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Greg Roman, is he really good?

Originally posted by iLL49er:
NC...Colin in on game 24, it takes 30 they say b4 it all clicks for a QB..and the signs of it clicking are there in the last 3 weeks..he's progressed significantly. i see him moving the defense w/ his eyes and making what trent dildo would call "graduate level" plays

do you disagree?

iLL, if you've followed this thread, we're merely pointing out the patterns we've seen in our passing game. But on the same token, we recognize MANY of CK's own flaws as well and as a result, we've all struggled to ID whether HaRoMan have "scaled back the offense" b/c of CK himself and/or b/c of the personnel losses (and lack of trust in anyone else or even CK himself) or is it another reason? At this junction, our theory isn't so much with CK and his development level as we speak as it is with the philosophy/type of passing game we employ here. We feel CK is merely an extention of the passing game...he is simply executing the plays called in by HaRoMan (like college). He is affored the chance to choose between 1 or 2 of their plays with perhaps, the chance to audible out but given he usually only has a few seconds left on the play clock, we're guestimating he's staying with the primary play call the majority of the time.

Fans that are assuming this is a true WCO or modern day version if it or even a pro-style Spread offense, simply are seeing what CK should be doing...going through his "progressions." But this is where I fundamentally disagree. I'm saying there ARE no true progressions based on the play design itself (unless it's a PS Spread call where we usually run out 4 WR's). That doesn't mean that if his AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger) he can't ad lib and make a play with guys he has chemistry with such as Boldin, Crabtree and VD (3 of the 4 most recent TD's have come off CK not pulling the trigger on the AR initially and then ad libbing successfully with his receiver).

If we were running a more pure or modern version of a WCO or even a pro-style Spread, I'd agree with Belichick and say he'd need his 10,000 passes (ala Alex Smith). BUT, the bigger question is, do we run a passing game that would even require that (right now)? IMHO, CK simply has to execute the play call right now...if covered or he doesn't pull the trigger, he's off and running and either buying time to pass or picking up first downs solo. Simple.

There is a big reason why the media has been saying he's a "remedial QB if he doesn't hit his first read" and "he's a one-read QB." Then Harbaugh and Roman come out and say he's doing exactly what they ask of him. Those two are control freaks and THEY want to have total control of their QB and their passing game. I doubt that will ever change.

Now, to me, the pattern is very clear.

So overall, yes I agree...typically in a WCO it takes over 3+ years to master. Since we have no idea how complex Roman's offense is, it may take even longer. We may only be seeing the foundation: designed (team) passing game and perhaps, the next phase is giving more freedom to CK, installing more PS plays where HE chooses the best receiver through real/actual progressions, etc. We'll see...but before you dismiss a theory, I ask that you take those simple steps yourself and come to your own conclusion with an open mind...I think you'll see it. It really stands out even if you only watch a few passing plays.

PS: The moving the defense with his eyes is still an AR concept. With the AR called in, CK knows who the receiver is so it's not hard to "look off" a S to aid the AR in that matchup. CK has always been pretty good at that and yes, I agree, that is veteran-like skill; no question!
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2013 at 9:45 AM ]
[b]NC as for Dixon not knowing his plays, kap can always say, "Dix, up the 2 hole, and take the MLB to the right" or something like that prior to each play. It is just one guy and he pretty much is going to be going thru the 1 or 3 holes or 2 or 4 holes...and of course, at times right up the gut, zero hole. I don't think it will be that hard for kap to tell him who to take....I hope

One thing I do expect in ATL game is ...to be completely surprised by what roman does. Whatever it is, I bet it won't be the sensible choices made here. It will be roman's way and just the thought of that just makes me sick.
I wouldnt be surprised if he gets interviewed for the Texas job.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
[b]NC as for Dixon not knowing his plays, kap can always say, "Dix, up the 2 hole, and take the MLB to the right" or something like that prior to each play. It is just one guy and he pretty much is going to be going thru the 1 or 3 holes or 2 or 4 holes...and of course, at times right up the gut, zero hole. I don't think it will be that hard for kap to tell him who to take....I hope

One thing I do expect in ATL game is ...to be completely surprised by what roman does. Whatever it is, I bet it won't be the sensible choices made here. It will be roman's way and just the thought of that just makes me sick.

