan going forward? better be a power run...
he called it late and stuck with it which we wanted him to do and it worked.

against the bucs.. they took a shot down the field and it just missed but it was open. in weeks past, if that happened we'd just be wondering about the what if's of that play because we would never try it again.. instead he went right back to it and connected.. that's improvement.. he got crab open deep and didn't connect, monday crab will catch 2 bombs and 10 passes overall you can guarantee that.. that's improvement..

their mantra is you're either getting better or getting worse you're not staying the same.

for 4 games roman was getting worse the rest he's been getting better.

and as long as he continues to get better we've got the talent to beat anyone. it's not even a leap...
1st season we didn't have weapons to win it all.
last season the defense just came out and got beat every 1st half then shut down teams in the 2nd and the special teams coverage was horrible but if you're giving up 24 points in a half. and 21 or 28 in a half.. its tough sledding.
if we had this defensive effort with last year offense we're the champs..

which is why i said this season we put it together.

Originally posted by NCommand:
It really is! CK is a company man and he'll do whatever the coaches want and "execute" to the best of his abilities. I feel like he is lacking some fundamental coaching here and at times, we aren't calling plays to help him out much. I wonder if CK, Miller, Boldin, Crabtree, etc. hadn't of made all those amazing individual-effort ad lib plays, if we'd be talking about a loss this week vs. "a great game plan" by Roman. It's good to look at both angles and point out both the positives and negatives. Help CK out!!!

we could, and that's an issue too, the great talent hides things at times.

it comes back to utilization. it took us only dressing 4wr to get hunter and james more involved.. that shouldn't be the case..
he called some good plays the problem was him and vic both shut down the team at half time. came out 3rd quarter and was just going through the motions and let the bucs back in. and then went back to full throttle and put the game away

we can't do that.

we can't keep letting teams score at the end of halves just because we're up..

we need those things corrected

Agreed, Adrian, but like I said, HaRo has to get over the playing not to lose syndrome. It has been in every loss this yr...and all to ELITE teams. That is what makes me uneasy. Just talking about it doesn't do it. And this is primarily on Coach Harbaugh, moreso than anyone else. If we get up by 20, and Vic goes into a prevent D, well, that is JH's job to call. Same on O, we get up by 20, we just run 3 and outs. That is Jim Harbaugh. Somehow, he has to remove the switch on "play not to lose", and he'll be fine.

Easier said than done, however. Not one team in playoffs will be able to win by playing "Not to lose". I sure hope that we don't play that way, because if so, I could see us running the table.

they've been trolling us.
everything we wanted will happen
playoff time there will be nothing left on the table on either side of the ball.

this is the only team in the nfl built to beat everybody and win everywhere.

there is now no weakness to attack on this team

the only weakness is ourselves

that's just being truthful not even a homer.

defense...what offense scares you? we've faced them all..

offensively what defense is equipped to stop power run and pass?

nobody..

we just have to do what we do and as dennis green said "not let them off the hook"

Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Adrian, you basically just reinforced my fears...ie, does roman, or really HaRo have the "IT" to push us over the goal line. Horrid game planning, more horrible play calling against the elite teams (and no I didn't forget we crunched a very good GB team in game 1)....can HaRo overcome the "fear" of playing an elite team? Now, we got a partial answer against SEA at home. My question is that for a guy I pegged as the savior of this franchise, is Harbaugh able to put a string of well planned , well called games together against the very types of teams we have lost to this yr? I still believe in harbaugh, but I am suspicious that when the rubber hits the road, he goes into some kind of shell...the kind we call "playing not to lose".

Kap is another issue. I had not been convinced that he was the problem or was it the playcalls or game planning. In fact it was a combination. Kap's shortcomings had been staring down receivers, running out of time on 24 second clock, not seeing open receivers, completely losing his ability to hit anyone on a short hitter over the middle or slant "short 4-6 yrd" pass. After reviewing jonnydel's incredible "learning tapes", a lot of what kap has done I never noticed. Now, whether we have an AR or PS playcalled, one of out best outcomes comes from busted plays...and there kap is a wizard, whether in a Houdini escape or those two recent sideline passes of 15 and 23 yds, where both receivers were standing just inside the OOB line...that is where I see greatness.

From the above, the coaching, playcalling is by far and away the most troublesome. I didn't mention kap's great points as most know them. In slow mo, with arrow instruction, it is apparent that kap is playing very well, except for the lapses noted above. Ergo, the playcalling, the balling up into a protective shell on O playcalls...those are the things that will bring us down unless HaRo can overcome what makes one wonder "are they afraid of being bold, and doing the things necessary to go out and take away a game from an elite competitor?". At present, just guessing, I would say that Coach H is on the precipice of overcoming the need to "play not to lose"...thus causing a loss.

Also, the "brain fades" in the games with ELITE teams...I have no idea what that means unless it again is, "playing not to lose". Can HaRo overcome that insidious, treacherous thot process? I don't know because HaRo has beaten elites, and then next week fallen off a cliff. I wonder at times if kap ever worries "if Coach will have his schidt together today or not?" Probably not, as kap has more than enough to worry about anyway.