I saw this last game...CK, when he has an additional second or two, instructing guys to move to the correct positions. He will have to do the same for Dixon, no doubt. That said, being in the right spot is only step 1. He'll also have to know his assignment (pass protection, flaring out in a route or which holes/gap to hit for Gore)...then he has to block effectively which I have huge concerns about. He play's high naturally. Miller could get low, take out his guy but he also had that special knack where he could wall off the initial guy while then picking up the next two with Gore on his hip. He has tremendous technique. Dixon, even in a stalemate, could blow up the running play esp. against all the 8, 9 and even 10-man boxes. I do feel better with him out in space on the edges in the passing game and in AR2 plays.
Agree, Va, only a fool would not agree to be interviewed post season. It could only help him in contract talks with 9ers. But making that jump? Possible I guess, but sure seems unlikely. Still and all, the dumptruck with the money in it, sitting outside....well, let's assume he wants to beat his bro in # of SBs he wins. Coaching at UT doesn't help him get that...even with one helluva lot of money.
I hope Harbaugh doesn't leave. He's a true Niner! Baalke just needs to step in and get a more diverse and professional OC and tell Harbaugh to let him coach solo ala Fangio. Period. Harbaugh, you focus on coaching and developing your QB!
Originally posted by NCommand:
iLL, if you've followed this thread, we're merely pointing out the patterns we've seen in our passing game. But on the same token, we recognize MANY of CK's own flaws as well and as a result, we've all struggled to ID whether HaRoMan have "scaled back the offense" b/c of CK himself and/or b/c of the personnel losses (and lack of trust in anyone else or even CK himself) or is it another reason? At this junction, our theory isn't so much with CK and his development level as we speak as it is with the philosophy/type of passing game we employ here. We feel CK is merely an extention of the passing game...he is simply executing the plays called in by HaRoMan (like college). He is affored the chance to choose between 1 or 2 of their plays with perhaps, the chance to audible out but given he usually only has a few seconds left on the play clock, we're guestimating he's staying with the primary play call the majority of the time.

Fans that are assuming this is a true WCO or modern day version if it or even a pro-style Spread offense, simply are seeing what CK should be doing...going through his "progressions." But this is where I fundamentally disagree. I'm saying there ARE no true progressions based on the play design itself (unless it's a PS Spread call where we usually run out 4 WR's). That doesn't mean that if his AR is covered (or he doesn't pull the trigger) he can't ad lib and make a play with guys he has chemistry with such as Boldin, Crabtree and VD (3 of the 4 most recent TD's have come off CK not pulling the trigger on the AR initially and then ad libbing successfully with his receiver).

If we were running a more pure or modern version of a WCO or even a pro-style Spread, I'd agree with Belichick and say he'd need his 10,000 passes (ala Alex Smith). BUT, the bigger question is, do we run a passing game that would even require that (right now)? IMHO, CK simply has to execute the play call right now...if covered or he doesn't pull the trigger, he's off and running and either buying time to pass or picking up first downs solo. Simple.

There is a big reason why the media has been saying he's a "remedial QB if he doesn't hit his first read" and "he's a one-read QB." Then Harbaugh and Roman come out and say he's doing exactly what they ask of him. Those two are control freaks and THEY want to have total control of their QB and their passing game. I doubt that will ever change.

Now, to me, the pattern is very clear.

So overall, yes I agree...typically in a WCO it takes over 3+ years to master. Since we have no idea how complex Roman's offense is, it may take even longer. We may only be seeing the foundation: designed (team) passing game and perhaps, the next phase is giving more freedom to CK, installing more PS plays where HE chooses the best receiver through real/actual progressions, etc. We'll see...but before you dismiss a theory, I ask that you take those simple steps yourself and come to your own conclusion with an open mind...I think you'll see it. It really stands out even if you only watch a few passing plays.

PS: The moving the defense with his eyes is still an AR concept. With the AR called in, CK knows who the receiver is so it's not hard to "look off" a S to aid the AR in that matchup. CK has always been pretty good at that and yes, I agree, that is veteran-like skill; no question!

by this measure, if you study russell wilson he's also running an AR offense...

really, almost every qb in the league outside of brees/brady/manning and MAYBE arod/flacco are running an AR offense
Originally posted by iLL49er:
by this measure, if you study russell wilson he's also running an AR offense...

really, almost every qb in the league outside of brees/brady/manning and MAYBE arod/flacco are running an AR offense

True! We were just talking about this the other day...how similar the offenses (teams) are. Don't get me wrong, I don't watch film of Wilson but you are right on the surface in that it appears, he hits his primary read or he is off and running as well on the majority of the plays. I think the difference is their OC is much better than ours at creating mismatches (design) and playing to his personnel strengths. Also, Wilson and his receivers practice these ad lib plays (esp. those long bombs) ALL THE TIME. I don't get the impression we focus much on this. In fact, I get the impression we focus more on the intricacies of the running game than the passing game. CK said himself after the Redskins game on the difference was that they focused on the passing game more that week. Interesting.

As to your second point, that I don't know...if it's ANY version of the WCO or Spread, no, fundamentally, they are about as opposite as it gets. But to the others? I'm just not that familiar with other offense but I can say our offense is by far, the most unknown and unique offense in the NFL.
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2013 at 10:22 AM ]
Harbaugh on "play clock issue:"

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Morning-Tailgate-Jim-Harbaugh-Quiets-Play-Clock-Concerns/786e1113-b60f-4c38-aa53-d8e07101f789

No surprise to us...it's a strategy by design to burn the clock as much as possible. Slow the game down.

Some had guestimated that we do this to get the defense to "show their hand" but I'm not sure of that now. Maybe?
Originally posted by NCommand:
Originally posted by iLL49er:
by this measure, if you study russell wilson he's also running an AR offense...

really, almost every qb in the league outside of brees/brady/manning and MAYBE arod/flacco are running an AR offense

True! We were just talking about this the other day...how similar the offenses (teams) are. Don't get me wrong, I don't watch film of Wilson but you are right on the surface in that it appears, he hits his primary read or he is off and running as well on the majority of the plays. I think the difference is their OC is much better than ours at creating mismatches (design) and playing to his personnel strengths. Also, Wilson and his receivers practice these ad lib plays (esp. those long bombs) ALL THE TIME. I don't get the impression we focus much on this. In fact, I get the impression we focus more on the intricacies of the running game than the passing game. CK said himself after the Redskins game on the difference was that they focused on the passing game more that week. Interesting.

As to your second point, that I don't know...if it's ANY version of the WCO or Spread, no, fundamentally, they are about as opposite as it gets. But to the others? I'm just not that familiar with other offense but I can say our offense is by far, the most unknown and unique offense in the NFL.

you have at most 3 seconds before the rush hits you in the nfl...so most plays you don't have time to sit back and scan for 5-7secs and pick a wr...most plays a qb goes through 1-2 reads and that's about all they have time for.
Originally posted by NCommand:
Harbaugh on "play clock issue:"

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Morning-Tailgate-Jim-Harbaugh-Quiets-Play-Clock-Concerns/786e1113-b60f-4c38-aa53-d8e07101f789

No surprise to us...it's a strategy by design to burn the clock as much as possible. Slow the game down.

Some had guestimated that we do this to get the defense to "show their hand" but I'm not sure of that now. Maybe?

its stupid and needs to be fixed..harbaugh's answer is arrogant and stupid...but i think he's just waxing poetic after a victory
Still, NC, when you see one of our WRs or TEs or RBs out on a pattern and not even looking back, it sure as heck shows our OC is one helluva lot less talented than those of SEA, N.O., PATS, Philly, Peyton(not Fox), and Panthers. All the OCs of those teams have any receiver blocking or not, looking at the qb, or the ball. Somehow, roman doesn't do that. It's fine to have an AR 1 or 2, but still, if a guy is a receiver, you teach them to look back for the ball after a block, just in case your QB is in trouble. We have seen routes run where guys were not AR1 and they really never got their heads in the play.

When the Qb is taking 7-9 steps drops( and kap almost always does... a bad habit he needs to break) and our OL blocks for the first 3 of those, he is by necessity going to need help, in that pass pro has broken down. Just some simple stuff like that....SEA is famous for it, Saints and Pats the same. Here it seems to happen on occasion, and obviously is not taught. It is like roman has a one track mind, and everything in his play is always going to go off like he expected. Funny how a guy could be a NFL OC and not teach that...or rather, be oblivious to things not working out exactly as scripted.