What I do see is a great team, with superior talent, poised to win. Question is will Coach H, or HaRo, take the leap?

pas, you bring up a fantastic point in terms of "mindset." My biggest issue to date I have with this coaching staff is the philosophies they subscribe too. On ST, it's all about the fair catch. On defense, if we're up, it's all about the prevent-a-win defense. 3rd and 5? CB's are playing off 15 yards...keep everything in front of you. On offense, it's all about TOP, no TO's and a rudimentary college-like AR (safe) passing game to support the clock-eating running game. 3rd and 15? Get ready for the draw up the middle. Clearly there is a conservative coaching mindset...a "philosophy," if you will that all subscribe too. And you know what? It's going to work a good portion of the time for a variety of reasons...BUT, when you get into the playoffs and you play teams with quality DC's with quality personnel, a conservative mindset can lose you a critical game too. One thing we always see is that when we play quality playoff teams, we see the long grocery list of magnified issues come to the surface (I actually created a thread on these recently just to help gauge if we are improving or getting worse from game to game - b/c you never stay the same).

The fact that Roman holds plays in his back pocket, to me, speaks volumes about this offensive philosophy as well. Rather then showing all of our cards all year long (i.e. perfecting them) and forcing DC's to game plan for everything, Roman is hoping to lull a DC to sleep and then smoke-and-mirror them with a back-pocket play, catch them off guard and THAT PLAY being the difference in a game. Interesting...thought on this mentality?

It's going to be interesting to see how HaRoMan adjust to the huge loss of Bruce Miller and if we'll continue to take baby steps forward with the additions of Crabtree and Manningham back esp. with a banged up Gore now. Personnel issues sometimes force a coaches hand to rethink their own conservative coaching philosophy. And sometimes that ends up being a blessing in disguise.

PS: Your bolded is a HUGE concern of mine. Without a DOUBT, the best plays we've had over the past several games since Crabtree has been back have been on these broken AR or PS plays...the ad lib plays. On one hand, this is great b/c we were horrendous in this category earlier in the year when the two main AR's were bottled up in VD and Boldin but on the other hand, we shouldn't be having to rely so much on all these incredible individual efforts either...they may come back and bite us in the playoffs.

NC, like I posted tongue in cheek way back, "Maybe we should just run a hurry up O, with Crabs and Boldin just running 8 yd crosses every play, and Vernon doing the JET STREAK every play(he would need a breather now and then), and then let the cards fall where they may. Kap gets blitzed, or they lay off, no matter, when a play breaks down, kap just makes his own. (This implies that #81, #85, #15, and Baldwin/vance/hunter/whoever all are looking at the Qb from the moment they leave the LOS). If we just ran that play repeatedly, it would be fascinating to see if firehouse football worked out as well as all these fancy, integral 9 man plays. Of course, our RB would be used half the time.

Watching Peyton, brady and Brees, I know our guy is way better runner than any of those 3. Would firehouse football aka "jailbreak football", with kap making it up as he goes, be as good as the complex schemes we run at present? I suspect not, but it sure makes one wonder. With receivers making it up as they go and kap rolling out, I bet we would win one helluva lot of games including Frank, naturally.

NC it is this thought that goes thru my mind when frank is turned loose on a box 10 and gets a yard. Or kap throws 3 15 yarders up in SEA in the mud, rain and wind. (all incomplete). Then I see Jonnydel's breakdowns and I come back to reality. But point of fact, our one best situation is a broken play and kap and receivers working to get open...or kap torching somebody for 18 yd runs. My guess is in playoffs against all ELITE teams, kap will be in busted plays a lot. And that is where he really shines. Advantage...49ers.

Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?

Originally posted by NCommand:
Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?

that time was from april on.

they don't do it just cause they don't there's no other reason why

Originally posted by NCommand:
Here is one for you...

...Manningham, however, hasn't been part of the conversation in an offense that's employed three-wideout formations on 22 percent of their offensive plays (196 of 902), according to Pro Football Focus.

Last year, Kaepernick, as a starter, had a 102.8 rating when targeting Manningham (13 of 17 for 151 yards). This season, Kaepernick has a 13.9 rating when targeting Manningham (9 of 23, 85 yards, 2 INTs), suggesting the pending free agent may not flash his pre-injury form until 2014.
http://blog.sfgate.com/49ers/2013/12/20/wheres-mario-wr-has-disappeared-since-crabtrees-return/

He is still listed as having knee issues...I wonder if he is still hobbled or just being underutilized as the #5 (behind: Boldin, VD, Miller, Crabtree) in targets. Either way, with the injury to Miller, it's time to go more PS-style and give CK some more 3+ WR sets!!! Agree?

Yes, they need to get everyone up to speed for the playoffs! You don't save something for the playoffs or it will be rusty and very inconsistent. If they can go into the playoffs with a healthy and tuned up Crabtree and Manningham, along with VD and Boldin, the pass game could be crazy good!

Originally posted by jonesadrian:

no.
not even close.
cause the losses weren't because of execution it was because the entire plan was stupid.

1wr sets against 9 man fronts makes sense on what planet?

passing when a team gives up 5 yards per carry makes sense on what planet?

so trying to make it that, isn't going to work. that's not it.

What this guy said. Also, the playing not to lose is eventually going to cost us. Instead of keeping our boots to the throats of opposing teams, we let them score before half time and give them life. I can understand that to a certain extent, but it happens far too often with this team. Harbaugh and roman shut down the offense even if we are only up by 10 points at the start of the 3rd quarter. They roll up into a little ball and are totally content with punting the ball and relying on the defense.