In the military they have a saying that "Every perfectly laid battle plan goes perfectly...right up until the first shot is fired"....and I swear that is what I think of when I look at roman's O sometimes.
Originally posted by iLL49er:
you have at most 3 seconds before the rush hits you in the nfl...so most plays you don't have time to sit back and scan for 5-7secs and pick a wr...most plays a qb goes through 1-2 reads and that's about all they have time for.

Agreed, naturally, and a benefit for the OL, getting the ball out under 3 seconds is the goal everytime unless you play for Denver or New England where even 8 seconds isn't out of the question. LOL.

The difference here is that if we ran a WCO, progression reads are built in on every level and are, by design, opening up in line with the QB's drops anf timing. For instance, in the WCO, your progression reads are high-to-low...primary read is usually the deeper routes, then the TE in the intermediate soft zone, then finally, the RB/FB's as outlets/check downs. CK does not get this at all. A spread offense is usually left-to-right or vice versa. I believe (one) of the reasons HaRoman went with CK was b/c he's so athletically gifted over Alex (and Alex is no slouch). They know that ball needs to be out under 3 seconds and if not, CK is the kind of athlete who can then buy time with his legs and either ad lib pass or run for a first down (obviously, we saw this all game long against the Bucs).

But you can watch any of our passing plays and see there are no real progressions built in for the QB. We've only recently started to flare out all the RB/FB's as outlets now.
Originally posted by pasodoc9er:
Still, NC, when you see one of our WRs or TEs or RBs out on a pattern and not even looking back, it sure as heck shows our OC is one helluva lot less talented than those of SEA, N.O., PATS, Philly, Peyton(not Fox), and Panthers. All the OCs of those teams have any receiver blocking or not, looking at the qb, or the ball. Somehow, roman doesn't do that. It's fine to have an AR 1 or 2, but still, if a guy is a receiver, you teach them to look back for the ball after a block, just in case your QB is in trouble. We have seen routes run where guys were not AR1 and they really never got their heads in the play.

When the Qb is taking 7-9 steps drops( and kap almost always does... a bad habit he needs to break) and our OL blocks for the first 3 of those, he is by necessity going to need help, in that pass pro has broken down. Just some simple stuff like that....SEA is famous for it, Saints and Pats the same. Here it seems to happen on occasion, and obviously is not taught. It is like roman has a one track mind, and everything in his play is always going to go off like he expected. Funny how a guy could be a NFL OC and not teach that...or rather, be oblivious to things not working out exactly as scripted.

In the military they have a saying that "Every perfectly laid battle plan goes perfectly...right up until the first shot is fired"....and I swear that is what I think of when I look at roman's O sometimes.

Agreed, and this is more evidence to this theory...we have no hot reads built in. And coaching...I agree, the non-AR's can still play their role WHILE keeping an eye in the backfield just in case CK is on ad lib-mode. Now, I understand often times, a receiver gets caught in no-man's land b/c they don't know whether to disengage from defenders and become a passing option for CK or block him out if CK chooses to run. But yes, CLEARLY, you can see non-AR's with their backs turned, some on the other side of the field standing there, half-assing it, etc. Clearly this in an area not stressed very well...I think their primary focus has been on executing the play right the first time so much they didn't bother focusing on when the play broke down; almost like, "We are an intermediate passing team...if we don't get it this down, we'll get it on the next...just don't turn it over." It sure seemed like that. That said, Crabtree, VD and Boldin are all very good at ad libbing (so was Miller) so now we're seeing a big jump in success here (b/c those guys are getting isolated more with all the weapons together at once on the field).

PS: Given that almost ALL passes are @ or under 3 seconds, it would be simple as a non-AR to count in their head (if required to block out a DB) to 3 and then turn. At 3, everyone needs to have their head back and work with CK if the initial AR didn't work. So simple. Instead, we've looked like a cluster eff if that pass doesn't come out right away...
[ Edited by NCommand on Dec 17, 2013 at 10:57 AM ]
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Originally posted by NCommand:
Harbaugh on "play clock issue:"

http://www.49ers.com/news/article-2/Morning-Tailgate-Jim-Harbaugh-Quiets-Play-Clock-Concerns/786e1113-b60f-4c38-aa53-d8e07101f789

No surprise to us...it's a strategy by design to burn the clock as much as possible. Slow the game down.

Some had guestimated that we do this to get the defense to "show their hand" but I'm not sure of that now. Maybe?


what a stupid answer by Harbaugh